The HC Blog 'Auschwitz Index'

[Stubble]

'Wirths memo asks for an undressing room and space for post mortems and to store files. Should file storage and post mortems be added to the revisionist list of what the Kremas were used for, bomb shelter, shower, delousing chamber and corpse store.'

Of course, because they were used for postmortem in the autopsy room at ground level and correspondent paperwork was also stored there, both in a portion of the autopsy room and in the offices.

I have yet to see any reliable evidence that there was a shower in the Kremas II and III.

Wirths proposed a heat exchanger and boiler using the flue gas, but, to my knowledge, those aspirations were dashed. You probably have correspondent memoranda in this HC blog post...

That's not the damn point though, this Wirths memo has nothing, absolutely nothing, to do with lk#2 being used as an undressing room. The idea that it is presented here as such 'because I would have found it' is ridiculous...you presented it as proof that lk#2 was used as an undressing room, and the blog presents it that way. That assertion is a demonstrable lie...

Stop lying to me about it, and stop peddling lies. The truth is sufficient, whatever it may be.

[Nessie]

'Wirths memo asks for an undressing room and space for post mortems and to store files. Should file storage and post mortems be added to the revisionist list of what the Kremas were used for, bomb shelter, shower, delousing chamber and corpse store.'

Of course, because they were used for postmortem in the autopsy room at ground level and correspondent paperwork was also stored there, both in a portion of the autopsy room and in the offices.

I have yet to see any reliable evidence that there was a shower in the Kremas II and III.

Wirths proposed a heat exchanger and boiler using the flue gas, but, to my knowledge, those aspirations were dashed. You probably have correspondent memoranda in this HC blog post...

That's not the damn point though, this Wirths memo has nothing, absolutely nothing, to do with lk#2 being used as an undressing room. The idea that it is presented here as such 'because I would have found it' is ridiculous...you presented it as proof that lk#2 was used as an undressing room, and the blog presents it that way. That assertion is a demonstrable lie...

Stop lying to me about it, and stop peddling lies. The truth is sufficient, whatever it may be.

There is corroborating documentary, witness and circumstantial evidence that the Kremas had undressing rooms, for people to use before they were gassed.

[Stubble]

'Wirths memo asks for an undressing room and space for post mortems and to store files. Should file storage and post mortems be added to the revisionist list of what the Kremas were used for, bomb shelter, shower, delousing chamber and corpse store.'

Of course, because they were used for postmortem in the autopsy room at ground level and correspondent paperwork was also stored there, both in a portion of the autopsy room and in the offices.

I have yet to see any reliable evidence that there was a shower in the Kremas II and III.

Wirths proposed a heat exchanger and boiler using the flue gas, but, to my knowledge, those aspirations were dashed. You probably have correspondent memoranda in this HC blog post...

That's not the damn point though, this Wirths memo has nothing, absolutely nothing, to do with lk#2 being used as an undressing room. The idea that it is presented here as such 'because I would have found it' is ridiculous...you presented it as proof that lk#2 was used as an undressing room, and the blog presents it that way. That assertion is a demonstrable lie...

Stop lying to me about it, and stop peddling lies. The truth is sufficient, whatever it may be.

There is corroborating documentary, witness and circumstantial evidence that the Kremas had undressing rooms, for people to use before they were gassed.

What the shit does this statement have to do with Wirths memo or what I said? You tried to frame that memo as such proof. That's demonstrably false. It was in no way related to lk#2 being an undressing room. Your misframing, was a lie. You lied about this document, whether intentionally or unintentionally.

The blog post did too.

[Nessie]

'Wirths memo asks for an undressing room and space for post mortems and to store files. Should file storage and post mortems be added to the revisionist list of what the Kremas were used for, bomb shelter, shower, delousing chamber and corpse store.'

Of course, because they were used for postmortem in the autopsy room at ground level and correspondent paperwork was also stored there, both in a portion of the autopsy room and in the offices.

I have yet to see any reliable evidence that there was a shower in the Kremas II and III.

Wirths proposed a heat exchanger and boiler using the flue gas, but, to my knowledge, those aspirations were dashed. You probably have correspondent memoranda in this HC blog post...

