The HC Blog 'Auschwitz Index'

[blake121666]

Of course, Nessie would never falsify a quote by leaving out the most important bit...!

Exactly, that would be more than cherry picking, it would boarder on malicious. Best to assume he forgot.

One engineer said he saw two corpses being put into an oven, but the oven could not cope. Another engineer said he saw several copses stuffed into an oven and he makes no mention of the oven not being able to cope. A Sonderkommando described how they put multiple corpses in the ovens and also says nothing about the ovens not being able to cope. It would be wrong of you to just cherry-pick the one engineer.

The full quote is:

Then I gave Sander the example that in Auschwitz, in my presence, two corpses were shoved
into an introduction opening/muffle instead of just one, and that the furnaces of the crematorium could not cope with this load because there were so many corpses to burn.

From: Auschwitz Engineers in Moscow

And the same thing was said numerous times in slightly different ways. The ovens could not cope with the number of corpses that needed to be cremated - even when attempting multiple-at-a-time cremations.

[Nessie]

Exactly, that would be more than cherry picking, it would boarder on malicious. Best to assume he forgot.

One engineer said he saw two corpses being put into an oven, but the oven could not cope. Another engineer said he saw several copses stuffed into an oven and he makes no mention of the oven not being able to cope. A Sonderkommando described how they put multiple corpses in the ovens and also says nothing about the ovens not being able to cope. It would be wrong of you to just cherry-pick the one engineer.

The full quote is:

Then I gave Sander the example that in Auschwitz, in my presence, two corpses were shoved
into an introduction opening/muffle instead of just one, and that the furnaces of the crematorium could not cope with this load because there were so many corpses to burn.

From: Auschwitz Engineers in Moscow

And the same thing was said numerous times in slightly different ways. The ovens could not cope with the number of corpses that needed to be cremated - even when attempting multiple-at-a-time cremations.

Please quote who said the same thing in slightly different ways.

https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... ce-on.html

"Report from Fritz Sanders of 14 September 1942 on "stuffing the individual muffles with several corpses" [Schüle, Industrie und Holocaust, p. 443]"

https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=82890

"We put five corpses on this: first we put two with the legs towards the furnace and the belly upwards, then two more the other way round but still with the belly upwards, and finally we put the fifth one with the legs towards the furnace and the back upwards. The arms of this last one hung down and seemed to embrace the other bodies below."

[Nessie]

Did all the witnesses at the Salem witch trials lie? How can you say they did if you haven't read their testimony?

Because they all claimed the casting of magic spells and other impossible acts such as the witches flying!

I see revisionists comparing the gassings to the witch trials all the time. It is yet another logical fail, since it compares something impossible to something that is possible. Germans designing and building gas chambers, was well within their capabilities in the 1940s.

So far as this instance is concerned, I know more about this fellow than I ever wanted to in my life. I have read his illusions to cannibalism by the Germans with the 'tinning of meat' after 'selection' by the doctors. Bleeding women into pails to provide blood for transfusions at the front before throwing them half conscious into burning pits or running cremation ovens. His description of the gassing process.

The Jewish testimony is emotive, far more so than the Nazis, who are matter of fact. The Sonderkommandos, on pain of death, in terrible conditions, had to help murder their fellow people. The Nazis, acting under orders, were doing what was, to them at that time, lawful and against a despicable enemy. It is hardly surprising that Jewish testimony is graphic.

That you believe the ridiculous accounts does not mean I should take them as gospel. The more I refresh my memory with these tales, the worse it gets. It is like rereading night in retrospect knowing what I know now. The stories are ridiculous.

I believe the descriptions of events, because they are corroborated. I often do not believe the description of details, which are clearly emotive.

The guy couldn't even accurately tell Vrba how many furnaces there were in crematoria 2 and crematoria 3. FFS.

Revisionists, who have never taken witness statements, spent time observing them give evidence, or looked at the numerous studies of witness behaviour, memory and recollection, think that they should be far more accurate than they are in reality. That leads them to mistakenly think people are lying, when they are just being wrong about the details, as witnesses usually are.

