The Wetzel Lohse document [NO-365]

[Stubble]

I ran across this one today and I'm scratching my head.

https://phdn.org/histgen/documents/wetzel411025.html

Personally I think this looks like a letter talking about hygiene fumigation equipment manufactured in Germany and making fumigation chambers on site for the jewish action in Riga.

At the end it appears to reference something previously discussed about how to deal with jews unfit for work.

Am I misreading this?

mod edit: adding alternate link and added doc number
https://nuremberg.law.harvard.edu/documents/715272

[bombsaway]

"Given the current situation, there can be no qualms about eliminating Jews unfit for work using Brack's method."

[Stubble]

Given the circumstances, there are no objections to those Jews who are incapable of work being removed by means of Brack's methods.

It depends on how you read it Mr Extermination....

It depends on how you read it.

I'll put your token in the 'Stubble has misinterpreted the document' pile.

[Archie]

The two people are Dr. Erhard Wetzel and Hinrich Lohse. The letter is generally described as a draft and appears to have never been sent. Wetzel managed to avoid prosecution and died in 1975. Apparently they didn't start investigating him until the 60s but nothing ever came of it.

Samuel Crowell did a fair bit of work on this document (see page 308 of his book). The original orthodox interpretation was that the Vergasungsapparate referred to were stationary homicidal gas chambers. However, seeing as it is not alleged that there were stationary gas chambers in Riga, they later changed this to gas vans (rather arbitrarily) which are said to have operated in the east.

Crowell suggests the phrase der erforderlichen Unterkünfte sowie der Vergasungsapparate should be translated “the necessary buildings as well as the fumigation vaults.” The Nuremberg translation has "the necessary shelters as well as the gassing apparatus." Crowell produces examples demonstrating that Vergasungsapparate was in fact used in a fumigation context. In contrast, "we're going to send you the shelters and gas vans" seems strained.

In support of this interpretation, there is documentary evidence that the Tesch company sent men to Riga in the fall of 1941 to train people to do fumigations.

Evidence can be found in the transcripts of the Tesch-Weinbacher trial that show that Tesch employees went to Riga in the fall of 1941 to instruct people on how to use Zyklon B for disinfection; the discovery, by the British historian David Irving, of an Enigma decode in the PRO files that confirmed the visit by Tesch personnel to Riga; and a cache of correspondence between Tesch and Riga over quantities of Zyklon and how it was to be used. (This latter cache was misunderstood by Raul Hilberg and led him to make the erroneous assertion about the existence of later grades of Zyklon D, E, and F.) (Crowell, 311)

See also: https://codoh.com/library/document/aspe ... sch-trial/

Crowell also notes that Orthodox historian Christian Gerlach, in an article about Eichmann, makes the curious comment in a footnote that the meeting between Wetzel, Brack, and Eichmann "probably never took place" which, in Crowell's view, would imply that NO-365 is a forgery (along with the related documents NO-997 and NO-998). If it was forged, presumably they had Wetzel write it up after the war in exchange for some sort of immunity (which he got). Whether an authentic 1941 document or a postwar fake (with Wetzel's cooperation) at least some of the draft letter is based in fact since we've already noted that the Zyklon B fumigation chambers are corroborated by the Tesch visits.

There is also the matter of the reference to "doing away with those Jews who are not able to work, with the Brack remedy." The most natural reading is that this is a reference to euthanizing Jews unfit for labor. The word beseitigt (translated "doing away," from beseitigen - to remove) could be interpreted more mildly, but seeing as Brack was involved with the euthanasia program, that suggestion is rather strained. The orthodox interpretation assume that the "Brack remedy" and the Vergasungsapparate are one and the same; however, these phrases are in different paragraphs. That is an assumption they are making.

A few mysteries remain about this document, but imo the Tesch visits strongly point to a fumigation interpretation of the gassing apparatus.

[Stubble]

There is also the matter of the reference to "doing away with those Jews who are not able to work, with the Brack remedy." The most natural reading is that this is a reference to euthanizing Jews unfit for labor. The word beseitigt (translated "doing away," from beseitigen - to remove) could be interpreted more mildly, but seeing as Brack was involved with the euthanasia program, that suggestion is rather strained. The orthodox interpretation assume that the "Brack remedy" and the Vergasungsapparate are one and the same; however, these phrases are in different paragraphs. That is an assumption they are making.

Brack was a bean counter with some study in ag. Why would you put him in charge of euthanasia? No, an economic Operation makes far more sense.

[Archie]

There is also the matter of the reference to "doing away with those Jews who are not able to work, with the Brack remedy." The most natural reading is that this is a reference to euthanizing Jews unfit for labor. The word beseitigt (translated "doing away," from beseitigen - to remove) could be interpreted more mildly, but seeing as Brack was involved with the euthanasia program, that suggestion is rather strained. The orthodox interpretation assume that the "Brack remedy" and the Vergasungsapparate are one and the same; however, these phrases are in different paragraphs. That is an assumption they are making.

Brack was a bean counter with some study in ag. Why would you put him in charge of euthanasia? No, an economic Operation makes far more sense.

I'm not aware of any authors who have seriously challenged his involvement with T4.

