The HC Blog 'Auschwitz Index'

[Stubble]

Uhm, the quotes I'm giving you, I can't find them in isolation, so I'm giving them to you at source, with page number.

All you have to do to vet them is look at them. You get the bonus of being able to see all of the context, because it's from source.

Holy crap, CODOH come in clutch!

Here buddy, here is a source for you.

https://codoh.com/library/document/the- ... -of-filip/

[Nessie]

Uhm, the quotes I'm giving you, I can't find them in isolation, so I'm giving them to you at source, with page number.

All you have to do to vet them is look at them. You get the bonus of being able to see all of the context, because it's from source.

When you said "'Eyewitness Auschwitz:Three Years in the Gas Chambers' pages 46-47" what is your source, or do you have the physical book and are quoting from that?

Holy crap, CODOH come in clutch!

Here buddy, here is a source for you.

https://codoh.com/library/document/the- ... -of-filip/

That is typical revisionist unsophisticated, determined to disbelieve, taking no account of witness evidence studies, critiquing of witness evidence. Whoever the author, Maria Temmer is, she has clearly never taken a witness statement, had any training in the taking of witness statements, or shows any knowledge of the numerous studies of witness memory and recollection.

[Stubble]

Correct, from source. The book. Muller's book.

That I cited.

Is what I am quoting.

With the corresponding page number.

You know, from the book.

[Nessie]

Correct, from source. The book. Muller's book.

That I cited.

Is what I am quoting.

With the corresponding page number.

You know, from the book.

Do you have the physical book, or do you have an online source link to the book you can share with me?

[Stubble]

Eyewitness Auschwitz is in the internet archive as is a Polish translation of The Death Factory.

Your local library likely has them as well, although I found page 158 vandalized and missing from 3 copies of the death factory, the only copies within 100 miles of my home, hence the polish translation provided by a member here.

[Stubble]

The tinned jews and references to nazis from Berlin licking their chops are from his testimony at the Polish Auschwitz trials.

It can be found in Mattogno's book 'sonderkommando 1' or in the original transcript.

I forget the page number. (I looked it up, it's page 18-19) It's there though, Muller said it, on the stand.

A clarification, he said they were shot, not gassed.

Surely we can agree nazi cannibals in Berlin is atrocity propaganda.

[Nessie]

The tinned jews and references to nazis from Berlin licking their chops are from his testimony at the Polish Auschwitz trials.

It can be found in Mattogno's book 'sonderkommando 1' or in the original transcript.

I forget the page number. (I looked it up, it's page 18-19) It's there though, Muller said it, on the stand.

A clarification, he said they were shot, not gassed.

Surely we can agree nazi cannibals in Berlin is atrocity propaganda.

Yes. I have been pointing out that Jewish witnesses are universally emotive, prone to exaggerate, use figures of speech and a story telling narrative that mixes hearsay with what they saw. Maybe it is cultural, or it is due to their victim status and combination of shame, PTSD and survivor guilt, or both.

That is why the corroborating Nazi testimony is so strong, since they are sworn enemies who agree with each other about the main event. The Nazis are universally less emotive, more matter of fact, as they were following orders, doing something that to them was not illegal and was part of fighting a war for survival.

[Stubble]

Emotive? Dude, that's a straight up lie. Sending tinned dead jews to Berlin to nazi cannibals is not emotive, it is a lie.

[blake121666]

No, jackass, its Muller.

Himmler, yes Himmler.

I apologize, perhaps the White Uniform threw me.

Vrba also wrote about Himmler visits, so how should I know who is the author of that quote?

And of course the other quote is Muller, it's from his book....

You jackass.

I will give you a pass, since you clearly are new to the subject. When quoting someone, the standard format is to name that person, provide a link and then the quote in quotation marks, to keep it separate from any comment. For example;

Tauber on the furnaces said;

https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=82890

"...there were five furnaces in Krematorium II, each with three muffles for cremating the corpses and heated by two coke-fired hearths"

Five furnaces, with 15 muffles or openings, all heated by 2 hearths.

EACH heated by 2 hearths - not "all" heated by 2 hearths.