[TlsMS93]

“The Jewish testimony is emotive, far more so than the Nazis, who are matter of fact. The Sonderkommandos, in pain of death, in terrible conditions, had to help murder their fellow people. The Nazis, acting under orders, were doing what was, to them at that time, lawful and against a despicable enemy. It is hardly surprising that Jewish testimony is graphic”.

The Sonderkommando, almost all Jews, did not like cremating corpses because their religion abhors this method, so since there was no possibility of them being further punished by their captors after the war, as revenge for Purim, they maintained this lie of gassing and multiple cremations because the atmosphere from sources in the Polish underworld was already spreading around the world as crimes of public knowledge and the Germans could do nothing to defend themselves other than to reduce their sentences by “following orders”.

[Stubble]

Dude, he was working there when he palmed his plans off to vrba, off of which that diagram was penned.

This isn't faulty recollection, it's bullshit.

“I handed to Alfred a plan of the crematoria and gas chambers as well as a list of names of SS men who were on duty there. In addition I had given to both of them notes I had been making for some time of almost all transports gassed in crematoria 4 and 5. I had described to them in full detail the process of extermination so that they would be able to report to the outside world… In the course of many long talks I had described to them both the tragedy which was constantly being enacted behind the crematorium walls.”

P121-122 'Eyewitness Auschwitz: Three Years in the Gas Chambers'

1 story, 9 ovens, rails going to the ovens...

You can be as apologetic as you like I suppose, but, I'm not going to take my brain out of my skull to believe this garbage.

The talk of German cannibalism and bleeding women into bucket for blood transfusions isn't graphic, it's ridiculous. If you don't understand how stupid this tripe is, I can't help you.

[TlsMS93]

Or air raid shelters, or mass showers. Revisionists cannot agree on anything to do with the Kremas!



Documents record the construction of heated undressing rooms, ventilated gas chambers and fast action, multiple corpse cremation ovens.



The exact figures and times are uncertain. The gassings and cremations are the only evidence of usage for the Kremas in 1943-4.

I rarely see revisionists unanimously saying that the Kremas of Birkenau was an air raid shelter, only the Stammlager agrees and even then it was also a morgue before.

When revisionists fail to produce an evidenced chronology of events, they fail at the prime task of historical investigation.

There is documentary evidence that the Kremas was still used as a morgue in 1944, the only denier here is you.

There is documentary evidence of corpses of prisoners who died elsewhere in A-B, being sent to the Kremas. That does not evidence those bodies were then stored in the Leichenkellers.

They want us to believe in retarded gassing so they can crawl to their graves.

[Nessie]

Dude, he was working there when he palmed his plans off to vrba, off of which that diagram was penned.

This isn't faulty recollection, it's bullshit.

It is one person describing to another, who likely described it to another who spoke English who drew what he described as a "rough ground plan". It is just a basic sketch. I do not see why you think that is somehow proof of lying?

“I handed to Alfred a plan of the crematoria and gas chambers as well as a list of names of SS men who were on duty there. In addition I had given to both of them notes I had been making for some time of almost all transports gassed in crematoria 4 and 5. I had described to them in full detail the process of extermination so that they would be able to report to the outside world… In the course of many long talks I had described to them both the tragedy which was constantly being enacted behind the crematorium walls.”

P121-122 'Eyewitness Auschwitz: Three Years in the Gas Chambers'

An interview of Muller has him speaking German. He is described as variously as Slovakian or Czechoslovakian, and I cannot find any indication he spoke English. We do not know who drew the rough plan.

1 story, 9 ovens, rails going to the ovens...

You can be as apologetic as you like I suppose, but, I'm not going to take my brain out of my skull to believe this garbage.

The talk of German cannibalism and bleeding women into bucket for blood transfusions isn't graphic, it's ridiculous. If you don't understand how stupid this tripe is, I can't help you.

You have defaulted to believing everything is garbage, rather than analysing the testimony, to establish exactly where and the circumstances it came from and what is corroborated and therefore truthful. Revisionist analysis of witness evidence leads them to conclude that 100% of them lied. An analysis with such a certain conclusion, is clearly not a fair or honest form of analysis.

[Nessie]

“The Jewish testimony is emotive, far more so than the Nazis, who are matter of fact. The Sonderkommandos, in pain of death, in terrible conditions, had to help murder their fellow people. The Nazis, acting under orders, were doing what was, to them at that time, lawful and against a despicable enemy. It is hardly surprising that Jewish testimony is graphic”.

The Sonderkommando, almost all Jews, did not like cremating corpses because their religion abhors this method, so since there was no possibility of them being further punished by their captors after the war, as revenge for Purim, they maintained this lie of gassing and multiple cremations because the atmosphere from sources in the Polish underworld was already spreading around the world as crimes of public knowledge and the Germans could do nothing to defend themselves other than to reduce their sentences by “following orders”.

That is your theory. Now you need evidence gassings was a cover story for why the helped to cremate dead Jewish prisoners, against their religious beliefs. That the Nazis, who have no interest in helping Jews to maintain a cover story, agree gassings took place, is evidence against your theory.

[TlsMS93]

“The Jewish testimony is emotive, far more so than the Nazis, who are matter of fact. The Sonderkommandos, in pain of death, in terrible conditions, had to help murder their fellow people. The Nazis, acting under orders, were doing what was, to them at that time, lawful and against a despicable enemy. It is hardly surprising that Jewish testimony is graphic”.

The Sonderkommando, almost all Jews, did not like cremating corpses because their religion abhors this method, so since there was no possibility of them being further punished by their captors after the war, as revenge for Purim, they maintained this lie of gassing and multiple cremations because the atmosphere from sources in the Polish underworld was already spreading around the world as crimes of public knowledge and the Germans could do nothing to defend themselves other than to reduce their sentences by “following orders”.

That is your theory. Now you need evidence gassings was a cover story for why the helped to cremate dead Jewish prisoners, against their religious beliefs. That the Nazis, who have no interest in helping Jews to maintain a cover story, agree gassings took place, is evidence against your theory.

If I were a Sonderkommando and they freed me from what would be a camp where I was forced to cremate people, many of them of my race who died of typhus or malnutrition in the camp, I would also, as revenge, sustain several absurdities. You would have to explain why the revenge component is absent from this narrative; they would not do it and would be so dignified as to tell exactly what happened.

Since there is no evidence of gassing, the Sonderkommando can maintain whatever they want without compromising themselves.

[Stubble]

Dude, he was working there when he palmed his plans off to vrba, off of which that diagram was penned.

This isn't faulty recollection, it's bullshit.

It is one person describing to another, who likely described it to another who spoke English who drew what he described as a "rough ground plan". It is just a basic sketch. I do not see why you think that is somehow proof of lying?

“I handed to Alfred a plan of the crematoria and gas chambers as well as a list of names of SS men who were on duty there. In addition I had given to both of them notes I had been making for some time of almost all transports gassed in crematoria 4 and 5. I had described to them in full detail the process of extermination so that they would be able to report to the outside world… In the course of many long talks I had described to them both the tragedy which was constantly being enacted behind the crematorium walls.”

P121-122 'Eyewitness Auschwitz: Three Years in the Gas Chambers'

An interview of Muller has him speaking German. He is described as variously as Slovakian or Czechoslovakian, and I cannot find any indication he spoke English. We do not know who drew the rough plan.

1 story, 9 ovens, rails going to the ovens...

You can be as apologetic as you like I suppose, but, I'm not going to take my brain out of my skull to believe this garbage.

The talk of German cannibalism and bleeding women into bucket for blood transfusions isn't graphic, it's ridiculous. If you don't understand how stupid this tripe is, I can't help you.

You have defaulted to believing everything is garbage, rather than analysing the testimony, to establish exactly where and the circumstances it came from and what is corroborated and therefore truthful. Revisionist analysis of witness evidence leads them to conclude that 100% of them lied. An analysis with such a certain conclusion, is clearly not a fair or honest form of analysis.

Dude, you will excuse all of his lies. He can do no wrong.

Vrba and he both say he was 'the' source of information....well, but, you can't say it was him...

Didn't even know how many furnaces were in crematoria 2 and 3...after working in it. That's not a translation error, it's a lie. A straight up lie.

There there is the Goering visit...you still haven't addressed that one...

How about his description of Mengele?

You will just hand wave these lies away...

All of them...

As you have hand waved away all of this bullshit.

Let's say you actually believe the Germans were cannibals that were tinning jews for their ss friends. Like, you actually believe that happened...

The people we are talking about, they died from cyanide gas. What is going to happen to a person who eats them...that body, it's got cyanide in it......

The blood in a pail bit of trash. Look, nobody ever did that. That's never been how blood is collected. Beyond being unhygienic it's wildly impractical.

[blake121666]

One engineer said he saw two corpses being put into an oven, but the oven could not cope. Another engineer said he saw several copses stuffed into an oven and he makes no mention of the oven not being able to cope. A Sonderkommando described how they put multiple corpses in the ovens and also says nothing about the ovens not being able to cope. It would be wrong of you to just cherry-pick the one engineer.

The full quote is:

Then I gave Sander the example that in Auschwitz, in my presence, two corpses were shoved
into an introduction opening/muffle instead of just one, and that the furnaces of the crematorium could not cope with this load because there were so many corpses to burn.

From: Auschwitz Engineers in Moscow

And the same thing was said numerous times in slightly different ways. The ovens could not cope with the number of corpses that needed to be cremated - even when attempting multiple-at-a-time cremations.

Please quote who said the same thing in slightly different ways.

https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... ce-on.html

"Report from Fritz Sanders of 14 September 1942 on "stuffing the individual muffles with several corpses" [Schüle, Industrie und Holocaust, p. 443]"

https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=82890

"We put five corpses on this: first we put two with the legs towards the furnace and the belly upwards, then two more the other way round but still with the belly upwards, and finally we put the fifth one with the legs towards the furnace and the back upwards. The arms of this last one hung down and seemed to embrace the other bodies below."

I gave you the source in my post. Search for "cope" within that source. You seem confused about what the argument is here. I backed your claim up with my post, crazy poster. BOTH of you truncated the full sentence.

[Nessie]

“The Jewish testimony is emotive, far more so than the Nazis, who are matter of fact. The Sonderkommandos, in pain of death, in terrible conditions, had to help murder their fellow people. The Nazis, acting under orders, were doing what was, to them at that time, lawful and against a despicable enemy. It is hardly surprising that Jewish testimony is graphic”.

The Sonderkommando, almost all Jews, did not like cremating corpses because their religion abhors this method, so since there was no possibility of them being further punished by their captors after the war, as revenge for Purim, they maintained this lie of gassing and multiple cremations because the atmosphere from sources in the Polish underworld was already spreading around the world as crimes of public knowledge and the Germans could do nothing to defend themselves other than to reduce their sentences by “following orders”.

That is your theory. Now you need evidence gassings was a cover story for why the helped to cremate dead Jewish prisoners, against their religious beliefs. That the Nazis, who have no interest in helping Jews to maintain a cover story, agree gassings took place, is evidence against your theory.

If I were a Sonderkommando and they freed me from what would be a camp where I was forced to cremate people, many of them of my race who died of typhus or malnutrition in the camp, I would also, as revenge, sustain several absurdities. You would have to explain why the revenge component is absent from this narrative; they would not do it and would be so dignified as to tell exactly what happened.

There is a revenge motive for the Jewish witnesses to gassings. There is also the motive of wanting justice.

