Sobibór: Kola-Mazurek Discrepancies and Implications

[Callafangers]

I have shown you evidence Jews who died in the ghettos, were buried there.

Yet you fail miserably to answer the only question that matters: how many?

You have failed to provide any eyewitness, documentary or other evidence, of corpses of Jews who had died in the ghettos, being transported to the AR camps. You are lying when you say your narrative considers all evidence and historians ignore the physical evidence, as you ignore all the eyewitnesses and the physical evidence proves that mass graves were dug, corpses were exhumed and cremated. You just think the volume of cremains, is too small to account for c250,000 at Sobibor.

The evidence is circumstantial but it's obviously the only possible explanation for why we see a few hundred (at most several thousand) corpses' worth of remains at camps like Sobibor, rather than a quarter million.

Best of luck "explaining away" the obvious. Neutral minds won't buy it.

[Nessie]

I have shown you evidence Jews who died in the ghettos, were buried there.

Yet you fail miserably to answer the only question that matters: how many?

https://www.jewishnews.co.uk/archaeolog ... ten-world/

"An estimated 50,000 Jews who lie there have no stones at all — they were killed by hunger, disease or execution under the Nazis and consigned to two deep mass graves."

You have failed to provide any eyewitness, documentary or other evidence, of corpses of Jews who had died in the ghettos, being transported to the AR camps. You are lying when you say your narrative considers all evidence and historians ignore the physical evidence, as you ignore all the eyewitnesses and the physical evidence proves that mass graves were dug, corpses were exhumed and cremated. You just think the volume of cremains, is too small to account for c250,000 at Sobibor.

The evidence is circumstantial but it's obviously the only possible explanation for why we see a few hundred (at most several thousand) corpses' worth of remains at camps like Sobibor, rather than a quarter million.

Best of luck "explaining away" the obvious. Neutral minds won't buy it.

A neutral would see that you are cherry-picking circumstantial evidence, to produce the weakest case possible. It is also a unique to you claim, that the dead from the ghettos were transported to the AR camps. You have made it up, ad hoc, to try and explain the remains found at the camp. A neutral would see that there is evidence of mass transports of the living, being taken to the camp, though not all were still alive when they arrived. None of the eyewitnesses support your claim.

[Callafangers]

https://www.jewishnews.co.uk/archaeolog ... ten-world/

"An estimated 50,000 Jews who lie there have no stones at all — they were killed by hunger, disease or execution under the Nazis and consigned to two deep mass graves."

This explains nothing.

There were reportedly 92,000 Jews who died in the Warsaw ghetto by July 1942. So, where are the other 42,000?

More importantly: how is your '50,000' figure reached? Who was counting?

A neutral would see that you are cherry-picking circumstantial evidence, to produce the weakest case possible. It is also a unique to you claim, that the dead from the ghettos were transported to the AR camps. You have made it up, ad hoc, to try and explain the remains found at the camp. A neutral would see that there is evidence of mass transports of the living, being taken to the camp, though not all were still alive when they arrived. None of the eyewitnesses support your claim.

Nessie, people can count. You have not shown 250,000 corpses at Sobibor -- you have not shown even 25,000. I might concede 2,500 but with certain questions and caveats; as low as 250 seems plausible. There is good reason you are not taking a mathematical approach in this debate. It is transparent.

You fail repeatedly on the numbers. You will continue to do so as the evidence simply works against you.

[Stubble]

Damn Fangers, you're making me look like a softie over here willing to grant a maximum of 5,000 based off of what I haven't seen.

I don't think I can meet you at 250 until the remains are actually quantified, or, a dig at least excavates more sand from the holes.

Based on the area not excavated, and assuming some bodies there, I get 5,000.

For the record, I think Mattogno should update his writings on the camp to reflect better what the digs turned up.

[Callafangers]

Damn Fangers, you're making me look like a softie over here willing to grant a maximum of 5,000 based off of what I haven't seen.

I don't think I can meet you at 250 until the remains are actually quantified, or, a dig at least excavates more sand from the holes.

Based on the area not excavated, and assuming some bodies there, I get 5,000.

For the record, I think Mattogno should update his writings on the camp to reflect better what the digs turned up.

I should clarify that ~250 would be my absolute lower end. I was only saying that I feel someone could argue this figure and I would not be utterly shocked if we somehow determined the actual count at or near this level. It's unlikely but Mazurek emphasizes very scattered remains and all his photos, as Keen points out, reflect minimal remains.

