Did the Soviets forge Katyn documents? Yes

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Archie
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Did the Soviets forge Katyn documents? Yes

Post by Archie »

Our buddy Patrick has been repeatedly claiming on X that there was no forgery of documents in connection with the Katyn massacre.
Spoiler
And bombsaway has similarly claimed there was no forgery.
bombsaway wrote: Sat Mar 08, 2025 6:47 pm Katyn is your best comparison for a 'fabricated' event, but even here they didn't fabricate documents, successfully and suppress and coerce witnesses, and they didn't even destroy their own documentation concerning their culpability for the event.
This is not true.

Forged Documents

The Soviets did in fact forge multiple documents in connection with the Katyn massacre in order to falsely incriminate the Germans. The executions are now recognized to have occurred in April and May of 1940. The Soviet narrative would obviously require a later timeline, sometime after Barbarossa. This timeline is crucial for understanding the forgeries. The Soviet report on Katyn, USSR-54, cites nine documents supposedly recovered from the bodies and dated later than spring 1940. All of these must necessarily have been forged.

Full English translation of USSR-54: https://www.jrbooksonline.com/cwporter/k1.htm
In addition to the information proven in the documents of the forensic medical report, the time of the shootings of the Polish prisoners of war by the Germans (autumn 1941, not the spring of 1940, as claimed by the Germans), was also established by documents discovered during the excavation of the graves, dating not only from the second half of 1940, but also from the spring and summer (March-June) of 1941.

Among the documents discovered by the forensic experts, the following merit particular attention:
1) on body 92: A letter from Warsaw in the Russian language addressed to the Central Office for Prisoners of War, Moscow, Kuibyshev Street no. 12. In the letter, "Sofia Zigon" inquires the whereabouts of her husband, Thomas Sigon. The letter is dated 12.9.1940. The envelope bears German postage cancellation "Warsaw IX40", and cancellation "Moscow Post Office 9 Expedition 28/IX40", as well a notice written in red ink, in the Russian language, reading "Find camp and deliver 15/XI40" (signature illegible).
2) on body 4: A registered postcard no. 0112 from Tarnopol with cancellation "Tarnopol 12/X40". The manuscript text and address are obliterated.
3) on body 101: Receipt no. 10293 dated 19.XII.1939, issued in camp Koselsk, for pawn of a gold watch accepted by LEVANDOVSKY EDUARD ADAMOVICH. The reverse of this receipt bears a note dated 14 March 1941, stating that the watch had been sold to "Jewelry Trading Trust".
4) on body 46: A receipt issued in Starobelsk camp on 16.XII.1939 for the pawn of a gold watch accepted by ARASZKEVICZ VLADIMIR RUDOLFOVICH. The reverse of the receipt bears a note dated 25 March 1941, stating that the watch had been sold to "Jewelry Trading Trust".
5) on body 71: A devotional image of paper with a picture of Jesus, discovered between pages 144 and 145 of a Catholic prayer book. The reverse of the devotional image bears a legible note with signature "Jadvinja" and date "4 April 1941".
6) on body 46: A receipt issued in camp no. 1ON on 5 May 1941 for the deposit of a sum of money in the amount of 225 rubels accepted by ARASZKEVICZ.
7) on the same body (46): A receipt issued in camp no. 1ON on 6 April 1941 for the deposit of a sum of money in the amount of 102 rubels accepted by ARASZKEVICZ.
8) on body 101: A receipt issued in camp no. 1ON on 18 May 1941 for the deposit of a sum of money in the amount of 175 rubels accepted by LEVANDOVSKY.
9) on body 53: An unforwarded postcard in the Polish language with the address:
Warsaw, Bagatelia 15, house 47,
Irene Kuczinska, date: 20 June 1941.
Sender: Stanislav Kuczinska.
The last document, number 9, was read to the international press in January 1944 when the Soviets invited them to the Katyn site. W. H. Lawrence of the NYT reported from Smolensk:
The Russians presented documentary evidence that the prisoners had been alive after March, 1940, and let us read a letter from a Polish prisoner, Stanislaus Kuchinski, written but never mailed to his wife in Warsaw on June 20, 1941, just two days before the German invasion of the Soviet Union began.
We saw the body of Kuchinski whose letter to his wife we later read at the commission's office in Smolensk. That letter began "My dear little Sunbeam." The writer expressed his love and affection and gave thanks for the gift recently sent him. It authorized his wife, Irena, to sell his belongings so that she should eat well, and requested her to keep a daily diary for forwarding to him, because he hungered for details of her existence. (NYT, 27 Jan 1944, pg. 3)
USSR-54 also refers to a notebook/diary belonging to Boris Menshagin, the mayor.
The testimony of Bazilevsky and Jefimow is strengthened by documentary evidence in the form of handwritten notes by MENSHAGIN, in his own handwriting, jotted down in his notebook.

