Nessie wrote: ↑Sun Nov 30, 2025 12:39 pm
Why dig huge pits, that have been found to contain small quantities of cremated remains, for an economic action? Where is your evidence the dead died from typhus? Why can you not produce any evidence, from people who worked at the camp, or documents, or anything else?
Nessie, we are getting off-track here. If the Jews you claim are 'gassed' are not in these graves, then where are they?
They are buried, mixed in with earth, partially located by excavations, with gathered remains interred in the memorial.
Nessie wrote:You have clearly failed to take into account the quantity of cremated remains inside the memorial dome. Why is that?
Is there a shred of evidence that any excavation took place to fill the 50-meter mound with ashes? Let's recall this was constructed in the Soviet era.
The fact that you have to lean into this monument as your evidence of corpse remains is concerning enough.
"A glass showcase was designed at its front, offering an overview of the victim’s bones. Press articles published in 1965 implied that the victims’ remains collected from within the camp area were placed inside the mound. It was not confirmed by the archaeological research conducted in 2000, although it is certain that the mound’s outline corresponds with the location of the ashes’ burial sites."
Let's be clear: is this your final answer? Are you really suggesting that missing Jews not in the graves historians (and Kola, etc.) said they are in, have actually been in a monument all along? Why didn't Kola, Mazurek, or any other historians account for this in their reports/investigations, then? Do modern historians generally agree with you? How many of the 250,000 Jews are in there, officially? 10%? 80%?
Please clarify.
I have no idea, since clearly the museum is not certain either. It means that there are three locations for ashes, in the memorial, identified in the ground and unidentified in the ground.
So, why is there zero evidence of c250,000 Jews leaving Sobibor, and where they went to? That number of people, needing guarding, transporting, accommodating, feeding & clothing, & being put to work, would leave a lot of evidence. Where is it?
Nessie wrote:They are buried, mixed in with earth, partially located by excavations, with gathered remains interred in the memorial.
Wow, so you're going "all-in", then? Fascinating.
Here's the 'ash mound' up-close:
Sob.jpg (150.83 KiB) Viewed 166 times
It is reportedly 50 meters across (but this includes the 1m thick wall surrounding the mound, so subtracting 2m from the total diameter); this leaves us with a 24m radius. The mound is less than 1m in height on its sides, and perhaps around 5-6m at its very center/peak. Thus, we'll generously average its height to 3m, which assumes a complete fill. To calculate volume:
- Volume formula for a cylinder: V = π r² h
- r = 24 m, so r² = 576 m²
- h = 3 m
- V = π × 576 × 3 = 1728π m³
- V = 5,433.47 m³
Therefore, at the very maximum you have added ~5,500m³ to the total volume of possible corpse remains at Sobibor.
This is subject to reductions, however, as no one claims that the mound is filled purely with crematory ashes as opposed to mostly soil/sand. For example, Roberto Muehlenkamp notes the primacy of "soil" (see ~11:50):
Keep in mind that none of the excavated "graves" show densities of greater than ~30%, even beneath the barren top layers. Even in areas where grave/corpse material was found, it was typically interspersed with gray sand, lime, etc. So conservatively, we'd have to reduce that ~5,500m3 volume to ~1,000m3 to capture "pure" ash+cremains.
To calculate how many corpses could fit in ~1,000m3: given a necessary mixture of wood ashes with any corpse ashes, and given a volume of about 0.008m3 corpse ash per corpse plus 0.135m3 wood ash per corpse (both sourced per Mattogno while assuming just ~400kg wood needed per corpse), this allows about seven (7) corpses per m3 of volume.
Altogether, we have:
1,000m3 × 7 = 7,000 corpses
Let's add this to the ash/cremains volume for the excavated grave areas (Kola, Mazurek), using the effective grave volume calculated in the OP (1,487m3), reduced by another 60% (conservative) to isolate pure corpse/wood ash. This gives us an adjusted volume of ash in the excavated graves of ~600m3:
600m3 × 7 = 4,200 corpses
Therefore, we are now at a reasonable upper-range estimate of total Sobibor corpses, assuming the 'ash mound' actually contains grave contents:
7,000 + 4,200 = 11,200
This is not conjecture, Nessie. There is no rational way to exceed this total by a factor of even two (2), let alone five, ten, or twenty.
Let's also take a moment to consider the implications of thousands of cubic meters of Sobibor grave contents being excavated and moved into a 'mound' during the Soviet era without a shred of documentation reflecting this. How on Earth would you explain this? Weren't the Soviets great at documenting things, especially Jewish Holocaust related? If not, why do you insist they'd document "where Jews went" behind the Iron Curtain?
Fortunately, we have authoritative sources demonstrating conclusively that the mound isn't crematory remains at all. Here is a statement from the designer of the new Sobibor Memorial, making clear that the mound contains zero ashes:
The burial mound, made of soil not containing ashes, distracted attention from the clearing under which sat human remains [...]
He is echoed buy the Majdanek museum's official website (discussing Sobibor; this is the same quote you shared but you disregarded its key statement):
Press articles published in 1965 implied that the victims’ remains collected from within the camp area were placed inside the mound. It was not confirmed by the archaeological research conducted in 2000, although it is certain that the mound’s outline corresponds with the location of the ashes’ burial sites.
Finally, if there was any doubt remaining, it has been documented authoritatively (by Holocaust historian Erik Somers in a 2024 study) that the old 'mound' was indeed zero-percent crematory ashes:
This mausoleum mound was surrounded by a circular stone wall with a radius of 50 metres. At the front was a glass display case containing human ashes, a skull and bones of victims, suggesting that these remains had been collected at the camp. This has never been confirmed, however, and is unlikely. The sinister display case was removed in 1993, reportedly because it was regularly targeted by vandals.7 Exploratory archaeological investigations in 2000 revealed that the ash mound was composed entirely of sand brought in from outside the camp.