That's not the damn point though, this Wirths memo has nothing, absolutely nothing, to do with lk#2 being used as an undressing room. The idea that it is presented here as such 'because I would have found it' is ridiculous...you presented it as proof that lk#2 was used as an undressing room, and the blog presents it that way. That assertion is a demonstrable lie...

Stop lying to me about it, and stop peddling lies. The truth is sufficient, whatever it may be.

There is corroborating documentary, witness and circumstantial evidence that the Kremas had undressing rooms, for people to use before they were gassed.

What the shit does this statement have to do with Wirths memo or what I said? You tried to frame that memo as such proof.

No, I did not. You are failing to understand the difference between evidence and proof and what it takes to prove something. One piece of evidence is rarely proof of anything. An event as large as the Holocaust needs a lot of evidence, of which the Withrs memo is just a tiny, not very important part.

That's demonstrably false. It was in no way related to lk#2 being an undressing room. Your misframing, was a lie. You lied about this document, whether intentionally or unintentionally.

The blog post did too.

Wirths memo is part of the evidence as to what was being planned for the Kremas in early 1943. There are five documents in the index that reference undressing in relation to the Kremas. Can you show me a plan for a crematorium, any, modern day, 1940s, or otherwise, that has an undressing room?

[Stubble]

There is corroborating documentary, witness and circumstantial evidence that the Kremas had undressing rooms, for people to use before they were gassed.

What the shit does this statement have to do with Wirths memo or what I said? You tried to frame that memo as such proof.

No, I did not. You are failing to understand the difference between evidence and proof and what it takes to prove something. One piece of evidence is rarely proof of anything. An event as large as the Holocaust needs a lot of evidence, of which the Withrs memo is just a tiny, not very important part.

That's demonstrably false. It was in no way related to lk#2 being an undressing room. Your misframing, was a lie. You lied about this document, whether intentionally or unintentionally.

The blog post did too.

Wirths memo is part of the evidence as to what was being planned for the Kremas in early 1943. There are five documents in the index that reference undressing in relation to the Kremas. Can you show me a plan for a crematorium, any, modern day, 1940s, or otherwise, that has an undressing room?

You are missing my point Nessie, and you are digging a hole.

The Wirths memo is proof, that Wirths wanted a space in the vestibule for the undressing of corpses. Likely for hygiene reasons, to keep lice in the main building as minimal as possible...

Then you act like there was no autopsy room in the Kremas, and like they didn't have to store 3 copies of certificates of death.

Now, this whole 'let me explain how evidence works to you' thing.

This memo isn't evidence. Ask a judge. You were just some copper.

[Nessie]

....
Wirths memo is part of the evidence as to what was being planned for the Kremas in early 1943. There are five documents in the index that reference undressing in relation to the Kremas. Can you show me a plan for a crematorium, any, modern day, 1940s, or otherwise, that has an undressing room?

You are missing my point Nessie, and you are digging a hole.

The Wirths memo is proof, that Wirths wanted a space in the vestibule for the undressing of corpses.

Which is part of the evidence gathered in relation to the plans for the Kremas in early 1943. Or do you want to continue with cherry-picking evidence?

Likely for hygiene reasons, to keep lice in the main building as minimal as possible...

I have been to plenty of mortuaries and none had a room specifically for undressing corpses. Corpses were undressed for refrigeration, or during postmortems, where clothing was to be seized as part of the evidence of a crime.

Then you act like there was no autopsy room in the Kremas, and like they didn't have to store 3 copies of certificates of death.

The Krema was evidenced to have been converted to have an undressing room and gas chambers. Please evidence it was also the store for death certificates.

Now, this whole 'let me explain how evidence works to you' thing.

This memo isn't evidence. Ask a judge. You were just some copper.

A memo can be documentary evidence.

[Stubble]

You completely misunderstand again. Furthermore now you ask me to delve outside the thread topic and prove to you that autopsies and death certificates were done at the krema?

This is ridiculous.

If you want me to show you evidence of that, start another thread.

Currently, we were talking about the Wirths memo from mid February asking for an undressing room in the vestibule. You have gone from 'well, you would have found it so it is in this list' to 'it is totally relevant'.

We will move on. Nothing more will be gleaned from discourse About this memo.

I suggest we pivot to your assertion that lk#1 was heated.

