The HC Blog 'Auschwitz Index'

[Stubble]

On January 21, 1943, the SS-Standortarzt (garrison surgeon) of Auschwitz, SSHauptsturmführer Eduard Wirths, wrote a letter to the camp commander:105 “1. The SS garrison surgeon at Auschwitz requests to install a partition in the dissecting hall planned for the new crematorium building at Birkenau, dividing the hall into 2 rooms of equal size and to have 1 or 2 wash basins installed in the first of these rooms, because the latter will be needed as an autopsy room, whereas the 2nd room will be needed for anatomical preparations, for the preservation of files and writing materials and books, for the preparation of colored tissue sections and for work with the microscope. 2. Furthermore it is requested to provide for an ‘undressing room’ [Auskleideraum] in the cellar rooms.”

Dude. There is your source. Right there.

What part of that refers to lk#2? No part of it does. No part.

The rest, dude, let's start here. We will take this one at a time. Let's start with this document right here.

Wirths is requesting that he be given part of one of the new Kremas to be built in 1943, for his medical studies. That did not happen, as there is no evidence to corroborate he worked there, autopsies took place and that files were kept there. There is corroboration that an undressing room was built.

How does this memo in any way relate to the claim that lk#2 was used as an undressing room for detainees to be gassed I. Lk#1?

That's the whole drive of the linked blog article.

I'm not even going to go into the fact than an autopsy room was built at ground level, because it has no bearing on this.

[blake121666]

What you wrote is pretty incoherent. You wrote:

You can overlap cremations for about 20 minutes during that post-combustion phase but that doesn't change that the actual cremation time stays around an hour per corpse

But then the average of the ensemble would be lower by your own logic, right? I'm telling you that the average on a per-corpse basis would actually be longer. Mattogno is confused and has not shown what you say, he has incorrectly ASSUMED that which the data he refers to tells otherwise.

The tally sheets show that the time intervals between corpse insertion could not have been longer than 40 minutes. And in the long run THAT is the average cremation rate - not longer than 1 per 40 minutes. THAT is what the documents he references are saying. No one should give a flying fuck what amount of time it takes any particular individual corpse to fully incinerate. At the end of the day a corpse was inserted into that muffle at time intervals not greater than 40 minutes.

You're conflating data from different contexts, specifically using a tally sheet from Gusen, which doesn't apply to Auschwitz-Birkenau. Mattogno's analysis focuses on the Topf furnaces at Birkenau, which had a vertical grate system requiring complete combustion of one corpse before introducing another, inherently limiting the process to about an hour per corpse. The 20-minute overlap during post-combustion doesn't change this fundamental limitation. Topf engineers Prüfer and Schultze confirmed during their interrogations that the cremation rate was indeed one corpse per muffle per hour. Moreover, the forced-draft system at Birkenau was shared among multiple furnaces, making it less effective than the dedicated system at Gusen. Your focus on insertion intervals does not account for the actual cremation time needed for each corpse, which remains constrained by the furnace's design, fuel consumption rates, and the less efficient forced-draft system at A-B.

I took yesterday off from Holocaust stuff.

I was referring to what Mattogno was referring to: the Gusen tally sheet. Nothing is known about the Birkenau grating but it is assumed it to be the same or similar to the gratings of Buchenwald's triple-muffle ovens. Such grating is not what you claim here. Mattogno has pictures in his book.

Pruefer was being cagey with his response. He correctly told SMERSH that the cremation time for 1 corpse was 1 hour and that 15 corpses could be cremated in one hour. This is correct in that if you inserted one corpse into each of the 15 muffles, those 15 corpses would take an hour to fully cremate. The procedures actually used were not that though. We are concerned with the throughput - not the cremation rate. But I am a broken record telling you that.

I cannot today find the actual Gusen tally sheet. Last year I lost ALL of my material in a fire. I had it in various backups which are all now lost. Can someone please post the Gusen tally sheet for me here? Mattogno incorrectly interprets that sheet. I will more correctly interpret that for you all here to show you where Mattogno goes wrong in his figuring on that - and in general.

[blake121666]

No that's the minimum.

"Mattogno misunderstood because...he just did OK??? I'm definitely not making shit up, trust me bro."


"I made this building not to collapse, so if I set it on fire it won't collapse."

We'll go over the Gusen tally sheet tomorrow, ok? The logic in it is trivially easy to understand. Then we will relate that logic to ALL the contemporary German estimates and ask if they were all wrong and instead Mattogno is right.

Is that a "he just did [misunderstand]" response in your brain?

The Gusen sheet is the single most damning document in existence regarding the efficiency of the crematoria because it proves without a shadow of a doubt that the fuel requirement per corpse was approximately 30 kg of coke, during continuous mass-cremation operations. Taking the Gusen sheet and combining the numbers with the completely unrelated Crematora III Handover Protocol from Birkenau and pretending that you've somehow managed to increase the efficiency tenfold is utterly absurdly.

I said nothing whatsoever about coke consumption. That's a different issue. Someone please start a thread on the Gusen tally sheet with the sheet in the OP. I can't find it myself.