On the day Germany’s armed forces invaded Poland, Hitler signed an order permitting the “mercy killing” of severely mentally disabled persons in what is called Germany’s Euthanasia Program. In charge of the program was Viktor Brack, a high official in the Reich’s Chancellery. The program was also called Aktion T4, an acronym for the Berlin address of Brack’s office, Tiergartenstrasse 4.

https://holocaustencyclopedia.com/event/euthanasia/502/

[bombsaway]

Nach Sachlage bestehen keine Bedenken, wenn diejenigen Juden, die nicht arbeitsfähig sind, mit den Brackschen Hilfsmitteln beseitigt werden. Auf diese Weise dürften dann auch Vorgänge, wie sie sich bei den Erschießungen von Juden in Wilna nach einem mir vorliegenden Bericht ergeben haben, und die auch im Hinblick darauf, daß die Erschießungen öffentlich vorgenommen wurden, kaum gebilligt werden können, nicht mehr möglich sein. Die Arbeitsfähigen dagegen werden zum Arbeitseinsatz nach Osten abtransportiert. Daß bei den arbeitsfähigen Juden Männer und Frauen getrennt zu halten sind, dürfte selbstverständlich sein.

As matters stand, there are no objections to those Jews who are not fit for work being eliminated by means of the Brack apparatus. In this way, occurrences such as those that arose in connection with the shootings of Jews in Vilna — according to a report available to me — and which, given that the shootings were carried out publicly, can hardly be approved of, would no longer be possible. Those fit for work, on the other hand, will be transported east for labor deployment. It should go without saying that among the Jews fit for work, men and women are to be kept separate.

It's pretty self evidently about killing. You could say it's just one guys opinion maybe.

Google is translating beseitigt as eliminated btw, even just the single word absent of any context. But even if we go with removal it's obvious what he is talking about. What is that about public shootings of Jews in Vilna?

[Stubble]

Dude, the word can mean;

Remove
Abolish
Eliminate

I know you are standing on that hill 'it only means killing, it is self explanatory and obvious, and, you are some kind of aberrant zoo creature because of how you think', but, you're wrong.

Going back and reading Crowell I don't seem to be far from him on my initial take. Remarkable we both hit the same conclusion just, you know, looking at it. I also wanted fo see surrounding memorandum, so did he. The October 4th letter would really help to contextualize this one, you know?

To be clear, are you arguing that they built homicidal gas chambers in, Riga, bombsaway?

[bombsaway]

No. The letter is clearly an opinion, not a statement something occurred.

Nice deflection from the reference about Jews being shot

But what was the Brack apparatus, and why were only working Jews exempt? The hygienic process angle makes no sense.

[Stubble]

Deflection? Jews were shot in Vilna bombsaway. During an occupation, during a war, as it was being cleared out, because of partisan conflict, mainly perpetrated by jews in the area. Hardly a revelation or surprising.

That doesn't mean that this letter is talking about 'killing' unfit jews. It is talking about removing them. It may mean killing, it may not. I need to see the referenced memorandum for context. The October 4th letter referenced.

The working jews would have been deloused at their camps on arrival during intake. Why do it twice?

[bombsaway]

Well tell me what he means by this sentence

"In this way, occurrences such as those that arose in connection with the shootings of Jews in Vilna — according to a report available to me — and which, given that the shootings were carried out publicly, can hardly be approved of, would no longer be possible."

I would say he is saying that the public mass shootings of Jews are a bad look and this method would offer a more discrete method of killing.

And what was the Brack apparatus, and why did it apply only to non-working Jews?

[Archie]

No. The letter is clearly an opinion, not a statement something occurred.

Nice deflection from the reference about Jews being shot

But what was the Brack apparatus, and why were only working Jews exempt? The hygienic process angle makes no sense.

I already said this, but Vergasungsapparate and Brack remedy are in different paragraphs. The hygienic interpretation absolutely makes sense for Vergasungsapparate since we know for a fact that Tesch was setting up Zyklon B chambers in Riga in fall 1941. Under your theory (gas vans? don't know since you haven't said) the Tesch visits are purely coincidental.

[bombsaway]

No. The letter is clearly an opinion, not a statement something occurred.

Nice deflection from the reference about Jews being shot

But what was the Brack apparatus, and why were only working Jews exempt? The hygienic process angle makes no sense.

I already said this, but Vergasungsapparate and Brack remedy are in different paragraphs. The hygienic interpretation absolutely makes sense for Vergasungsapparate since we know for a fact that Tesch was setting up Zyklon B chambers in Riga in fall 1941. Under your theory (gas vans? don't know since you haven't said) the Tesch visits are purely coincidental.

What was the Brack apparatus, and why did it apply only to non-working Jews?

[Archie]

What was the Brack apparatus, and why did it apply only to non-working Jews?

Brack apparatus? Not what it says.

[Nazgul]

What was the Brack apparatus, and why did it apply only to non-working Jews?

Here is the translation
"According to the state of affairs, there are no objections if those Jews who are unable to work are eliminated using the Brackian remedies. In this way, incidents such as those resulting from the shootings of Jews in Vilna according to a report available to me, and which could hardly be approved of in view of the fact that the shootings were carried out publicly, should no longer be possible. The able-bodied, on the other hand, will be transported to the East for labor deployment. That men and women are to be kept separate among the able-bodied Jews should be a matter of course."

Brackschen Hilfsmitteln (Brackian remedies/devices): Refers to Viktor Brack, an official in the Führer Chancellery who helped organize the T4 euthanasia programme and possibly 14f13. These are the people too ill to work and euthanized; Muselmänner

Arbeitseinsatz nach Osten (labor deployment to the East): The phrasing used by Nazi administration for deportation to forced labor camps; Zwangarbeitlager für Juden.