What are the documents in this blog that you feel support that theory.

[Nessie]

You completely misunderstand again. Furthermore now you ask me to delve outside the thread topic and prove to you that autopsies and death certificates were done at the krema?

This is ridiculous.

If you want me to show you evidence of that, start another thread.

Oh, the horror, you, evidencing what happened inside the Kremas!

Currently, we were talking about the Wirths memo from mid February asking for an undressing room in the vestibule. You have gone from 'well, you would have found it so it is in this list' to 'it is totally relevant'.

We will move on. Nothing more will be gleaned from discourse About this memo.

To ascertain the relevance, or meaning of a document that refers to a Krema, one should look at other evidence as to what happened. That is how I know "special" action or treatment meant gassing, since gassings are evidenced to have happened. Not showering, or storing documents, or what ever else revisionists come up with, that they cannot evidence happened!

I suggest we pivot to your assertion that lk#1 was heated.

What are the documents in this blog that you feel support that theory.

https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... ce-on.html

"Letter from Karl Bischoff to Topf of 6 March 1943 on “preheating cellar 1” and “undressing room” in crematorium 2 and 3 [Pressac, Technique, p. 433]

"Memo of 25 March 1943 on “hot air supply device for corpse cellar 1” in crematorium 2 [Pressac, Technique, p. 230]"

"Material list of 13 April 1943 on “extension of the aeration and deaeration device (warm air supply) of the crematorium II” [Rudolf Report, 2nd edition]"

[Stubble]

'Oh, the horror, you, evidencing what happened inside the Kremas!'

No Nessie, that isn't the issue here. It is thread derailment. Let's stick to topic.

I've got some irons in the fire, so, I'll have to come back later to address the rest of your post. I want to get this out of the way here and now though.

Start another thread for that. It isn't part of the debate in this thread. At all. We are talking about the HC blog in the original post. We are not talking about tangentially related claims you want to explore. That's what other threads are for.

I am making a real effort here to keep us on topic and inside the forum rules.

[Stubble]

You completely misunderstand again. Furthermore now you ask me to delve outside the thread topic and prove to you that autopsies and death certificates were done at the krema?

This is ridiculous.

If you want me to show you evidence of that, start another thread.

Oh, the horror, you, evidencing what happened inside the Kremas!

Currently, we were talking about the Wirths memo from mid February asking for an undressing room in the vestibule. You have gone from 'well, you would have found it so it is in this list' to 'it is totally relevant'.

We will move on. Nothing more will be gleaned from discourse About this memo.

To ascertain the relevance, or meaning of a document that refers to a Krema, one should look at other evidence as to what happened. That is how I know "special" action or treatment meant gassing, since gassings are evidenced to have happened. Not showering, or storing documents, or what ever else revisionists come up with, that they cannot evidence happened!

I suggest we pivot to your assertion that lk#1 was heated.

What are the documents in this blog that you feel support that theory.

https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... ce-on.html

"Letter from Karl Bischoff to Topf of 6 March 1943 on “preheating cellar 1” and “undressing room” in crematorium 2 and 3 [Pressac, Technique, p. 433]

"Memo of 25 March 1943 on “hot air supply device for corpse cellar 1” in crematorium 2 [Pressac, Technique, p. 230]"

"Material list of 13 April 1943 on “extension of the aeration and deaeration device (warm air supply) of the crematorium II” [Rudolf Report, 2nd edition]"

Looking at the drafts and plans, the supply side and the exhaust side of the ventilation for the basement referred to as lk#1 are tied in to the 3 draft inducers (warm air fans) for the crematoria.

I'm having trouble finding exactly where the fresh air side ties in (these prints, they are, not very good, but my difficulty is likely a result of the exhaust side being where the ventilation system ties in to the motor, and the fresh air supply side likely used natural draft to bring in fresh air.). Given the duct design that I can see, there is no introduction of warm air into lk#1. They are just using the inducers to run the ventilation system, rather than having another pair of motors.

There is also a reference to compressed air.

If you look at the drafts and plans, you will see that the warm air motors being referenced are the inducer motors, and that they are not piped to supply flue gas or warmed air to the lk.

/shrug

These appear to me to be big nothingburgers.