Each triple-muffle oven had 2 gasifiers in the rear where the coke was gasified and that gasified coke was directed to the 2 front-side muffle areas as fuel for the incineration of the corpses. The middle muffle was residually heated by the side muffles and not direct-flame incineration like the side muffles. So more fatty corpses (such as women) were to be put into the middle muffle which better needed that additional fuel (of their fat).

Nessie misinterprets even a single-sentence quote!

EDIT: Gasification, btw, is a low-oxygen burning of a carbonaceous substance (coke in this instance) to produce volatile gas to be burned - mostly CO (carbon monoxide) but with some hydrogen and methane as well along with trace other volatiles.

[curioussoul]

Of course, Nessie would never falsify a quote by leaving out the most important bit...!

Exactly, that would be more than cherry picking, it would boarder on malicious. Best to assume he forgot.

One engineer said he saw two corpses being put into an oven, but the oven could not cope.

That's odd. Wouldn't you say?

[Callafangers]

Cremate-Incinerate.jpg (201.99 KiB) Viewed 204 times

Just stumbled across this old screenshot I saved, from user 'fireofice' at the old CODOH forum. Seems it could be relevant to this thread so just sharing for posterity.

[Nessie]

Exactly, that would be more than cherry picking, it would boarder on malicious. Best to assume he forgot.

One engineer said he saw two corpses being put into an oven, but the oven could not cope.

That's odd. Wouldn't you say?

Chronology is important to establish context. From Mattogno's book, a letter from Sept 1941;

https://sacrosanct.info/Books/Holocaust ... Moscow.pdf

"This had to do with the fact that, after the construction of the crematoria,
the Topf Company sent their people to the concentration camps to assem-
ble the crematoria, and engineer Prüfer, as the construction manager and
designer of the crematoria, went to the concentration camp to inspect how
the assembly work was going; he was also present during the practical
testing of the crematoria.
After his return from the Auschwitz Concentration Camp, Prüfer told me
that he had been present during the testing of the crematoria built there,
and had come to the conclusion that they were not very efficient and could
not cope with the number of corpses that had to be cremated there. At the
time, Prüfer gave me the example that, in his presence, two corpses at a
time had been introduced into the opening of the crematoria, but the latter
[the furnaces] had not been able to cope with the workload because there
were so many corpses to be cremated in the concentration camp.”

What did the Topf & Sons engineers do about that problem, identified during testing? The answer, Sept 1942,

“In my opinion, cremation in the muffle furnaces is not fast enough to dis-
pose of a large number of bodies in a desirably short time. This is why a
large number of furnaces or muffles are used, and the individual muffles
are stuffed with several corpses, without, however, remedying the root
cause, namely the defects of the muffle system.
In my opinion, these deficiencies of the muffle furnaces, which are not elim-
inated by combining them into four-muffle furnaces (three- or eight-muffle
furnaces) and by stuffing the individual muffles with several bodies concur-
rently, are as follows..."

The two months later;

"As a leading engineer at the Topf Company, I was head of the crematori-
um construction department, headed by Prüfer. The latter told me in 1942,
I don’t remember the exact date, during a conversation about the capacity
of the crematoria that had been built in Auschwitz Concentration Camp,
that they could not cope with the number of corpses to be cremated. He cit-
ed the example that two or three corpses were inserted into the insertion
openings, but that the crematorium could not cope with the workload in the
concentration camps. At that time, as a specialist in the field of heating, I
decided on my own initiative to build a crematorium with a higher
capacity for cremating corpses.
In November 1942, I had finished my project for a crematorium for
mass cremation of corpses, and submitted it to the Reich Patent Office in
Berlin."

The engineers, being engineers, worked on ways to increase capacity, so that the ovens could cope. The Kremas went into operation in 1943 and they could cope with multiple corpse cremations.

[blake121666]

Cremate-Incinerate.jpg

Just stumbled across this old screenshot I saved, from user 'fireofice' at the old CODOH forum. Seems it could be relevant to this thread so just sharing for posterity.

There are some significant misunderstandings in this post you found. Rather than clear each one up, I'll summarily say the case about crematory corpse cremations by the Germans in WW2 - and Auschwitz in particular.

Just as a general understanding of cremating corpses, the cremation process has to evaporate liquid from the corpse in order to ignite and combust it. External heat energy is required for this initial evaporation but once the main stores of fat are ignited, the corpse combusts into pieces - which continue to cremate. Those smaller pieces then take the bulk of the cremation time to dry out, ignite, and incinerate. So one has an initial phase of mostly evaporative cooling followed by a surge of heat in the main combustion phase and then a more settled type finishing off of incineration in the oven.

If you read Mattogno/Deana The Cremation Furnaces of Auschwitz, you can get a very good handle on the cremation oven situation not just at Auschwitz but more generally.

I made a post about my translation of the Topf triple-muffle oven operating instructions from that book here.

The operating instructions there are for the ovens to be loaded with another corpse after the first has gone through its main combustion. With such procedure one would get, in the long run, the average cremation rate equaling the throughput rate of corpses. For example, if you average one corpse inserted per 30 minutes then in the long run that will end up being the average cremation rate - even though the parts of the prior corpse(s) incinerating overlaps with that of the additional corpse. And therefore it should be noted that the time for any particular corpse to be said to be fully incinerated is of course much longer than this average throughput time.

The German wartime documents all tend to assume something like 30-40 minutes as an average cremation rate everywhere except Auschwitz - which estimates 15 minutes. This is because of the oven throughput - not full incineration times. The Gusen II and Westerbork cremation tally sheets (included and discussed in the Mattogno/Deana book) imply a 30-40 minute corpse throughput at those crematoria. The Gusen tally sheet undeniably shows a corpse throughput no greater than 40 minutes for one particular period in that tally sheet. The initial post seems to not understand the difference between average throughput and average cremation time - which are approximately equal but not identical of course.

It is unknown what time savings there would be when attempting to incinerate multiple corpses at a time in a cremation oven. Given the process of incineration which I outlined above, the main time component is towards evaporating liquids. Such evaporation out of the corpse occurs through the exposed surface area of the corpse. Multiple corpses would give a lesser percentage of exposed surface area than a single corpse.

Direct-flame incineration is quicker than passive heat incineration. The 2 side muffles of the Topf triple-muffle ovens employ direct-flame incineration. The Mattogno/Deana book goes into great depth about the Topf triple-muffle oven and has pictures of the extant Topf triple-muffle ovens at Buchenwald.

While writing this I have the post I am responding to in a separate window to serve as a guide in what to write here. A cremation is identical to incineration. If he wishes to distinguish direct-flame from passive heat, fine. But the German's cremation ovens were direct-flame and therefore "incinerators" from his perspective.

The mineral content of bodies is not flammable and is never "reduced to ash". The cremains left over from a cremation are not "ash". The bones tend to retain a reduced version of their shapes - but are typically very brittle and can shatter.

I'll stop there. I'm hung over and not up to an "effort-post" at this time. Since I've looked into these matters fairly extensively, I figured I'd toss out a top-of-the-head response. Maybe I'll put more effort into addressing the post better later or in response to responses to this post of mine. You should be able to see the confusions in that post from this post of mine here.

[blake121666]

What confuses such matters the most is that people such as Tauber constantly speak as if cremation rates themselves (as in kg/hr) are drastically increased when it is only the oven throughput (corpses/hr) which is determining the average cremation times. The actual incineration of material, on average, is actually much lower (per corpse) with multiple corpses.

And everyone speaks in this heuristic manner. It is the throughput they are really speaking about though. All technical fields speak heuristically about matters in such ways. But it confuses people who understand the heuristic as being literally true. And Tauber and others go on and on as if the heuristic IS literally true! They never give anyone a clue that they are speaking heuristically. One cannot suss out that average cremation times are because of the throughput from such testimony. Tauber himself misunderstands what he talks about. They all tend to misunderstand the cremations as being more powerful incineration when they were simply higher throughput - at lower power (per corpse).

[Stubble]

Anybody look at that letter from Wirths? It's from when he was asking for an undressing room and a autopsy room in the vestibule (something that wasn't done) but here it is presented as proof of genocide, because he said undressing room, and that means corpse cellar #2 don't you know, not, an undressing room and an autopsy room in the vestibule....