Let's say I'd be equally shocked to find as high as ten thousand at Sobibor as I would be to find just one-hundred there. Like you, I'd wager the actual count is somewhere in the middle. If we were playing The Price Is Right, I'd stand on ~3,500:

PIR.jpg (95.84 KiB) Viewed 105 times

[Nessie]

https://www.jewishnews.co.uk/archaeolog ... ten-world/

"An estimated 50,000 Jews who lie there have no stones at all — they were killed by hunger, disease or execution under the Nazis and consigned to two deep mass graves."

This explains nothing.

There were reportedly 92,000 Jews who died in the Warsaw ghetto by July 1942. So, where are the other 42,000?

More importantly: how is your '50,000' figure reached? Who was counting?

You have the information of the article. According to this article, more corpses are buried in the two mass graves;

https://1943.pl/en/artykul/commemoratio ... -cemetery/

"From the time of the establishment of the Warsaw Ghetto until July 1942, about 92,000 people died or were murdered there. Many of them were buried in an unnamed grave at the Jewish Cemetery on Okopowa Street in Warsaw – one of the largest mass graves in Europe"

During renovations of the Jewish cemetery, more remains are being found, suggesting ad hoc burials were taking place after the uprising.

https://www.worldjewishcongress.org/en/ ... es-honored

"The remains of 11 people believed to be Jews killed during the 1943 Warsaw Ghetto uprising were buried have been in a ceremony. The bones, interred in the Polish capital's Jewish cemetery, were found several weeks ago during the renovation of a building that stood in Warsaw's Jewish ghetto during the Nazi occupation of Poland"

A neutral would see that you are cherry-picking circumstantial evidence, to produce the weakest case possible. It is also a unique to you claim, that the dead from the ghettos were transported to the AR camps. You have made it up, ad hoc, to try and explain the remains found at the camp. A neutral would see that there is evidence of mass transports of the living, being taken to the camp, though not all were still alive when they arrived. None of the eyewitnesses support your claim.

Nessie, people can count. You have not shown 250,000 corpses at Sobibor -- you have not shown even 25,000. I might concede 2,500 but with certain questions and caveats; as low as 250 seems plausible. There is good reason you are not taking a mathematical approach in this debate. It is transparent.

You fail repeatedly on the numbers. You will continue to do so as the evidence simply works against you.

That is just your clearly biased opinion, as you seek to reduce the death toll for the camp, contrary to the evidence as to how the camp was used and run. It is transparent that you seek and fail to revise the history of Sobibor and have been reduced to claiming dead Jews from ghettos were being transported there.

[Callafangers]

You have the information of the article. According to this article, more corpses are buried in the two mass graves;

https://1943.pl/en/artykul/commemoratio ... -cemetery/

"From the time of the establishment of the Warsaw Ghetto until July 1942, about 92,000 people died or were murdered there. Many of them were buried in an unnamed grave at the Jewish Cemetery on Okopowa Street in Warsaw – one of the largest mass graves in Europe"

During renovations of the Jewish cemetery, more remains are being found, suggesting ad hoc burials were taking place after the uprising.

https://www.worldjewishcongress.org/en/ ... es-honored

"The remains of 11 people believed to be Jews killed during the 1943 Warsaw Ghetto uprising were buried have been in a ceremony. The bones, interred in the Polish capital's Jewish cemetery, were found several weeks ago during the renovation of a building that stood in Warsaw's Jewish ghetto during the Nazi occupation of Poland"

This is smoke and mirrors. You are evading the core issue: there are no graves which could contain the corpses of 200,000+ Jews anywhere inside of Sobibor, yet there are apparently graves there which could contain perhaps several hundred to several thousand corpses.

Therefore, unless you can show that all of the Jews who died in the ghettos were being buried inside the ghetto even after deportations began, then all of what you have posted about burials in the ghetto is moot.

You fail repeatedly on the numbers. You will continue to do so as the evidence simply works against you.

That is just your clearly biased opinion, as you seek to reduce the death toll for the camp, contrary to the evidence as to how the camp was used and run. It is transparent that you seek and fail to revise the history of Sobibor and have been reduced to claiming dead Jews from ghettos were being transported there.

Nope, to recap:

• I've shown an interpretation based on the actual reports
• I have presented the descriptive language used for:
  • all of mass graves at Sobibor,
  • all of the archaeologists and
  • all of their published reports
• I provided a reasoned interpretation of what quantities, densities, etc., these descriptions could plausibly entail.
• You have not even attempted to do the same, for obvious reasons.
• If my interpretations were inflated or exaggerated, you would have already pointed out exactly where the exaggeration lies.
• Instead, you panic and retreat with lazy platitudes and slogans.

We're done here.

[Nessie]

You have the information of the article. According to this article, more corpses are buried in the two mass graves;

https://1943.pl/en/artykul/commemoratio ... -cemetery/

"From the time of the establishment of the Warsaw Ghetto until July 1942, about 92,000 people died or were murdered there. Many of them were buried in an unnamed grave at the Jewish Cemetery on Okopowa Street in Warsaw – one of the largest mass graves in Europe"

During renovations of the Jewish cemetery, more remains are being found, suggesting ad hoc burials were taking place after the uprising.

https://www.worldjewishcongress.org/en/ ... es-honored

"The remains of 11 people believed to be Jews killed during the 1943 Warsaw Ghetto uprising were buried have been in a ceremony. The bones, interred in the Polish capital's Jewish cemetery, were found several weeks ago during the renovation of a building that stood in Warsaw's Jewish ghetto during the Nazi occupation of Poland"

This is smoke and mirrors.

No, it is evidence the dead in the Warsaw ghetto were buried there and not transported to TII.

You are evading the core issue: there are no graves which could contain the corpses of 200,000+ Jews anywhere inside of Sobibor, yet there are apparently graves there which could contain perhaps several hundred to several thousand corpses.

That is not true, as the excavations stopped as soon as a significant quantity of remains were found and the large area amongst the trees, was not full excavated.

Therefore, unless you can show that all of the Jews who died in the ghettos were being buried inside the ghetto even after deportations began, then all of what you have posted about burials in the ghetto is moot.

It is up to you to evidence the transportation of corpses from Warsaw. You know you cannot do that, so you shift the burden of proof onto me, to prove they were buried at Warsaw. I have accepted that and shown you evidence!

You fail repeatedly on the numbers. You will continue to do so as the evidence simply works against you.

That is just your clearly biased opinion, as you seek to reduce the death toll for the camp, contrary to the evidence as to how the camp was used and run. It is transparent that you seek and fail to revise the history of Sobibor and have been reduced to claiming dead Jews from ghettos were being transported there.

Nope, to recap:

• I've shown an interpretation based on the actual reports
• I have presented the descriptive language used for:
  • all of mass graves at Sobibor,
  • all of the archaeologists and
  • all of their published reports
• I provided a reasoned interpretation of what quantities, densities, etc., these descriptions could plausibly entail.
• You have not even attempted to do the same, for obvious reasons.
• If my interpretations were inflated or exaggerated, you would have already pointed out exactly where the exaggeration lies.
• Instead, you panic and retreat with lazy platitudes and slogans.

We're done here.

You have cherry-picked where the report discusses empty graves, or small finds of remains, ignoring the rest. You have zero eyewitnesses, documents or other evidence to support your transportation of corpses theory. What ghetto are you claiming sent corpses to Sobibor?

[Callafangers]

No, it is evidence the dead in the Warsaw ghetto were buried there and not transported to TII.

Again, you don't quantify. We know why.

That is not true, as the excavations stopped as soon as a significant quantity of remains were found and the large area amongst the trees, was not full excavated.

Kola's samples did not 'stop'. We have [exaggerated] depth and area mapping via Kola and density approximations (with additional mapping + refinements) via Mazurek.

Pointing out gaps in an understanding is not the same as invalidating it entirely. You're saying, "they didn't excavate 100% of the graves, so we have no idea how many corpses are there!", which is ridiculous.

There is deductive logic and inductive logic. Deductively, you are partly correct -- we cannot know exactly how many remains are underground. Inductively, however, you are dead-wrong -- the land has been reconnoitered and dug extensively and analysis of 'grave' areas has shown a pattern of findings that are described in enough detail by Mazurek (and Kola) to establish a plausible range of corpse remains underground.

Much like the statement:

"There are no green bears."

To prove this deductively, you would have to photograph every single bear on the planet and then categorize them by color, then showing there are zero in the 'green' column. But even without doing this, since we have tested the color of bears around the world repeatedly and they consistently are not green, it is a valid inductive inference/conclusion to say, "there are no green bears."

And Nessie: there are not 250,000 Jews under Sobibor.

It is up to you to evidence the transportation of corpses from Warsaw. You know you cannot do that, so you shift the burden of proof onto me, to prove they were buried at Warsaw. I have accepted that and shown you evidence!

Again, pointing out gaps is not an invalidating rebuttal. How on Earth can you say that I must show the transport of a few thousand corpses, when you cannot even show the transport of hundreds of millions of KG of wood?

We already know that Jews were being transported on these trains. That there were some dead Jews also on board would be trivial and expected.

You have cherry-picked where the report discusses empty graves, or small finds of remains, ignoring the rest.

Nessie, this is simply a lie, which is why you are not providing any quotes from the reports that you claim I missed.

I captured and included 100% of all descriptive language for each and every mass grave at Sobibor. I challenge you to find even a single description I left out (or did not account for) from any grave, any report, any excavation, any archaeologist.

This is a direct challenge, per forum rules: do not dodge. You made your claim (that I've "cherry-picked" rather than a comprehensive presentation) -- now support it.

[Nessie]

No, it is evidence the dead in the Warsaw ghetto were buried there and not transported to TII.

Again, you don't quantify. We know why.

Explain how quoting and linking to articles that give figures and estimations of the number of dead, how many the two main mass graves hold and the finding of more dead, is not quantifying.

That is not true, as the excavations stopped as soon as a significant quantity of remains were found and the large area amongst the trees, was not full excavated.

Kola's samples did not 'stop'. We have [exaggerated] depth and area mapping via Kola and density approximations (with additional mapping + refinements) via Mazurek.

Pointing out gaps in an understanding is not the same as invalidating it entirely. You're saying, "they didn't excavate 100% of the graves, so we have no idea how many corpses are there!", which is ridiculous.

Straw man. I am saying that without a full excavation, it is impossible to quantify how many corpses are buried there. But in any case, since the Nazis cremated and mixed cremains into the ground, they have made quantification nigh on impossible.

There is deductive logic and inductive logic.

Evidence is better. But, you don't have any!

Deductively, you are partly correct -- we cannot know exactly how many remains are underground.

Which was my actual argument, not the straw man version you made up.

Inductively, however, you are dead-wrong -- the land has been reconnoitered and dug extensively and analysis of 'grave' areas has shown a pattern of findings that are described in enough detail by Mazurek (and Kola) to establish a plausible range of corpse remains underground.

Much like the statement:

"There are no green bears."

To prove this deductively, you would have to photograph every single bear on the planet and then categorize them by color, then showing there are zero in the 'green' column. But even without doing this, since we have tested the color of bears around the world repeatedly and they consistently are not green, it is a valid inductive inference/conclusion to say, "there are no green bears."

And Nessie: there are not 250,000 Jews under Sobibor.

In your opinion, as you cherry pick where few remains were found and ignore the areas not fully excavated, because they were found to contain a high proportion of remains, over earth.

It is up to you to evidence the transportation of corpses from Warsaw. You know you cannot do that, so you shift the burden of proof onto me, to prove they were buried at Warsaw. I have accepted that and shown you evidence!

Again, pointing out gaps is not an invalidating rebuttal.

You cannot evidence our claim, is a valid rebuttal.

How on Earth can you say that I must show the transport of a few thousand corpses, when you cannot even show the transport of hundreds of millions of KG of wood?

I dispute that volume of wood was required and have shown evidence wood was ordered from polish wood yards and that prisoners would be sent out to gather it locally. You have zero evidence of corpse transports.

We already know that Jews were being transported on these trains. That there were some dead Jews also on board would be trivial and expected.

They died during the transport, according to the witnesses.

You have cherry-picked where the report discusses empty graves, or small finds of remains, ignoring the rest.

Nessie, this is simply a lie, which is why you are not providing any quotes from the reports that you claim I missed.

https://codohforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=19380#p19380

"Excavation research covered only boundary area of mass graves and only to the extent
specified by the representative of the Chief Rabbi of Poland, Mr. Alex Schwarz; that is to say
they were conducted until buried or unburied human remains were encountered in large
quantities or in situ, i.e. until there were no obvious traces, confirming their grave nature."

I captured and included 100% of all descriptive language for each and every mass grave at Sobibor. I challenge you to find even a single description I left out (or did not account for) from any grave, any report, any excavation, any archaeologist.

This is a direct challenge, per forum rules: do not dodge. You made your claim (that I've "cherry-picked" rather than a comprehensive presentation) -- now support it.

The above quote is clear, excavations stopped once no obvious traces of remains were found, or, when large quantities were found. A photo example is on page 36, where remains were found in the backfill and the excavation stopped. It shows just how much has been left un-excavated and the potential area for a large volume of cremains.

[Callafangers]

Explain how quoting and linking to articles that give figures and estimations of the number of dead, how many the two main mass graves hold and the finding of more dead, is not quantifying.

Nessie: a journalist's article where they simply claim a figure is not quantifying anything meaningfully. It has zero basis in documentation, forensics, or even so much as a claim to a procedure for actual counting of corpses.

Again, more transparent tactics from you. You are well-aware a journalist's opinion based on other claims/opinions is not scientific, not rigorous, not valid.

Pointing out gaps in an understanding is not the same as invalidating it entirely. You're saying, "they didn't excavate 100% of the graves, so we have no idea how many corpses are there!", which is ridiculous.

Straw man. I am saying that without a full excavation, it is impossible to quantify how many corpses are buried there. But in any case, since the Nazis cremated and mixed cremains into the ground, they have made quantification nigh on impossible.

It is rather easy to provide a quantified estimate or range, given the fact that the archaeologists have defined the dimensions (length x width x depth) of the graves and have described the densities of each. These characteristics allow us to interpret what is possible and probable to fit within these graves, and what is not.

There is deductive logic and inductive logic.

Evidence is better. But, you don't have any!

Logic is the methodology to interpret evidence and draw conclusions. Are you really saying that Kola and Mazurek spent years at Sobibor excavating graves including their dimensions and came up with no evidence about graves and their dimensions?

Quick, someone get Mazurek and Kola on the phone! Our very own Nessie knows more than they do!

...you cherry pick where few remains were found and ignore the areas not fully excavated, because they were found to contain a high proportion of remains, over earth.

Nessie: which graves are you claiming have a "high proportion of remains"? The graves are numbered -- specify which grave numbers (e.g. Grave 1) you are referring to and what proportion you would estimate there, based on the description(s) given by Kola/Mazurek.

This is a direct challenge, please do not dodge.

I dispute that volume of wood [100s of KG] was required and have shown evidence wood was ordered from polish wood yards and that prisoners would be sent out to gather it locally. You have zero evidence of corpse transports.

You have shown wood was used to build the camp. You have shown zero evidence of hundreds/thousands of mass deliveries for cremation -- you have not even shown one.

Then again, half of the grave volumes show only unburnt corpse remains, so you're off-the-hook for some of the wood but then screwed on volume.

We already know that Jews were being transported on these trains. That there were some dead Jews also on board would be trivial and expected.

They died during the transport, according to the witnesses.

Ah, so you admit that corpses were arriving at Sobibor as corpses. Would you admit these corpses were cremated? If so, we establish that Jewish corpses are sent to Sobibor for cremation, well-aligned with what I have suggested here.

"Excavation research covered only boundary area of mass graves and only to the extent specified by the representative of the Chief Rabbi of Poland, Mr. Alex Schwarz; that is to say they were conducted until buried or unburied human remains were encountered in large quantities or in situ, i.e. until there were no obvious traces, confirming their grave nature."

Yes, this is a quote I shared, Nessie, in my comprehensive analysis of grave composition, which you have not countered at all. What is important is that we can evaluate the extent which "their grave nature" was confirmed, thanks to Mazurek providing detailed reports explaining what was found in the excavation of each grave, how deep into each the excavation was conducted, and which findings halted further invasion.

The above quote is clear, excavations stopped once no obvious traces of remains were found, or, when large quantities were found. A photo example is on page 36, where remains were found in the backfill and the excavation stopped. It shows just how much has been left un-excavated and the potential area for a large volume of cremains.

Yes, I have gone over each of the instances of reported findings and densities, stoppages, etc. What is important is that there are some major graves where this stoppage was almost non-existent. Grave 1 was excavated at great depth, and it was found that almost no corpse remains are in this grave at all, invalidating Kola's reports here and demonstrating his pattern of exaggeration. This is further reinforced for Grave 2, which only has a smaller 15 x 15 meter core area with minimal cremains overwhelmed by sand. Grave 3/4 turns out to be sand-heavy and only unburnt remains. Other graves (e.g. Grave 5) has only unburnt remains as well, and Grave 6 also consists largely of sand, and Grave 7 is yet another (like Grave 1) that is ruled out entirely as a grave (no corpses at all).

You simply claim -- with absolute-zero evidence -- that there must be corpses somehow in these graves or in some other camp location.

Do you know how stupid this sounds, Nessie? You are forced to pretend you "know" something the chief archaeologists who excavated the site do not. You insist there is hidden corpse density within their grave measurements, or some hidden graves they were too incompetent to find or report on.

This is asinine... and par for the course for Nessie.