[Nessie]

....

These appear to me to be big nothingburgers.

Of course they do. You are programmed to find excuses to disregard any evidence that does not suit you. The result is you end up with no witnesses, documents or anything to evidence and so prove what did happen inside the Kremas. That means you fail at the basic task of any historian, chronologically evidencing what happened.

The documents in the index do not describe a process normally associated with a crematorium, that takes in corpses and cremates them. The documents describe a whole series of other processes that clearly indicate people arrived alive, they undressed, were gassed and then cremated.

[Stubble]

I beg your pardon?

Sir, you need to address the fact that the warm air motors referenced in the memoranda are the inducer motors on the main stack. If I am mistaken, feel free to correct me.

I'm not going to argue that you are stuck in a logical fallacy or strawman you or misrepresent your stance and opinions here, I request the same courtesy.

Please and thank you.

More to the point, these memoranda are nothingburgers. Their content and composition refer not to some supplemental heating system for the corpse cellar, but are a very disgruntled redress of grievance regarding the failure of the inducers.

I need to find better drafts of the adopted ventilation plans, because what I have has no space in it for the fresh air fan, or for the exhaust fan. The whole ventilation system was tied in to the inducers according to the plans as presented by JCP.

[Nessie]

I beg your pardon?

Sir, you need to address the fact that the warm air motors referenced in the memoranda are the inducer motors on the main stack. If I am mistaken, feel free to correct me.

I'm not going to argue that you are stuck in a logical fallacy or strawman you or misrepresent your stance and opinions here, I request the same courtesy.

Please and thank you.

More to the point, these memoranda are nothingburgers. Their content and composition refer not to some supplemental heating system for the corpse cellar, but are a very disgruntled redress of grievance regarding the failure of the inducers.

I need to find better drafts of the adopted ventilation plans, because what I have has no space in it for the fresh air fan, or for the exhaust fan. The whole ventilation system was tied in to the inducers according to the plans as presented by JCP.

Please find me another crematorium that had undressing rooms, gas chambers and oven to cremate multiple corpses at the same time, for a special action that involved people arriving alive and having all their property taken from them.

[Stubble]

I beg your pardon?

Sir, you need to address the fact that the warm air motors referenced in the memoranda are the inducer motors on the main stack. If I am mistaken, feel free to correct me.

I'm not going to argue that you are stuck in a logical fallacy or strawman you or misrepresent your stance and opinions here, I request the same courtesy.

Please and thank you.

More to the point, these memoranda are nothingburgers. Their content and composition refer not to some supplemental heating system for the corpse cellar, but are a very disgruntled redress of grievance regarding the failure of the inducers.

I need to find better drafts of the adopted ventilation plans, because what I have has no space in it for the fresh air fan, or for the exhaust fan. The whole ventilation system was tied in to the inducers according to the plans as presented by JCP.

Please find me another crematorium that had undressing rooms, gas chambers and oven to cremate multiple corpses at the same time, for a special action that involved people arriving alive and having all their property taken from them.

Please do not deviate from our specific dialogue and address the content of my posts.

[Nessie]

I beg your pardon?

Sir, you need to address the fact that the warm air motors referenced in the memoranda are the inducer motors on the main stack. If I am mistaken, feel free to correct me.

I'm not going to argue that you are stuck in a logical fallacy or strawman you or misrepresent your stance and opinions here, I request the same courtesy.

Please and thank you.

More to the point, these memoranda are nothingburgers. Their content and composition refer not to some supplemental heating system for the corpse cellar, but are a very disgruntled redress of grievance regarding the failure of the inducers.

I need to find better drafts of the adopted ventilation plans, because what I have has no space in it for the fresh air fan, or for the exhaust fan. The whole ventilation system was tied in to the inducers according to the plans as presented by JCP.

Please find me another crematorium that had undressing rooms, gas chambers and oven to cremate multiple corpses at the same time, for a special action that involved people arriving alive and having all their property taken from them.

Please do not deviate from our specific dialogue and address the content of my posts.

You say documents about warm air are nothingburgers. Show me another crematorium that operates with what the documents record as being installed inside the Kremas. You know you cannot, and that is why you now want to control what I discuss. You must know that corpse storage is refrigerated, not warmed.