On Pogroms

[Numar Patru]

I've already noted that Jews came to the European continent and engaged with European peoples for the primary purpose of making a living doing what they'd done for centuries as a diaspora people, which was to ally themselves with local rulers and use their considerable wealth and experience in financial instruments to make money lending it out at interest, among other things.

That’s ahistorical. Jews came into Europe during the Greek period, before the advent of Rome. You have hundreds of years to account for before you get to anything like what you describe.

All that being said, Jews distinguish themselves from other diaspora peoples in that they do not fit the mold of a regular middleman minority.

Really? How do? How are Armenians or Greeks or Indians or overseas Chinese different from Jews? Be specific.

[Numar Patru]

But when some moron says, “Jews in Europe were generally engaged in exploitative financial practices from the very get-go,” I want some responsible sourcing or an admission that one is making unfounded generalizations.

Watch your language. I sourced my claim and you became very upset. Either engage with the argument or get out.

Spitting out secondhand citations from Joyce without even acknowledging you’re doing so is neither “sourcing your claim” nor making an argument.

[Archie]

But when some moron says, “Jews in Europe were generally engaged in exploitative financial practices from the very get-go,” I want some responsible sourcing or an admission that one is making unfounded generalizations.

Watch your language. I sourced my claim and you became very upset. Either engage with the argument or get out.

Spitting out secondhand citations from Joyce without even acknowledging you’re doing so is neither “sourcing your claim” nor making an argument.

Where are your citations? You've presented no evidence for your views. You have not even stated a coherent thesis. You've just shrieked hysterically about anti-Semitism.

[Numar Patru]

It’s necessary to first wade through and refute the bullshit. The idea that Jews arrived in Europe 2,500 years ago acting as a middleman minority and lending money on interest just isn’t historically accurate. If you want to discuss the dynamics of middleman minorities or when Jews got into money lending, we can do that, but we can’t get anywhere in an environment of pure misinformation.

[Archie]

Of course I can see these things as exploitive. That’s not the point.

I object to the idea that Jews came into Europe 2,000 years ago intending to fleece the whole “white” population. Certainly by the Middle Ages, money lending was part of Jewish life. My questions are when it became this way and why.

If your answer or the answer of curioussoul is that it’s in Jews’ nature to do these things, then you should say so. Otherwise, there is a conversation to be had.

That very much is the point. People have made similar complaints about Jews across countries and across centuries. That they are insular. That they are overly legalistic/dishonest. That they are greedy. That they screw people over. That they are extremely ethnocentric and view their Gentile neighbors as marks and as inferiors. People don't say these things about, say, Polynesians. Because it obviously doesn't apply. You can dismiss some of these things as unfair "stereotypes" but stereotypes don't fall randomly out of the sky. You get a roughly similar picture from more formal sources as well.

For a more theoretical treatment of these issues (not really necessary, imo), these would be some common suggestions.

Kevin MacDonald, A People That Shall Dwell Alone: Judaism as a Group Evolutionary Strategy
Kevin MacDonald, Separation and Its Discontents: Toward an Evolutionary Theory of Anti-Semitism
Israel Shahak, Jewish History, Jewish Religion: The Weight of Three Thousand Years
Albert Lindemann, Esau's Tears: Modern Anti-Semitism and the Rise of the Jew

[Archie]

It’s necessary to first wade through and refute the bullshit. The idea that Jews arrived in Europe 2,500 years ago acting as a middleman minority and lending money on interest just isn’t historically accurate. If you want to discuss the dynamics of middleman minorities or when Jews got into money lending, we can do that, but we can’t get anywhere in an environment of pure misinformation.

Naw, you aren't presenting anything yourself because you don't want to do any work and you know we will demolish it. You are instead sitting back, demanding others provide you with citations which you can then dismiss for arbitrary reasons (like your idea that any source used by Joyce is automatically invalid).

[Numar Patru]

It’s necessary to first wade through and refute the bullshit. The idea that Jews arrived in Europe 2,500 years ago acting as a middleman minority and lending money on interest just isn’t historically accurate. If you want to discuss the dynamics of middleman minorities or when Jews got into money lending, we can do that, but we can’t get anywhere in an environment of pure misinformation.

Naw, you aren't presenting anything yourself because you don't want to do any work and you know we will demolish it. You are instead sitting back, demanding others provide you with citations which you can then dismiss for arbitrary reasons (like your idea that any source used by Joyce is automatically invalid).

Get over yourself.

[Numar Patru]

Of course I can see these things as exploitive. That’s not the point.

I object to the idea that Jews came into Europe 2,000 years ago intending to fleece the whole “white” population. Certainly by the Middle Ages, money lending was part of Jewish life. My questions are when it became this way and why.

If your answer or the answer of curioussoul is that it’s in Jews’ nature to do these things, then you should say so. Otherwise, there is a conversation to be had.

That very much is the point.

For fuck’s sake…

[Stubble]

Before 1492? Has anybody mentioned the gates of Toledo or any of the child saints? Well poisoning? Usury? Usurpation?

I'm sure it's just because I'm amalek though and should be destroyed, right? Even the best of us should be destroyed...

There's also an incompatible moral framework. I mean, how did jews come to know that if you violate a female child under 3 her hyman will grow back? There had to be trial and error involved with the reasoning out of that.