It's curious to me that anyone should be concerned about coke consumption so much. Auschwitz had plenty of coke available to it. Those who think otherwise are simply wrong about that. But let's stick to the oven throughput question for now.

And ALL mass cremations were continuous. Such is how to run those cremation ovens. The downtimes were short and consisted of scraping the slag off the gasifier grates - as the operating manuals say. Oven cool-down would not be done if there were still corpses to cremate. Thinking otherwise is a misunderstanding of those cremation ovens - and not what the operating manuals say.

[Stubble]

Someone please start a thread on the Gusen tally sheet with the sheet in the OP. I can't find it myself.

Done.

https://www.codohforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=170

[Nessie]

On January 21, 1943, the SS-Standortarzt (garrison surgeon) of Auschwitz, SSHauptsturmführer Eduard Wirths, wrote a letter to the camp commander:105 “1. The SS garrison surgeon at Auschwitz requests to install a partition in the dissecting hall planned for the new crematorium building at Birkenau, dividing the hall into 2 rooms of equal size and to have 1 or 2 wash basins installed in the first of these rooms, because the latter will be needed as an autopsy room, whereas the 2nd room will be needed for anatomical preparations, for the preservation of files and writing materials and books, for the preparation of colored tissue sections and for work with the microscope. 2. Furthermore it is requested to provide for an ‘undressing room’ [Auskleideraum] in the cellar rooms.”

Dude. There is your source. Right there.

What part of that refers to lk#2? No part of it does. No part.

The rest, dude, let's start here. We will take this one at a time. Let's start with this document right here.

Wirths is requesting that he be given part of one of the new Kremas to be built in 1943, for his medical studies. That did not happen, as there is no evidence to corroborate he worked there, autopsies took place and that files were kept there. There is corroboration that an undressing room was built.

How does this memo in any way relate to the claim that lk#2 was used as an undressing room for detainees to be gassed I. Lk#1?

That's the whole drive of the linked blog article.

I'm not even going to go into the fact than an autopsy room was built at ground level, because it has no bearing on this.

It is possibly unrelated to the plans that developed the gas chambers. However, Wirths could have just missed out any reference to gassings, so the process was undressing, gassing and then he gets the corpses for autopsies

[Stubble]

Wait, you think they autopsied the gassing victims? They issue the death certificates in triplicate too? Or na?

[blake121666]

Someone please start a thread on the Gusen tally sheet with the sheet in the OP. I can't find it myself.

Done.

https://www.codohforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=170

Great! I'll now read Mattogno's chapter on this and give my interpretation - which is most likely going to be the same as his with a slightly different nuance. Most likely an interpretation of corpse loading after main combustion - NOT full incineration. I expect that will be the only difference but it has been years since I've looked this over and vaguely recall that there are issues with ANY interpretation of this thing. There are a couple head scratchers in there which can only be given a little handwaving, iirc.

[Nessie]

Wait, you think they autopsied the gassing victims? They issue the death certificates in triplicate too? Or na?

[Stubble]

Then what in the hell does this memo from Wirths have to do with the assertion that lk#2 was an undressing room for people to be gassed in lk#1?

I mean, seriously. You are the one who said they wanted to autopsy gassing victims. That was all you, not me. Rolling your eyes doesn't change that. It is a distraction form the point.

That memo has jack and shit to do with an undressing room in lk#2, and jack left town.

[Nessie]

Then what in the hell does this memo from Wirths have to do with the assertion that lk#2 was an undressing room for people to be gassed in lk#1?

I mean, seriously. You are the one who said they wanted to autopsy gassing victims. That was all you, not me. Rolling your eyes doesn't change that. It is a distraction form the point.

That memo has jack and shit to do with an undressing room in lk#2, and jack left town.

It is evidence an undressing room was being planned for the Krema. Can you show me a mortuary, where autopsies are performed, that has an undressing room?

[Stubble]

Then what in the hell does this memo from Wirths have to do with the assertion that lk#2 was an undressing room for people to be gassed in lk#1?

I mean, seriously. You are the one who said they wanted to autopsy gassing victims. That was all you, not me. Rolling your eyes doesn't change that. It is a distraction form the point.

That memo has jack and shit to do with an undressing room in lk#2, and jack left town.

It is evidence an undressing room was being planned for the Krema. Can you show me a mortuary, where autopsies are performed, that has an undressing room?

What, part, of, that, memo, refers, to, lk#2, being, an, undressing room?

If I recall correctly, plate 17 of the blueprints has the proposed (though never realised) undressing room in the vestibule between lk#1 and lk#2. That's not lk#2 being an undressing room.

This memo does not belong with the others, straight up.

[Callafangers]

This is correct in that if you inserted one corpse into each of the 15 muffles, those 15 corpses would take an hour to fully cremate. The procedures actually used were not that though. We are concerned with the throughput - not the cremation rate. But I am a broken record telling you that.

You keep saying it because you are not understanding that your position, here, has already been entirely invalidated. The throughput is constrained by the grate. It's a hard bottleneck, as I have already explained more than once and which you do not seem to be following.