This notebook, containing 17 full pages, was found in the files of the city administration of Smolensk after its liberation. The fact that this notebook belonged to MENSHAGIN, and was also in his handwriting, is confirmed both by the testimony of Bazilevsky, who was well familiar with MENSHAGIN's handwriting, and by graphological reports.

As may be seen from the dates contained in the notebook, the contents concern the period from the early days of August 1941 until November of the same year.

Among the various notes with regards to economic matters (wood, electrical energy, commerce, etc.) there are a number of notes concerning instructions from the commander of Smolensk, made by MENSHAGIN in order not to forget them.

From these notes, it may be clearly seen that the city administration was concerned with a number of matters as the body carrying out all the instructions of the German command.

The first of the three pages of the note book describe the organization of the Ghetto and the system of reprisals to be carried out relating to the Jews.
Page 10, dated 15 August 1941, states: "All escaped Polish prisoners of war are to be arrested and brought to the command post."
Page 15 (without date), states: "Are there any rumours circulating among the populace of shootings of Polish prisoners of war at Kozy Gory (to Umnov)?"

From the initial notes, it may be seen that, on 15 August 1941, the Polish prisoners of war were still in the region of Smolensk, and that they were furthermore being arrested by the German authorities.

The second note proves that the German command, disturbed by the possibility of the existence of rumours among the civilian population about crimes committed by the Germans, gave special instructions to investigate the matter. Umnov, who is mentioned in the note, was chief of the Russian police in Smolensk during the first months of the occupation.
This purpose of this notebook was to incriminate the Germans by proving that the Poles were still alive in August 1941. But they weren't alive. Ergo the notebook must have been a forgery.

False Witnesses

USSR-54 refers to "the testimonies of the 100 witnesses interrogated by the Commission." These testimonies were necessarily fraudulent. They say for example that they have numerous witnesses that testified the Poles were still alive in September 1941 which we know is not true.
That the Polish prisoners of war remained behind in the camps of the region of Smolensk was confirmed by the testimony of the numerous witnesses, who had seen these Poles in the vicinity of the city of Smolensk in the early months of the occupation until the month of September 1941.
It is also clear the Russians pressured witnesses who'd earlier testified against them. The witness Kiselev (Kiselyoff) had signed a statement for the Germans incriminating the Russians. But he changed his story for the Soviet investigators, claiming the Germans had tortured him to procure his perjured testimony. Witness Zakarov had a similar story.

Fraudulent Forensic Claims

The "Forensic Medical Expert Commission" concluded "that the shootings took place during a period approximately 2 years ago, that is, in the months of September-December 1941;" which is of course false, and off by more than a year.

Strangely, they also claim an incorrect number of bodies.
The graves were excavated by order of the Special Commission, and in the presence of all members of the Special Commission and the forensic experts. A great number of corpses in Polish uniforms were discovered in the graves. According to the calculations of the forensic experts, the number of corpses amounts, in total, to 11,000.
It appears that here they merely took the early figures from German press releases (usually 10,000-12,000). The official German Katyn report listed a lower figure of 4,143 bodies that had been disinterred, and the ultimate number of bodies for this site was only perhaps a couple hundred higher than that. The total number of Polish officers killed was higher than this, but the bodies were not buried at this particular site.

USSR-54 also mentions "graphological reports" used to authenticate the handwriting on the fake Menshagin diaries.
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Re: Did the Soviets forge Katyn documents? Yes

Post by Eye of Zyclone »

True. The Soviets undeniably forged documents to blame the Germans for the Katyn massacre. And they dismissed the documents proving their own guilt as alleged German forgeries. Moreover they exempted themselves from providing physical evidence for their own anti-German atrocity propaganda by claiming that the Katyn affair (allegedly a Soviet "exposure of the German atrocities") had made the Germans destroy any physical evidence (especially mass graves) for their alleged crimes, that is, the "Holocaust." How convenient, isn't it?

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Re: Did the Soviets forge Katyn documents? Yes

Post by bombsaway »

Archie wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2026 6:56 am And bombsaway has similarly claimed there was no forgery.
The documents I had in mind were German government documents, the kind that exist in copious quantity - and which revisionists think are in large part faked - for mass shooting events like Babi Yar.

https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... 29-30.html

If they were doing this, it should have been elementary for them to also create similar documents evincing German done Katyn.

They didn't do it, because those faked documents would have to have real German names attached to them, and only in the cartoon conspiracy world of revisionists do people reliably admit culpability for crimes they have not done.

It seems like the Soviets got a single German to admit culpability, but this was only temporary. He recanted his testimony while in Soviet captivity (where they could have done anything to him as punishment), saying he been forced to make false claims.

https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... enced.html

Of the many hundreds of Germans who made similarly "false" Holocaust testimony, none recanted. This entire comparison is a pie in the face of the 'cartoon conspiracy' crowd, which the vast majority of revisionists on this forum are part of.
Last edited by bombsaway on Fri Aug 28, 2026 1:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Did the Soviets forge Katyn documents? Yes

Post by Eye of Zyclone »

bombsaway wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2026 12:55 pm and only in the cartoon conspiracy world of revisionists do people reliably admit culpability for crimes they have not done.
Wrong! The extortion and use of false confessions was even the standard procedure at Soviet show trials. One of Vyshinsky's favorite tricks. And things like The Innocence Project and the case of Wilhelm Hoettl and his mendacious affidavit ("false confession for immunity" deal) showed that it was not only a Soviet practice.

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Last edited by Eye of Zyclone on Fri Aug 28, 2026 1:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Did the Soviets forge Katyn documents? Yes

Post by bombsaway »

Eye of Zyclone wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2026 1:21 pm
bombsaway wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2026 12:55 pm and only in the cartoon conspiracy world of revisionists do people reliably admit culpability for crimes they have not done.
Wrong! The extortion and use of false confessions was even the standard procedure at Soviet show trials. One of Vyshinsky's favorite tricks. And things like The Innocence Project and the case of Wilhelm Hoettl and his mendacious affidavit ("false confession for immunity" deal) showed that it was not only a Soviet practice.
To say that people in an absolute sense don't falsely confess is obviously untrue. Whether they reliably do so, in climates that are not extremely repressive (like that of Western Europe) is another story. The simple fact is the Soviets weren't able to get single German witness on their side with Katyn. No one at Nuremberg -- one person at a Soviet show trial, who later recanted.
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Re: Did the Soviets forge Katyn documents? Yes

Post by Eye of Zyclone »

bombsaway wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2026 1:27 pm The simple fact is the Soviets weren't able to get single German witness on their side with Katyn. No one at Nuremberg -- one person at a Soviet show trial, who later recanted.
It's not that they were not able to get one. It's that they didn't even try to get one. They didn't need it. It was superfluous. Their case was irrefutable (sic), it was claimed, even without it.
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Re: Did the Soviets forge Katyn documents? Yes

Post by bombsaway »

Yeah I get the cope is that they failed to do these things because they weren't trying.

But they absolutely did need it, eg they failed to get a verdict at Nuremberg.
Background and Indictment

The Charge: The Soviet Union included an accusation in the Nuremberg indictment claiming that German forces murdered 11,000 Polish officers in the Katyn Forest near Smolensk in September 1941.

The Prosecution: During the trial sessions in February 1946, the Soviet prosecution submitted the official findings of the Soviet Burdenko Commission/Extraordinary State Commission, alleging Nazi guilt.

The Defense: German defense counsel challenged the charges and presented witnesses to argue that the Soviet NKVD executed the Polish prisoners of war in 1940.

The Outcome

Omission from the Verdict: Because the tribunal could not definitively attribute the crime to the German defendants based on the contested evidence and cross-examinations, the judges chose not to include Katyn in the final judgment.
You can see from the above as well that the German defense vigorously challenged despite judicial notice and all of those things that revisionists say prevented any challenge about Holocaust claims. The cartoon conspiracy crowd is in shambles.
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Re: Did the Soviets forge Katyn documents? Yes

Post by Eye of Zyclone »

bombsaway wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2026 1:42 pm Yeah I get the cope is that they failed to do these things because they weren't trying.

But they absolutely did need it, eg they failed to get a verdict at Nuremberg.
The verdict of the Nuremberg show trial was of a rather general nature, with only a few huge bogus crimes specifically mentioned in it. Inserting a small crime like the shooting of 12,000 soldiers during the greatest war of all time into the Nuremberg verdict would have been quite ridiculous and even laughable. Plus, the Anglo-American Allies were terrified at the prospect of being caught in an all-too-obvious lie once again after the fiasco of the interwar period. Very probably the real reason why they didn't let Stalin insert his patently-fraudulent Katyn narrative into their joint verdict at the Nuremberg show trial. They were just covering their own asses. Basic precaution.

And the orthodox/antirevisionist historians blamed the Germans for the Katyn massacre for decades after WW2 anyway, thus showing that it was indeed superfluous to secure false confessions from German soldiers about the Katyn massacre.
Last edited by Eye of Zyclone on Fri Aug 28, 2026 2:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Did the Soviets forge Katyn documents? Yes

Post by bombsaway »

Eye of Zyclone wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2026 2:00 pm

The verdict of the Nuremberg show trial was of a rather general nature, with only a few huge bogus crimes specifically mentioned in it.

The Nuremberg judgments were extremely extensive. The main 1946 International Military Tribunal (IMT) judgment was not merely a list of guilty/not-guilty verdicts. It was a roughly 170-page judicial reconstruction of the Nazi regime, the origins and conduct of the war, major categories of Nazi atrocities, the responsibility of specific institutions, and the individual responsibility of each defendant. It was then supplemented by 12 major Nuremberg trials dealing with doctors, judges, industrialists, SS administrators, Einsatzgruppen commanders, diplomats, and military officers.
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Re: Did the Soviets forge Katyn documents? Yes

Post by bombsaway »

Eye of Zyclone wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2026 2:00 pm Very probably the real reason why they didn't let Stalin insert his patently-fraudulent Katyn narrative into their joint verdict at the Nuremberg show trial. They were just covering their own asses. Basic precaution.

And the orthodox/antirevisionist historians blamed the Germans for the Katyn massacre for decades after WW2 anyway, thus showing that it was indeed superfluous to secure false confessions from German soldiers about the Katyn massacre.
This is good stuff. For the cartoon conspiracy crowd, yeah the fact conspiracies can be easily exposed is a big reason that states are reluctant to engage in them, and the bigger they are the more difficult it is to keep them secret. The Holocaust hoax conspriacy dwarfs Katyn in scale so would be a much much easier to expose. A single witness talking at length and compellingly about resettlement could threaten to unravel the whole thing

Pray tell, which orthodox historians said the Germans did it? I get that Soviet historians would, but that's not what you're talking about is it?
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Re: Did the Soviets forge Katyn documents? Yes

Post by Eye of Zyclone »

bombsaway wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2026 2:10 pm
Eye of Zyclone wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2026 2:00 pm

The verdict of the Nuremberg show trial was of a rather general nature, with only a few huge bogus crimes specifically mentioned in it.

The Nuremberg judgments were extremely extensive. The main 1946 International Military Tribunal (IMT) judgment was not merely a list of guilty/not-guilty verdicts. It was a roughly 170-page judicial reconstruction of the Nazi regime, the origins and conduct of the war, major categories of Nazi atrocities, the responsibility of specific institutions, and the individual responsibility of each defendant. It was then supplemented by 12 major Nuremberg trials dealing with doctors, judges, industrialists, SS administrators, Einsatzgruppen commanders, diplomats, and military officers.
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Believe it or not, but to the victors of WW2 those show trials mainly aimed to prove that the Germans had planned, caused and started the Second World War and consequently that the victors were mere peace-loving "good guys" who had been forcibly drawn into a war of self-defense that they had not wanted in the first place. To them, the Holohoax atrocity story was a minor topic only meant to prove the veracity of their alleged own innocence regarding the outbreak and spread of the war, in accordance with a psychological manipulation tactic already used during the previous world war. In their judgement, the Holohoax was more a sensationalist sidenote than the real core of it.

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Re: Did the Soviets forge Katyn documents? Yes

Post by Eye of Zyclone »

bombsaway wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2026 2:17 pm This is good stuff. For the cartoon conspiracy crowd, yeah the fact conspiracies can be easily exposed is a big reason that states are reluctant to engage in them
The Katyn massacre was not a conspiracy. It was a wartime mass execution. Something very commonplace, and which is only considered a war crime when it is attributed to the defeated (who are not those who write history books, as the saying goes).

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Re: Did the Soviets forge Katyn documents? Yes

Post by bombsaway »

the conspiracy I refer to is obviously the one Archie references, where the Soviets tried to pin Katyn on the Germans.
Eye of Zyclone wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2026 2:32 pm
Believe it or not, but to the victors of WW2 those show trials mainly aimed to prove that the Germans had planned, caused and started the Second World War and consequently that the victors were mere peace-loving "good guys" who had been forcibly drawn into a war of self-defense that they had not wanted in the first place. To them, the Holohoax atrocity story was a minor topic only meant to prove the veracity of their alleged own innocence regarding the outbreak and spread of the war, in accordance with a psychological manipulation tactic already used during the previous world war. In their judgement, the Holohoax was more a sensationalist sidenote than the real core of it.
So before you said "Plus, the Anglo-American Allies were terrified at the prospect of being caught in an all-too-obvious lie once again after the fiasco of the interwar period. "

so they risked all this for a "minor topic"? if holohoax theory is true then it is the biggest known hoax in history by far. I don't think you can have it both ways.
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Re: Did the Soviets forge Katyn documents? Yes

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bombsaway wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2026 2:58 pm So before you said "Plus, the Anglo-American Allies were terrified at the prospect of being caught in an all-too-obvious lie once again after the fiasco of the interwar period. "

so they risked all this for a "minor topic"? if holohoax theory is true then it is the biggest known hoax in history by far. I don't think you can have it both ways.
Yes, they did. Atrocity propaganda lies were too beneficial for their 'good war' narrative (and the huge political interests that depended on it) to be completely excluded from their narrative. But a blatant lie like the German guilt in the Katyn massacre had a very high probability of backfiring on them after a while. Simply a matter of the risk-benefit ratio.
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Re: Did the Soviets forge Katyn documents? Yes

Post by bombsaway »

I'd say Holohoax has to have a much higher backfire probability, given the fact of the manufacturing of so much false testimony and documents - much more extensive than what exists for German-done Katyn. You also would need millions of people to stay quiet.

As I said before, one compelling testimony about resettlement could dismantle the whole thing.
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