Did you know that in 1963 George Lincoln Rockwell was approached by a senators wife and told about tunnels under chabad centers? That's an oddly specific claim isn't it? But I'm sure it was just some bored kids dealing with covid right? When New Yorkers were being arrested for going to church, because that was congregation...Not something that jews have been doing for, well, thousands of years. Then there is the complete lack of any interest in any investigation. Just be like a cat and cover it up, with
cement. That reminds me of the time in 1989 that a young girls remains were found in the basement of a synagogue in New York, and rather than investigating it, the NYPD collected and removed the remains and nothing ever came of it. I can just imagine what would happen if a dead body were found in the basement of my church. Nothing to see here though, just move along, right? The patron saint of the ADL being a murdering pedophile that is venerated by the community at large is kind of hair raising too, I mean, it puts my hackles up.

I realize that's all a bit later that 1492, but, we live in a new world you see. Where the disputation of Paris is mocked while the book 'jesus in the talmud' is printed and sold.

Jewish behavior, jewish ethnocentrism, jewish isolationism, jewish hypocrisy and jewish arrogance lead to pogroms. After 109 expulsions and who knows how many pogroms, maybe, just maybe, a look at the reflection in the mirror is warranted.

[Numar Patru]

You actually believe Jews poisoned wells or murdered children for their blood?

Jesus, you people used to be able to mask your hatred better.

[Stubble]

I am not 'you people' I am an individual and my views are my own.

Jewish ritual murder has been documented throughout history and evidence of it remains in north Africa, centering in and around Carthage for instance. Then there are the references in the old testament itself, or Torah if you prefer.

Child sex trafficking in Israel is undeniable and established fact. The are a prime purveyor of child slavery. Also, illicit organ trafficking is undeniable and established.

With well poisoning, this too is documented. Of course, I'm told that my ancestors were antisemitic liars. I choose to take their word for it.



Again, everywhere jews go, this pattern follows. We can argue about if the people who engage in the practice are jews or those who call themselves jews but are not, as that is debatable. These people call themselves jews however and so, I call them jews as well.

For someone to posit that there is a uniform global conspiracy against jews to uniformly defame them with the blood libel boggles the mind. It truly does.

Again, jewish behavior is the root of anti jewish sentiment.

That's putting aside the statements about wanted to absolutely destroy my people as a people. To erase us from the earth. Delving in to that one would merit another thread and perhaps a change of venue as it is not the topic of discussion for this forum.

Now, at some point, someone will say something to the effect of 'you had predrawn conclusions and that's why you don't believe in the holocaust' or something to that effect about my anti jewish sentiment being the reasons for my holocaust denial.

Let me nip that one in the bud, that's putting the cart before the horse. My doubt of the holocaust precedes my anti jewish sentiment and the two are not wholly related. While the concepts are not mutually exclusive, they also do not necessarily have to exist together.

So far as a desire to mask or hide my views and sentiments, I don't, obviously. I don't think anyone who is actually aware does. I'll let Dan explain;

[Numar Patru]

For someone to posit that there is a uniform global conspiracy against jews to uniformly defame them with the blood libel boggles the mind. It truly does.

Literally no one claims that and there doesn’t need to be a conspiracy. You’ll note that the claim doesn’t go back all that far given how long Jewish history is. When it becomes common, it becomes common only where Jews live among Christians. It is not insignificant that Jews are considered to be a cursed people among Christians. Widespread violence against all non-Catholics was common during the Crusades. Unsurprisingly, blood libel emerges right around the same time.

How, imagine you’re a pedophile in medieval England. You’ve raped a young boy and killed him so he can’t tell anyone what you did to him, but the body is found and someone needs to be blamed. Why not blame the Jews? They’re hated anyway and people don’t really understand their beliefs, so is anyone really going to raise an eye? If one or two such claims are successfully made, pedos can have a field day with kids and blaming the Jews. Throw the printing press into it and news of it spreading, and accusations will arise from misunderstandings or sheer malice rather than actual harm.

So no conspiracy necessary and that’s a perfectly logical explanation for where the charges come from.

[Stubble]

If Christians wanted to persecute jews, they wouldn't rape and murder children to do it. What a crazy conspiracy theory that is. What's less would jews confess to the murders.

The tales of jewish ritual murder are not confined to christian nations either.

I'm reasonably sure this dialogue will not be constructive.

[Numar Patru]

If Christians wanted to persecute jews, they wouldn't rape and murder children to do it.

No one said that. Are you able to read?

The tales of jewish ritual murder are not confined to christian nations either.

They are almost entirely confined to Christian countries. A handful from other places. If it were the case that this was common Jewish behavior, it would have appeared much earlier and everywhere Jews lived.

I'm reasonably sure this dialogue will not be constructive.

Then don’t participate. But if you think you’re going to make truly bizarre claims and not be challenged, you have another thing coming.

[Stubble]

I read fine.

So far as bizarre claims go, saying Christians frame jews for murdering children is up there man.

You claim that this is confined to medieval Europe. That's simply not true. Ritual child murder is covered in the bible. It is described by early greeks. Evidence is in the archeological record.

The first time I brought this fact up, you didn't even address it. Instead you said it was post crusades, Christian exclusive and then you claimed it was the work of child murdering pedophiles that were scapegoating jews.

If the defense is that my ancestors were intolerant liars, and scapegoating pedophiles, imagine my surprise when you say I'm the one making 'truly bizarre claims'.

Jews however protect jewish pedophiles from justice. Today.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/how-jewish ... in-israel/

https://search.brave.com/search?q=Jewis ... ce=android

This list could go on and on.

If we are dealing in hypotheticals, imagine being a descended from blood drinking pedophiles and telling descendants of people who sought justice that it is their fault.

/shrug