A Jew who was forced to cremate people who had died of disease or starvation at the camps, does not need to make up a gassing narrative, to want those who forced them to work as slave labour doing something that is against their religion, to be held to account.

Since there is no evidence of gassing, the Sonderkommando can maintain whatever they want without compromising themselves.

You are lying that there is no evidence of gassings. Documents record the construction of gas chambers, which is evidence for gassings. All the Nazis who worked at the A-B Kremas admit to their use for gassings, which is evidence. The circumstances of mass arrivals, selections, people being sent to the Kremas, all record of their existence ending and their property being taken for sorting and sale, is evidence. Those sources of evidence corroborate and converge to a logical conclusion of gassings.

[Nessie]

Dude, he was working there when he palmed his plans off to vrba, off of which that diagram was penned.

This isn't faulty recollection, it's bullshit.

It is one person describing to another, who likely described it to another who spoke English who drew what he described as a "rough ground plan". It is just a basic sketch. I do not see why you think that is somehow proof of lying?

“I handed to Alfred a plan of the crematoria and gas chambers as well as a list of names of SS men who were on duty there. In addition I had given to both of them notes I had been making for some time of almost all transports gassed in crematoria 4 and 5. I had described to them in full detail the process of extermination so that they would be able to report to the outside world… In the course of many long talks I had described to them both the tragedy which was constantly being enacted behind the crematorium walls.”

P121-122 'Eyewitness Auschwitz: Three Years in the Gas Chambers'

An interview of Muller has him speaking German. He is described as variously as Slovakian or Czechoslovakian, and I cannot find any indication he spoke English. We do not know who drew the rough plan.

1 story, 9 ovens, rails going to the ovens...

You can be as apologetic as you like I suppose, but, I'm not going to take my brain out of my skull to believe this garbage.

The talk of German cannibalism and bleeding women into bucket for blood transfusions isn't graphic, it's ridiculous. If you don't understand how stupid this tripe is, I can't help you.

You have defaulted to believing everything is garbage, rather than analysing the testimony, to establish exactly where and the circumstances it came from and what is corroborated and therefore truthful. Revisionist analysis of witness evidence leads them to conclude that 100% of them lied. An analysis with such a certain conclusion, is clearly not a fair or honest form of analysis.

Dude, you will excuse all of his lies. He can do no wrong.

You have not proved lying, as opposed to mistakes and the repeating of hearsay.

Vrba and he both say he was 'the' source of information....well, but, you can't say it was him...

Please show who, Vrba or Muller, drew the rough plan, with its English annotation.

Didn't even know how many furnaces were in crematoria 2 and 3...after working in it. That's not a translation error, it's a lie. A straight up lie.

There there is the Goering visit...you still haven't addressed that one...

How about his description of Mengele?

You will just hand wave these lies away...

All of them...

As you have hand waved away all of this bullshit.

Vrba collated information he was given, the majority of his evidence is hearsay. Hearsay is the least accurate form of evidence. It is usually riddled with mistakes about details. I have not read Muller's book, so do not know what details he relates that he saw, or he is repeating as hearsay. That does not mean it is all lies. It is more likely to be inaccurate information.

Let's say you actually believe the Germans were cannibals that were tinning jews for their ss friends. Like, you actually believe that happened...

The people we are talking about, they died from cyanide gas. What is going to happen to a person who eats them...that body, it's got cyanide in it......

The blood in a pail bit of trash. Look, nobody ever did that. That's never been how blood is collected. Beyond being unhygienic it's wildly impractical.

What you relate are atrocity stories that are clearly inaccurate. Historians, lawyers and other investigators, who know what they are doing, look for more reliable sources of evidence.

[TlsMS93]

That is your theory. Now you need evidence gassings was a cover story for why the helped to cremate dead Jewish prisoners, against their religious beliefs. That the Nazis, who have no interest in helping Jews to maintain a cover story, agree gassings took place, is evidence against your theory.

If I were a Sonderkommando and they freed me from what would be a camp where I was forced to cremate people, many of them of my race who died of typhus or malnutrition in the camp, I would also, as revenge, sustain several absurdities. You would have to explain why the revenge component is absent from this narrative; they would not do it and would be so dignified as to tell exactly what happened.

There is a revenge motive for the Jewish witnesses to gassings. There is also the motive of wanting justice.

A Jew who was forced to cremate people who had died of disease or starvation at the camps, does not need to make up a gassing narrative, to want those who forced them to work as slave labour doing something that is against their religion, to be held to account.

Since there is no evidence of gassing, the Sonderkommando can maintain whatever they want without compromising themselves.

You are lying that there is no evidence of gassings. Documents record the construction of gas chambers, which is evidence for gassings. All the Nazis who worked at the A-B Kremas admit to their use for gassings, which is evidence. The circumstances of mass arrivals, selections, people being sent to the Kremas, all record of their existence ending and their property being taken for sorting and sale, is evidence. Those sources of evidence corroborate and converge to a logical conclusion of gassings.

Of course they do. Do you really think that saying that they were just cremating the corpses of those who died naturally in the camp would be enough for them? When they were freed, they were already saturated with the propaganda abroad. All they had to do was to push these narratives, but since they did not know how Ziklon B works, they said untrue things, such as it having color or rising from the ground, the wrong color of the corpses, and other allegations that are verbose.

Since the crimes were public knowledge, it was useless to say anything else, so the only possible strategy was to “follow orders.” Jews also admitted to poisoning wells during the Black Death and yet their testimony is not acceptable because it was obtained under torture, so forget about Hoss and others who were forced to sign a “coherent” confession or be shot as “tried to escape”.

Documents show that it was a morgue and after it was built it continued to be, including the ventilation system, documents that you ignored, by the way.

Convergence of evidence is a scarecrow to avoid being able to answer embarrassing questions.

[Nessie]

If I were a Sonderkommando and they freed me from what would be a camp where I was forced to cremate people, many of them of my race who died of typhus or malnutrition in the camp, I would also, as revenge, sustain several absurdities. You would have to explain why the revenge component is absent from this narrative; they would not do it and would be so dignified as to tell exactly what happened.

There is a revenge motive for the Jewish witnesses to gassings. There is also the motive of wanting justice.

A Jew who was forced to cremate people who had died of disease or starvation at the camps, does not need to make up a gassing narrative, to want those who forced them to work as slave labour doing something that is against their religion, to be held to account.

Since there is no evidence of gassing, the Sonderkommando can maintain whatever they want without compromising themselves.

You are lying that there is no evidence of gassings. Documents record the construction of gas chambers, which is evidence for gassings. All the Nazis who worked at the A-B Kremas admit to their use for gassings, which is evidence. The circumstances of mass arrivals, selections, people being sent to the Kremas, all record of their existence ending and their property being taken for sorting and sale, is evidence. Those sources of evidence corroborate and converge to a logical conclusion of gassings.

Of course they do. Do you really think that saying that they were just cremating the corpses of those who died naturally in the camp would be enough for them? When they were freed, they were already saturated with the propaganda abroad. All they had to do was to push these narratives, but since they did not know how Ziklon B works, they said untrue things, such as it having color or rising from the ground, the wrong color of the corpses, and other allegations that are verbose.

Since the crimes were public knowledge, it was useless to say anything else, so the only possible strategy was to “follow orders.” Jews also admitted to poisoning wells during the Black Death and yet their testimony is not acceptable because it was obtained under torture, so forget about Hoss and others who were forced to sign a “coherent” confession or be shot as “tried to escape”.

Your theory is that Jews who cremated corpses for the Nazis, made up the gassing claims. I will wait for evidence to prove your theory.

Documents show that it was a morgue and after it was built it continued to be, including the ventilation system, documents that you ignored, by the way.

What document have I ignored?

Convergence of evidence is a scarecrow to avoid being able to answer embarrassing questions.

No, it is how corroborating evidence is chronologically pieced together to reach a logical conclusion.