The Testimony and Statements of Konrad Morgan

[Stubble]

At the behest of bombsaway I am starting this thread. Here are the testimonies in question;

I'll post the whole thing behind a spoiler. It's volume 21 'Blue Series' pages 488-515 if 'leo' is correct. Sorry for saying green series earlier.

(Leo appears to be incorrect. Time to brew some coffee)

Here is his account of his visit to Lublin:

Spoiler

https://sfo2.digitaloceanspaces.com/har ... 337001.jpg

https://sfo2.digitaloceanspaces.com/har ... 337002.jpg

https://sfo2.digitaloceanspaces.com/har ... 337003.jpg

And from the IMT Blue Series V-XX (also on slightly different page numbers).

One Hundred
and Ninety-Seventh Day
Wednesday; 7 August 1946

https://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/08-07-46.asp

And the following day;

https://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/08-08-46.asp

There seems to be some question about homicidal gas chambers with regard to these statements. Let's read them and see what the man said, shall we?

[Stubble]

And this seems to be the statement in question;

Spoiler

HEIRR PELCKMANN: Please go on, Witness, to describe your investigations.

MORGEN: I asked Wirth what this had to do with the Jewish wedding. Then, Wirth described the method by which he carried out the extermination of Jews, and he said something like this: "One has to fight the Jews with their own weapons, that is to say "pardon me for using this expression-"one has to cheat them."

Wirth staged an enormous deceptive maneuver. He first selected Jews who would, he thought, serve as column leaders, then these Jews brought along other Jews, who worked under them. With that smaller or medium-sized detachment of Jews, he began to build up the extermination camps. He extended this staff of Jews, and with these Jews Wirth himself carried out the extermination of the Jews.

Wirth said that he had four extermination camps and that about 5,000 Jews were working at the extermination of Jews and the seizure of Jewish property. In order to win Jews for this business of extermination and plundering of their brethren of race and creed, Wirth gave them every freedom and, so to speak, gave them a financial interest in the spoliation of the dead victims. As a result of this attitude, this sumptuous Jewish wedding had come about.

Then I asked Wirth how he killed Jews with these Jewish agents of his. Wirth described the whole procedure that went off like a film every time. The extermination camps were in the east of the Government General, in big forests or uninhabited wastelands. They were built up like a Potemkin village. The people arriving there had the impression of entering a city or a township. The train drove into a dummy railroad station. After the escorts and the train personnel had left the area, the cars were opened and the Jews got out. They were surrounded by these Jewish labor detachments, and Kriminalkommissar Wirth or one of his representatives made a speech. He said, "Jews, you were brought here to be resettled, but

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before we organize this future Jewish State, you must of course learn how to work. You must learn a new trade. You will be taught that here. Our routine here is, first, every one must take off his clothes so that your clothing can be disinfected, and you can have a bath so that no epidemics will be brought into the camp."

After he had found such calming words for his victims, they started on the road to death. Men and women were separated. At the first place, one had to deliver the hat; at the next one, the coat, collar, shirt, down to the shoes and socks. These places were faked cloakrooms, and the person was given a check at each one so that the people believed that they would get their things back. The other Jews had to receive the things and hurry up the new arrivals so that they should not have time to think. The whole thing was like an assembly line. After the last stop they reached a big room, and were told that this was the bath. When the last one was in, the doors were shut and the gas was let into the room.

As soon as death had set in, the ventilators were started. When the air could be breathed again, the doors were opened, and the Jewish workers removed the bodies. By means of a special procedure which Wirth had invented, they were burned in the open air without the use of fuel.

There are some things that stand out to me, but, I'll leave that for future discourse.

[bombsaway]

What's the point of this? I'm not trying to argue that Morgen is a "good" witness with you. You're clearly a fanatic and will discount whatever he says on the sheer basis that the acts described are impossible, as you deem it.

I brought up Morgen for the purposes of demonstrating that the other poster is wrong, that Morgen did not deny, or state lack of knowledge about extermination activities he should have been aware of, quite the opposite.

[Wahrheitssucher]

What's the point of this?

…You're clearly a fanatic and will discount whatever he says…

What a comedian.
And this from the person who just denied that Richard Baer is recorded as being quoted in French press and interrogation reports completely and utterly refuting mass gassings of jooze anywhere.

I brought up Morgen for the purposes of demonstrating that the other poster is wrong…

That is a false statement.
It was I who brought up Morgen and this deceiver avoided that for three posts.

… Morgen did not deny, or state lack of knowledge about extermination activities he should have been aware of, quite the opposite.

Strawman.
This person is of low intelligence and/or replying dishonestly.
I have explained all this twice, but apparently to no avail.

Morgen first denied knowledge in his first court appearance but on a subsequent appearance narrated being aware of a fictitious ‘extermination’ with gas at Monowitz.

SUMMARY:
This person isn’t arguing in good faith.

[bombsaway]

Provide whatever quotes you can, just make sure they're well sourced. Otherwise you're blathering and adding little value to this thread. I simply don't care about what you have to say, other than if you show sourced quotes. Every serious revisionist does this.

If Morgen denied, show us. I'm expecting more blather because I don't think such statements by Morgen exist, and I won't be responding.

[Wahrheitssucher]

… I simply don't care about what you have to say, other than if you show sourced quotes…

Yeah, yeah!
We all saw how that worked with sourced quotes of Richard Baer.

If Morgen denied, show us.
…I don't think such statements by Morgen exist, and I won't be responding.

Hmmmm?
Interesting debating technique.
You don’t care what I write AND you won’t respond to it.

So why should I do the research for you, and the home-work that I initially challenged you to do?

SUMMARY
The difference between us appears to be:
A.) I have ACTUALLY done the research.
I have read the primary source material of Morgen’s Nürnberg trial testimony. You haven’t.
I have referred to it here, have summarised it, and I challenged you to contradict it.

B.) You haven’t done the research.
You have NOT read his trial testimony plus you now refuse to.
You refuse to read it and you refuse to respond to my initial challenge to you concerning it.

So… yet ANOTHER EPIC FAIL.

THE REALITY
For anyone unfamiliar with Konrad Morgen’s evolving testimony — his initial denial of exterminations in the camps he visited; his testimony regarding the excellent conditions of camp inmates; his initial denial then invention of Monowitz as an ‘extermination camp’, then go here for a brief summary including quotes and references:

https://encyclopedia.historiography-pro ... index.html

or here:

https://holocaustencyclopedia.com/witne ... onrad/696/

[Stubble]

Bombsaway: asks for the testimony and statements of Konrad Morgen.

Also Bombsaway: I don't know the point of this...

Regarding my being a fanatic, please do excuse my being skeptical about some of the contents of his testimony. If you could kindly explain to me the process of cremating a body with no fuel developed by Wirth, that would be helpful. There is also the question of what gas he refers to, it doesn't seem to be engine exhaust. Another problem here is he describes a ventilation being done at the Bug River camps after gassing. Anybody else ever talk about venting the homicidal gas chambers at those camps? There's a lot of testimony, right, and witness statements? Anybody else? Anyone at all?

I'm also surprised he didn't go with steam chambers as that is what is in the expert report from the Polish Government in Exile the Americans submitted to The Tribunal...

The guy said what he was told to say or he repeated atrocity propaganda rumors, point blank. He did so to dodge the noose. He also, you know, mentions being tortured and beaten in John Toland's 'Adolf Hitler' c1976 p845.

You can not square this. He executed 2 separate men for unauthorized killings of a handful of inmates, and yet, turned a blind eye to the murder of millions? It doesn't make any sense.

RE: He never denied the existence of gas chambers...

Spoiler

HERR PELCKMANN: Since so many visitors to concentration camps say they were deceived, do you consider it possible that you, too, were a victim of such deceit?

MORGEN: I have just pointed out that I was not a mere visitor to a concentration camp but I had settled down there for a long residence, I might almost say I established myself there. It is almost impossible to be deceived for such a long time. In addition, the commissions from the Reich Criminal Police Department worked under my instructions, and I placed them directly in the concentration camps themselves. I do not mean to say that in spite of these very intensive efforts I was able to learn of all the crimes, but I believe that there was no deception in regard to what I did learn.

HERR PELCKMANN: Did you gain the impression, and at what time, that the concentration camps were places for the extermination of human beings?

MORGEN: I did not gain this impression. A concentration camp is not a place for the extermination of human beings. I must say that my first visit to a concentration camp-I mentioned the first one was Weimar-Buchenwald-was a great surprise to me. The

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camp is situated on wooded heights, with a wonderful view. The installations were clean and freshly painted. There was much lawn and flowers. The prisoners were healthy, normally fed, sun-tanned, working ...

PRESIDENT: When are you speaking of? When are you speaking of?

MORGEN: I am speaking of the beginning of my investigations in July 1943.

HERR PELCKMANN: What crimes did you discover?

MORGEN: Pardon me, I had not-may I continue?

HERR PELCKMANN: Please, be more brief.

MORGEN: The installations of the camp were in good order, especially the hospital. The camp authorities, under the Commander Diester, aimed at providing the prisoners with an existence worthy of human beings. They had regular mail service. They had a large camp library, even books in foreign languages. They had variety shows, motion pictures, sporting contests and even had a brothel. Nearly all the other concentration camps were similar to Buchenwald.

PRESIDENT: What was it they even had?

MORGEN: A brothel.

There is also his testimony, I assume about Wirths, but, perhaps Mengele;

Spoiler

HERR PELCKMANN: Did you speak to the doctor of the Concentration Camp Auschwitz?

MORGEN: Yes. When I arrived, the doctor showed me the mortality figures at the time he took over. He pointed out with a gleam in his eye how since his transfer to Auschwitz these huge figures had dropped precipitately through extensive hygienic measures and changes. In this connection he came to talk about Grabner. Grabner had expected him to kill pregnant Polish women. The doctor had refused since it was irreconcilable with his professional duties. Thereupon Grabner had reproached him for not realizing the importance of his, Grabner's, tasks. The doctor did not give in and a quarrel arose which was carried on before the commander, and neither Hoess nor Grawitz said anything. Thus the doctor, at the time when I met him by accident, was in a distressed frame of mind and said "What shall I do?" I said to him "What you have done so far, absolute refusal, is quite in order, and tomorrow I will arrest Grabner."

You can see that the preservation of life was important to the good doctor, not the extermination of it. How one squares this with his supposed observations of the homicidal gassings, I can not say, and yet, those on the other side of this issue do.

In July of '43, conditions in the camps were good (barring the odd calamity of epidemic here or there), internees were healthy, tanned and working. It wasn't until the collapse that living conditions became problematic.

[bombsaway]

WOW you found testimony that he denied gassings at Buchenwald, a place where no credible evidence of gassings has surfaced.

MORGEN: As supreme orders I consider the mass extermination of human beings which has already been described, not in the concentration camps but in separate extermination places. There were also execution orders of the Reich Security Main Office against individuals and groups of persons.,,

The third point deals with the majority of individual crimes of which I said ...

THE PRESIDENT: Which is the witness talking about when he talks about extermination camps? Which are you talking about? Which do you call extermination camps?

HERR PELCKMANN: Please answer the question, Witness.

MORGEN: By extermination camps I mean those which were established exclusively for the extermination of human beings with the use of technical means, such as gas.

THE PRESIDENT: Which were they?

MORGEN: Yesterday I described the four camps of the Kriminalkommissar Wirth and referred to the Camp Auschwitz. By "Extermination Camp Auschwitz" I did not mean the concentration camp. It did not exist there. I meant a separate extermination camp near Auschwitz, called "Monowitz."

You are a fanatic (like every other revisionist poster here btw, you're not unique) because you would find his testimony 0% credible even if he didn't make the flub about Monowitz or had mentioned the non-existent fuel requirements.

These things can be explained in other ways than, 'he was told what to say and messed it up, because he was lying'.

[Stubble]

Bombsaway, you are either missing the point or buring the lead.

A concentration camp is not a place for the extermination of human beings. I must say that my first visit to a concentration camp-I mentioned the first one was Weimar-Buchenwald-was a great surprise to me. The camp is situated on wooded heights, with a wonderful view. The installations were clean and freshly painted. There was much lawn and flowers. The prisoners were healthy, normally fed, sun-tanned, working ...

Then there is his recollection of Dr Wirths who made strides to eleminate epidemics in Auschwitz and to improve the health of the detainees.

You also, you know, ignore the part where he was beaten and tortured between denying the existence of homicidal gas chambers at Buchenwald and then saying they existed at Auschwitz and the Bug River camps.

You know, when he said this;

As soon as death had set in, the ventilators were started. When the air could be breathed again, the doors were opened, and the Jewish workers removed the bodies. By means of a special procedure which Wirth had invented, they were burned in the open air without the use of fuel.

[bombsaway]

you are saying he was beaten between his testimony on August 7 (where he denied at Buchenwald) and August 8 when he spoke of general extermination?

https://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/08-08-46.asp

You are regarded.

[bombsaway]

Oh, he spoke of mass extermination conducted by Wirth on August 7. Deeply regarded this is.

[Stubble]

Hopefully warmly regarded. Thanks bombsaway...

Meanwhile, the guy was, you know, tortured and beaten...

Oh, and the museum gas chamber at Auschwitz main camp, according to Morgen, it is 2 things, both fake, and gay. That, fits with the forensic testing...

No homicidal gas chambers at Auschwitz Birkenau according to Morgen either.

Morgen and Christophersen were both under the impression extermination in homicidal gas chambers occurred at Monowitz...

Maybe we need to test the homicidal gas chambers there. Morgen is corroborated after all, right? Christophersen didn't find any crematoria or gas chambers there, but, what does that mean? It was super secret after all.

[Archie]

WOW you found testimony that he denied gassings at Buchenwald, a place where no credible evidence of gassings has surfaced.

[...]

You are a fanatic (like every other revisionist poster here btw, you're not unique) because you would find his testimony 0% credible even if he didn't make the flub about Monowitz or had mentioned the non-existent fuel requirements.

These things can be explained in other ways than, 'he was told what to say and messed it up, because he was lying'.

Do you have anything productive to say or are you just going to fall back on your usual tactics of insults and attempts at manipulation?

Re: Buchenwald, what is notable is not so much the gas chambers (which have never been a major theme there), but rather the fact that he was assigned by Himmler to investigate malfeasance by Koch and Koch was executed by the SS for murder and corruption. I'm sure you have some way in your own mind to square that with "the Holocaust," but most reasonable people would admit that it doesn't fit very well with the story we are told. Morgen also said the lampshade stuff (which I think you still believe in) was BS.

Regarding gassings, Morgen said there were gassings at Monowitz. How is that not a major blunder? Again, you aren't being objective.

Regarding his statements about the AR camps, all of his statements are secondhand, which according to your personal historiographical principles makes his testimony on that point totally worthless. I myself am open to considering secondhand sources, but you yourself have drawn an extremely strict line about this in the past and should stick to it.

There are other problems with his AR testimony.

HERR PELCKMANN: Did you hear from Wirth the name Hoess?
MORGEN: Yes. Wirth called him his untalented disciple.
HERR PELCKMANN: Why?
m
MOR'GEN: In contrast to Wirth, Hoess used in principle entirely
different methods. I would best describe them when we come to the
subject of Auschwitz. (IMT XX, pg 502)

Saying that Hoess was Wirth's "untalented disciple" strongly suggests to me reliance on Hoess's chronology. According to Hoess's story, he got orders from Himmler in 1941(!) to set up an extermination camp at Auschwitz. And he visited Treblinka as a template. Morgen's (fake) Wirth quote is relying on the bogus Hoess chronology.

His descriptions of the AR gassings is also dubious (as Stubble already quoted).

His description an "assembly line" with a "last stop" doesn't fit the layout. His description of the gassing is very vague (no mention of the gassing engine or type of gas). He thinks they had ventilators installed which is not claimed. And then, most laughably of all, the "without fuel" nonsense. Surely Wirth would not have told him such a thing but rather would have told him about the thousand plus tons of firewood that had to be delivered to Treblinka on a daily basis.

"...you would find his testimony 0% credible even if he didn't make the flub about Monowitz or had mentioned the non-existent fuel requirements."

But he DID make those flubs, bombs! We're just supposed to pretend like he didn't? I really don't understand what you are saying.

And to your larger point, if someone doesn't believe X, then by implication they don't believe any of the witnesses who say X. So what? If you don't believe in UFOs, you are rejecting "100%" of the UFO witnesses. If you won't believe in Jewish ritual murder, you are rejecting "100%" of the Jewish ritual murder witnesses, including many (hundreds?) of Jewish confessions. If you don't accept the resurrection of Jesus Christ, you rejecting "100 %" of the witnesses to that event. I don't know what all you believe and what all you don't and it doesn't really matter. But I'm guessing there are things you don't believe in despite there being witnesses.

"But that would mean ALL the witnesses are wrong!" Yes. Yes, it does. And ...?

[Stubble]

Archie,

For clarity, can you tell me, these murders by Koch, were they the 3 persons at Buchenwald? Or the 2,000,000 he gassed in the 8 homicidal gas chambers at Majdanek?

I'm, confused.

I will say that the testimony of Morgen fits neatly with 'The Holocaust Narrative 1.0'.

Hitler Order?
Mass gassing?
Aktion 1005 destroyed all trace?

Also it conforms to the Hoess Timetable.

Some time later these things were revised to better fit with some semblance of reality. Not right away though.

[Archie]

"Even if the evidence for the Holocaust were not as absurd as it is you guys still wouldn't believe in it!"

I think bombs would still believe in the Holocaust even if the witnesses were as ridiculous as they in fact are. And I don't even need to speculate about this or invoke hypotheticals.