[blake121666]

This is correct in that if you inserted one corpse into each of the 15 muffles, those 15 corpses would take an hour to fully cremate. The procedures actually used were not that though. We are concerned with the throughput - not the cremation rate. But I am a broken record telling you that.

You keep saying it because you are not understanding that your position, here, has already been entirely invalidated. The throughput is constrained by the grate. It's a hard bottleneck, as I have already explained more than once and which you do not seem to be following.

How many times do I have to tell you that you are wrong? Show us this grate you are mis-imagining in your mind in Mattogno's pictures, please. The corpse combusts into pieces - freeing room in the muffle REGARDLESS of any grate you are imagining (and whether there even was a grate at all). The collapsed corpse frees room. The space taken up by the burned fats is now entirely free, for one thing. The combusted corpse occupies significantly less room than the time before combustion. As its pieces shrink and incinerate, they drop through ANY size grating as soon as those pieces are small enough to do that. The ribcage would crush with the introduction of another corpse. I imagine skulls would take significantly more time, although I don't know.

And, btw, I showed you Topf's operating manual for their triple-muffle oven which says to insert more corpses after the main combustion. Just what are you saying here? Am I to believe you over the operating manual? What "hard bottleneck"? You are confused. You've shown nothing but confusion.

[Callafangers]

This is correct in that if you inserted one corpse into each of the 15 muffles, those 15 corpses would take an hour to fully cremate. The procedures actually used were not that though. We are concerned with the throughput - not the cremation rate. But I am a broken record telling you that.

You keep saying it because you are not understanding that your position, here, has already been entirely invalidated. The throughput is constrained by the grate. It's a hard bottleneck, as I have already explained more than once and which you do not seem to be following.

How many times do I have to tell you that you are wrong? Show us this grate you are mis-imagining in your mind in Mattogno's pictures, please. The corpse combusts into pieces - freeing room in the muffle REGARDLESS of any grate you are imagining (and whether there even was a grate at all). The collapsed corpse frees room. The space taken up by the burned fats is now entirely free, for one thing. The combusted corpse occupies significantly less room than the time before combustion. As its pieces shrink and incinerate, they drop through ANY size grating as soon as those pieces are small enough to do that. The ribcage would crush with the introduction of another corpse. I imagine skulls would take significantly more time, although I don't know.

The 33.3 kg/hr rate limits how fast the furnace can burn coke, not how quickly you can add bodies. This rate means about one body can be cremated per hour because the heat stays constant. Adding another body before the first one is done won't make things go faster; to the contrary, it can mess up the process and affect how well the furnace burns due to heat and airflow issues. The grate helps burn the coke and keep the temperature steady, and you can't really change its speed.

Auschwitz-Topf-Durations.jpg (158.78 KiB) Viewed 147 times

As I said before, your misunderstanding has been in the fundamentals of what Mattogno has conveyed, here. And keep in mind, there are additional variables which further work against cremations at a constant, hourly rate. Overall, the 'Holocaust' narrative at Auschwitz-Birkenau remains fully untenable.

EDIT: "Coke per corpse" should be labeled as being in kilograms (kg) on the table shown.

[blake121666]

You keep saying it because you are not understanding that your position, here, has already been entirely invalidated. The throughput is constrained by the grate. It's a hard bottleneck, as I have already explained more than once and which you do not seem to be following.

How many times do I have to tell you that you are wrong? Show us this grate you are mis-imagining in your mind in Mattogno's pictures, please. The corpse combusts into pieces - freeing room in the muffle REGARDLESS of any grate you are imagining (and whether there even was a grate at all). The collapsed corpse frees room. The space taken up by the burned fats is now entirely free, for one thing. The combusted corpse occupies significantly less room than the time before combustion. As its pieces shrink and incinerate, they drop through ANY size grating as soon as those pieces are small enough to do that. The ribcage would crush with the introduction of another corpse. I imagine skulls would take significantly more time, although I don't know.

The 33.3 kg/hr rate limits how fast the furnace can burn coke, not how quickly you can add bodies. This rate means about one body can be cremated per hour because the heat stays constant. Adding another body before the first one is done won't make things go faster; to the contrary, it can mess up the process and affect how well the furnace burns due to heat and airflow issues. The grate helps burn the coke and keep the temperature steady, and you can't really change its speed.


Auschwitz-Topf-Durations.jpg


As I said before, your misunderstanding has been in the fundamentals of what Mattogno has conveyed, here. And keep in mind, there are additional variables which further work against cremations at a constant, hourly rate. Overall, the 'Holocaust' narrative at Auschwitz-Birkenau remains fully untenable.

EDIT: "Coke per corpse" should be labeled as being in kilograms (kg) on the table shown.

I described to you over and over the cremation process. I am telling you that one or more corpses were added after the main combustion. The operating manual even says this.

You have not shown this to have not been done. You have not shown anything forbidding what I am saying.

And we can't be certain of the internals of Birkenau's triple-muffle ovens even being the same as Buchenwald's - but I'm ok with this assumption.

EDIT: And I am not misunderstanding a durned thing - you are. I am talking throughput and you keep misunderstanding its relation to incineration rate. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME.