Ventilation Capacities - Birkenau Kremas

[Archie]

This has come up in a few other threads. Might be good to do a wiki page on this.

Germar Rudolf has a good, concise summary in Holocaust Handbooks #42 beginning on page 99.

Ventilation Calculations for Krema II/III

The sizes of the exhaust fans are all documented and the air exchanges per hour can be calculated. Rudolf quotes the figures below from Pressac's 1993 book (these values are consistent with what the Topf engineers said). For additional documentation, see Mattogno "The Ventilation Systems of Crematoria II and III in Birkenau"
https://codoh.com/library/document/the- ... i-and-iii/

– (4,800 m³/h÷483 m³) = 9.94 exchanges for Morgue #1;
– (10,000 m³/h÷966 m³) = 10.35 exchanges for Morgue #2;
– (10,000 m³/h÷1,031 m³) = 9.70 exchanges for the furnace room;
– (3,000 m³/h÷300 m³) = 10 exchanges for the autopsy room

There are a couple of key observations here.

1) The air exchanges per hour are typical for a morgue, not a gas or fumigation chamber.
2) The ventilation capacity is approximately equal for all four rooms above. Around 10 air exchanges per hour. This makes sense from a revisionist perspective. It does NOT make sense from the orthodox perspective. Why wouldn't LK1 be equipped with more powerful ventilation than e.g. the autopsy room?

To support the first point, we can review contemporaneous technical literature. Rudolf notes that the recommendation for morgues was 5 air exchanges per hour, and up to 10 per hour for "intensive use" which would certainly apply to a concentration camp. In contrast the recommendation for fumigation chambers was 72 air exchanges per hour.

Pressac himself conceded that the ventilation was apparently designed for a morgue.

"The ventilation and air extraction system of Leichenkeller 1 was designed for a morgue, not a gas chamber, though in the end it was used without modification;" (Pressac, 285)
https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-his ... 0285.shtml

"Air Exchanges"

To the layman, it might sound like one complete "air exchange" would be sufficient to ventilate a room but this intuition is incorrect. This is because even though you might extract a volume of air equal to the entire volume of the room, you can't exclusively remove "old air." Hence, some of "old air" is still in the room even after an "air exchange." If the new and old air are well mixed, around 63% of "old air" gets removed per air exchange. Even after many air exchanges, in theory, there is probably a little bit of "old air" still left, but it would be too infinitesimal to matter.

Given that 63%, you would expect 99% air replacement after around 5 air exchanges and 99.9% air replacement after 7 air exchanges. But this is under ideal conditions. The ventilation after a hypothetical gassing in LK1 would have been far from ideal.

Problems with Ventilation after a Hypothetical Gassing

1) (Most obvious) The room would have been packed with bodies. This would create air pockets and would hinder the mixing of old and fresh air.

2) The exhaust fan was low and near the floor while the fresh air intake was up high. This would be extremely poor design for a Zyklon gas chamber because HCN is lighter than air and thus rises. Dead bodies would also block the exhaust. Additionally, the intake and exhaust were very close to each which would mean the air would not be well mixed and you would extract relatively more fresh air vs ideal conditions (a "short circuit" as Rudolf calls it).

Pressac concedes this.
"...in Leichenkeller 1 the fresh air came in near the ceiling and the air extraction vents were near the floor, which means that the system was designed for a cool morgue, not for a warm gas chamber were the fresh air should come in front below and the foul air be extracted from above." (Pressac, 289)
https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-his ... 0289.shtml

And see here to see the position of the ventilation fans in this visual from Mattogno. See where it says "Canale collettore di aerazione."


3) There is the issue of evaporation curve of the Zyklon. Most testimonies indicate that the pellets were simply dropped into the cellars. The "Kula column" variant of the story seems to have gained traction relatively late (after Leuchter) precisely to deal with the ventilation problem. The idea is that they could use these columns to pull out the Zyklon, a truly amateurish design. Zyklon is supposed to be spread evenly throughout the room, not in a heap on the floor or clumped up in a column or in a can or whatever the hell the "official story" is.

Implications

The ventilation design of Kremas II/III is strong evidence against the Holocaust because the design is consistent with a morgue, not a gas chamber. Moreover, the design would have been very bad for a gas chamber and the ventilation after a gassing would have been quite slow (likely hours, depending on the exact scenario envisioned).

This is also relevant to the Prussian blue debate because one of the most common copes about the lack of the Prussian blue is that the ventilation was super fast and therefore the gas would have only been in contact with the walls very briefly. Not true at all for the reasons mentioned.

I don't have time to go into Kremas IV/V right this moment, but the ventilation problems there would have been even worse.

[Stubble]

Because it was a morgue, not a gas chamber.

I'm not going to try to explain air mixing, laminar vs turbulent flow and ventilation design and ductwork mitigation techniques to someone who absolutely doesn't understand. Guy finds one article with a table and says 'see, 28 minutes'. Let's say that my credentials and my decade of experience are better than 'I found this table on the internet'.

There's a great volume of work regarding this, from the expert opinion used in the 1972 Auschwitz trial in Vienna, to the Luft report and and Rudolf's work in this regard.

https://ihr.org/journal/v12p391_luftl.html

https://codoh.com/library/document/engi ... t-morgues/

There are people out there that will just hand wave this away however and throw out any number of lies saying 'see'.

Also, nobody has ever mentioned any ammonia kommando. The cyanide would still be active and not neutral. Either the cleanup crew was in MOPP 3, or they had ammonia kommandos with sprayers go in first.

Or, everyone died from exposure.

[TlsMS93]

Tauber testified in his testimony about the alleged gas chambers:

“The roof of the gas chamber was supported by concrete pillars running down the middle of its length. On each side of these pillars were four more, two on each side. The sides of these pillars, which ran up the roof, were of coarse wire mesh. Inside this grid was another of finer mesh and inside that a third of very fine mesh. Inside this last mesh cage was a removable canister which was pulled out with a wire to retrieve the pellets from which the gas had evaporated.”

Germar Rudolf writes about Tauber’s testimony:

“Several hundred people, locked in a cellar with a very small surface area, in anticipation of death, panicked and tried to escape, damaging everything in their path. […] If these columns really existed, their external structure would have to be of solid steel, but certainly not of a flimsy wire mesh construction.”

Tauber’s testimony about the wire mesh in the gas chambers is simply not reliable.


Using metal columns to inject and remove Zyklon B is a mechanism for rescuing the Holocaust narrative to adapt to new discoveries

[Stubble]

Retrieving the depleted gypsum does nothing to mitigate the released, active, cyanide, which would have supposedly filled the room to kill the condemned when it was a gas, before condensing. It would have been literally on every exposed surface.

[blake121666]

Tauber testified in his testimony about the alleged gas chambers:

“The roof of the gas chamber was supported by concrete pillars running down the middle of its length. On each side of these pillars were four more, two on each side. The sides of these pillars, which ran up the roof, were of coarse wire mesh. Inside this grid was another of finer mesh and inside that a third of very fine mesh. Inside this last mesh cage was a removable canister which was pulled out with a wire to retrieve the pellets from which the gas had evaporated.”

Germar Rudolf writes about Tauber’s testimony:

“Several hundred people, locked in a cellar with a very small surface area, in anticipation of death, panicked and tried to escape, damaging everything in their path. […] If these columns really existed, their external structure would have to be of solid steel, but certainly not of a flimsy wire mesh construction.”

Tauber’s testimony about the wire mesh in the gas chambers is simply not reliable.


Using metal columns to inject and remove Zyklon B is a mechanism for rescuing the Holocaust narrative to adapt to new discoveries

The exposed part, even in the way you quoted it here (which might be faulty), claims "coarse wire mesh". Wire mesh could be quite solid indeed. There's no reason to think that exposed part to have been "flimsy". I think it was Van Pelt who made what he imagined the Kula column to have been about a decade ago. A quick image search isn't giving it to me at this time, though.

I am familiar with "wire mesh" steel railing systems. To a layman, "wire mesh" might SOUND like something "flimsy" because you are thinking about flimsy "wires". "Wires" can be as think as you like. No human will break a 1/2 inch thick or more steel wire mesh with his body! Even something like 1/8 inch thick steel would be more trouble than you think - but I used 1/2 inch here because imo THAT would be practically impossible to break in this scenario. It could've been larger though. Your public sewer grates are technically "wire mesh".

In short, Germar misunderstood the term "wire mesh" here.

[TlsMS93]

No one will be able to determine how thick they were, but the narrative was much later due to Leucher's experiments. Did they find anything in the rubble of the Kremas that would indicate this?

[Stubble]

No one will be able to determine how thick they were, but the narrative was much later due to Leucher's experiments. Did they find anything in the rubble of the Kremas that would indicate this?

You can find references to the columns before Fred penned his rather infamous report.

Also, based on 'some' of the descriptions and models, hog panel might be a more colloquial description of the 'wire mesh'.

Then the question becomes, how were these columns anchored.

So, how were they anchored?

The extant floor shows no signs of penetration for anchorages.



This is from the namesake of the columns, here, they are drawn and look rather flimsy. It is from later models and drawings that it is surmised that something like hog panel was used.

The guy who built them, drew this.

[TlsMS93]

From this description it seems to be a normal wire mesh, sufficient to fence animals but not to protect against impacts.

But the main question is what you mentioned, were they fixed to the ceiling and floor? With nails, anchored in concrete? Either way it would be subject to falling apart under the impact of hundreds of panicked people, where even walls in stadiums have been knocked down. Perhaps reinforced steel sheets would be adequate.

[fireofice]

Kremas IV and V were even worse according to Rudolf:

The rooms which purportedly served as “gas chambers” in Crematoria IV and V (for the latter at least until early 1944), like Bunkers I and II, allegedly had no ventilation installation at all and only slight ventilation possibilities by means of a few doors. The use of a room without efficient ventilation installations for mass murder at a time and in a place where even dissecting rooms, wash rooms, and laying-out rooms were equipped with ventilation installations, and where many ventilation fans were supplying lots of fresh air in disinfestation rooms right next door, is so absurd that any rational human being ought to refuse to take such stories seriously. (The Chemistry of Asuchwitz, p. 283)

[Nessie]

This has come up in a few other threads. Might be good to do a wiki page on this.

Germar Rudolf has a good, concise summary in Holocaust Handbooks #42 beginning on page 99.

Ventilation Calculations for Krema II/III

The sizes of the exhaust fans are all documented and the air exchanges per hour can be calculated. Rudolf quotes the figures below from Pressac's 1993 book (these values are consistent with what the Topf engineers said). For additional documentation, see Mattogno "The Ventilation Systems of Crematoria II and III in Birkenau"
https://codoh.com/library/document/the- ... i-and-iii/

– (4,800 m³/h÷483 m³) = 9.94 exchanges for Morgue #1;
– (10,000 m³/h÷966 m³) = 10.35 exchanges for Morgue #2;
– (10,000 m³/h÷1,031 m³) = 9.70 exchanges for the furnace room;
– (3,000 m³/h÷300 m³) = 10 exchanges for the autopsy room

...

Those exchanges are consistent with the testimony of Karl Schultze, the Topf & Sons engineer who designed the ventilation system.

https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=61650

"The ventilation installation provided for a ten-times air exchange; it served to suck out the gas that had collected and pump in fresh air. The pipes of the ventilation, which I personally constructed for the gas chamber, were immured in the walls of the chamber."

Schultze is corroborated by every single person, Nazi and Jew, who worked inside the Kremas, that they were used for mass gassings. Documents record the construction of gas chambers within the Kremas. The circumstantial evidence around the functioning of the Kremas, support the mass gassing evidence.

That revisionists do not think that the ventilation system could have worked for a gas chambers, is based on their inexpert, biased, calculations and no evidence as to what the Kremas were used for. Their argument that because they cannot work out how the gas chambers could have functioned, therefore all 100% of the witnesses lied, is illogical.

[blake121666]

Kremas IV and V were even worse according to Rudolf:

The rooms which purportedly served as “gas chambers” in Crematoria IV and V (for the latter at least until early 1944), like Bunkers I and II, allegedly had no ventilation installation at all and only slight ventilation possibilities by means of a few doors. The use of a room without efficient ventilation installations for mass murder at a time and in a place where even dissecting rooms, wash rooms, and laying-out rooms were equipped with ventilation installations, and where many ventilation fans were supplying lots of fresh air in disinfestation rooms right next door, is so absurd that any rational human being ought to refuse to take such stories seriously. (The Chemistry of Asuchwitz, p. 283)

K4 and K5 MIGHT have had blowers in them. Mattogno brings that up in some of his books. We shouldn't say for sure that we absolutely know there were not fans in K4 and K5. Such was thought to have been the case until like the '90s or so though - maybe even later. I myself thought no fans, but there are docs that refer to blowers and I've seen them discussed by Mattogno - just don't recall exactly where by Mattogno.

[blake121666]

No one will be able to determine how thick they were, but the narrative was much later due to Leucher's experiments. Did they find anything in the rubble of the Kremas that would indicate this?

You can find references to the columns before Fred penned his rather infamous report.

Also, based on 'some' of the descriptions and models, hog panel might be a more colloquial description of the 'wire mesh'.

Then the question becomes, how were these columns anchored.

So, how were they anchored?

The extant floor shows no signs of penetration for anchorages.



This is from the namesake of the columns, here, they are drawn and look rather flimsy. It is from later models and drawings that it is surmised that something like hog panel was used.

The guy who built them, drew this.

I doubt Kula drew that. At the bottom it says it is from Kula's deposition. Some Frenchman looks to have drawn that.

I vaguely remember that Van Pelt's version he built had it framed in angle iron. Someone should find that Van Pelt thing. He made an exposition of precisely the Kula columns like 10 years ago and my web searching is not finding that now.

I agree with you that that specific drawing there doesn't look as sturdy as it should!

I vaguely remember that Rudolf himself made up a chicken-wire-like version in Georgia (the US state) like some time in the '90s. I can't remember the name of the guy he was working with. He had a doctorate in something or other I think.

[Stubble]

No one will be able to determine how thick they were, but the narrative was much later due to Leucher's experiments. Did they find anything in the rubble of the Kremas that would indicate this?

You can find references to the columns before Fred penned his rather infamous report.

Also, based on 'some' of the descriptions and models, hog panel might be a more colloquial description of the 'wire mesh'.

Then the question becomes, how were these columns anchored.

So, how were they anchored?

The extant floor shows no signs of penetration for anchorages.



This is from the namesake of the columns, here, they are drawn and look rather flimsy. It is from later models and drawings that it is surmised that something like hog panel was used.

The guy who built them, drew this.

I doubt Kula drew that. At the bottom it says it is from Kula's deposition. Some Frenchman looks to have drawn that.

I vaguely remember that Van Pelt's version he built had it framed in angle iron. Someone should find that Van Pelt thing. He made an exposition of precisely the Kula columns like 10 years ago and my web searching is not finding that now.

I agree with you that that specific drawing there doesn't look as sturdy as it should!

I vaguely remember that Rudolf himself made up a chicken-wire-like version in Georgia (the US state) like some time in the '90s.

I think this one come from pressac. I thought he annotated it. If he drew it, I apologize. I'll try to vet it. I was under the impression it was a marked exhibit he had annotated.

I deleted /jpeg from the address and got source, here;

https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-his ... o-columns/

[fireofice]

Pressac does seem to make quite a lot of concessions. Maybe he was a secret revisionist double agent like Rudolf believed after all.

https://codoh.com/library/document/the-double-agent/

[Archie]

This has come up in a few other threads. Might be good to do a wiki page on this.

Germar Rudolf has a good, concise summary in Holocaust Handbooks #42 beginning on page 99.

Ventilation Calculations for Krema II/III

The sizes of the exhaust fans are all documented and the air exchanges per hour can be calculated. Rudolf quotes the figures below from Pressac's 1993 book (these values are consistent with what the Topf engineers said). For additional documentation, see Mattogno "The Ventilation Systems of Crematoria II and III in Birkenau"
https://codoh.com/library/document/the- ... i-and-iii/

– (4,800 m³/h÷483 m³) = 9.94 exchanges for Morgue #1;
– (10,000 m³/h÷966 m³) = 10.35 exchanges for Morgue #2;
– (10,000 m³/h÷1,031 m³) = 9.70 exchanges for the furnace room;
– (3,000 m³/h÷300 m³) = 10 exchanges for the autopsy room

...

Those exchanges are consistent with the testimony of Karl Schultze, the Topf & Sons engineer who designed the ventilation system.

https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=61650

"The ventilation installation provided for a ten-times air exchange; it served to suck out the gas that had collected and pump in fresh air. The pipes of the ventilation, which I personally constructed for the gas chamber, were immured in the walls of the chamber."

Schultze is corroborated by every single person, Nazi and Jew, who worked inside the Kremas, that they were used for mass gassings. Documents record the construction of gas chambers within the Kremas. The circumstantial evidence around the functioning of the Kremas, support the mass gassing evidence.

That revisionists do not think that the ventilation system could have worked for a gas chambers, is based on their inexpert, biased, calculations and no evidence as to what the Kremas were used for. Their argument that because they cannot work out how the gas chambers could have functioned, therefore all 100% of the witnesses lied, is illogical.

You have dodged every single point made in the OP. Are you even trying? It seems you have no counterpoints at all.

I already said in the OP, "these values are consistent with what the Topf engineers said." They designed all these rooms to be at roughly 10 air exchanges per hour. This undermines the Holocaust story for reasons already explained and which you have not even tried to address.