To recap, even if we assumed your mound had been the contents of a "grave", it would have perhaps added several thousand corpses, making it a silly excuse for why the excavated graves for 250,000 Jews are nearly empty. Unfortunately for you, it is confirmed and certain this mound did not contain corpse remains at all.
So, we are back to square one: where are the Jews, Nessie? Or are you a revisionist, now?
Forensics lack both graves and chambers—only victors' ink stains history's page.
It's insane that someone had to do "exploratory archaeological investigations" just to determine if the so-called Ash Mound contained any real ashes or not. This means the documentation was so bad that no one could know what the Soviets had done to the site.
Nessie wrote:They are buried, mixed in with earth, partially located by excavations, with gathered remains interred in the memorial.
Wow, so you're going "all-in", then? Fascinating.
Here's the 'ash mound' up-close:
Sob.jpg
It is reportedly 50 meters across (but this includes the 1m thick wall surrounding the mound, so subtracting 2m from the total diameter); this leaves us with a 24m radius. The mound is less than 1m in height on its sides, and perhaps around 5-6m at its very center/peak. Thus, we'll generously average its height to 3m, which assumes a complete fill. To calculate volume:
- Volume formula for a cylinder: V = π r² h
- r = 24 m, so r² = 576 m²
- h = 3 m
- V = π × 576 × 3 = 1728π m³
- V = 5,433.47 m³
The volume of the memorial is 5,433.47m3.
Therefore, at the very maximum you have added ~5,500m³ to the total volume of possible corpse remains at Sobibor.
This is subject to reductions, however, as no one claims that the mound is filled purely with crematory ashes as opposed to mostly soil/sand. For example, Roberto Muehlenkamp notes the primacy of "soil" (see ~11:50):
Keep in mind that none of the excavated "graves" show densities of greater than ~30%, even beneath the barren top layers. Even in areas where grave/corpse material was found, it was typically interspersed with gray sand, lime, etc. So conservatively, we'd have to reduce that ~5,500m3 volume to ~1,000m3 to capture "pure" ash+cremains.
To calculate how many corpses could fit in ~1,000m3: given a necessary mixture of wood ashes with any corpse ashes, and given a volume of about 0.008m3 corpse ash per corpse..
The volume of a cremated corpse is 0.008m3. Divide that into the memorial's volume and you get 679,184. No wonder you need to get very creative, rather than follow Occam's Razor and look for the simplest route to a solution. Irrespective of the use of the memorial to inter cremains, the camp site itself is far larger, and much of it was planted over and it cannot be accessed. Still, photos of the excavations, show areas just as large as the memorial, containing at least traces of remains, that at 0.008m3 per person, would add up to be c250,000.
... plus 0.135m3 wood ash per corpse (both sourced per Mattogno while assuming just ~400kg wood needed per corpse), this allows about seven (7) corpses per m3 of volume.
Altogether, we have:
1,000m3 × 7 = 7,000 corpses
Let's add this to the ash/cremains volume for the excavated grave areas (Kola, Mazurek), using the effective grave volume calculated in the OP (1,487m3), reduced by another 60% (conservative) to isolate pure corpse/wood ash. This gives us an adjusted volume of ash in the excavated graves of ~600m3:
600m3 × 7 = 4,200 corpses
Therefore, we are now at a reasonable upper-range estimate of total Sobibor corpses, assuming the 'ash mound' actually contains grave contents:
7,000 + 4,200 = 11,200
This is not conjecture, Nessie. There is no rational way to exceed this total by a factor of even two (2), let alone five, ten, or twenty.
Let's also take a moment to consider the implications of thousands of cubic meters of Sobibor grave contents being excavated and moved into a 'mound' during the Soviet era without a shred of documentation reflecting this. How on Earth would you explain this? Weren't the Soviets great at documenting things, especially Jewish Holocaust related? If not, why do you insist they'd document "where Jews went" behind the Iron Curtain?
You keep on saying the Soviets. It was the Poles. The Soviets did little to nothing to promote the Holocaust. Stalin never spoke about it. There were no histories or memorials to it, in the Soviet Union. Jews who died, were Soviets murdered by the Nazis, not Jews. It was left to the Poles to research, investigate and memorialise. But you want to pretend it was not them, because even you cannot believe the Poles ran the hoax.
Fortunately, we have authoritative sources demonstrating conclusively that the mound isn't crematory remains at all. Here is a statement from the designer of the new Sobibor Memorial, making clear that the mound contains zero ashes:
The burial mound, made of soil not containing ashes, distracted attention from the clearing under which sat human remains [...]
He is echoed buy the Majdanek museum's official website (discussing Sobibor; this is the same quote you shared but you disregarded its key statement):
Press articles published in 1965 implied that the victims’ remains collected from within the camp area were placed inside the mound. It was not confirmed by the archaeological research conducted in 2000, although it is certain that the mound’s outline corresponds with the location of the ashes’ burial sites.
Finally, if there was any doubt remaining, it has been documented authoritatively (by Holocaust historian Erik Somers in a 2024 study) that the old 'mound' was indeed zero-percent crematory ashes:
This mausoleum mound was surrounded by a circular stone wall with a radius of 50 metres. At the front was a glass display case containing human ashes, a skull and bones of victims, suggesting that these remains had been collected at the camp. This has never been confirmed, however, and is unlikely. The sinister display case was removed in 1993, reportedly because it was regularly targeted by vandals.7 Exploratory archaeological investigations in 2000 revealed that the ash mound was composed entirely of sand brought in from outside the camp.
To recap, even if we assumed your mound had been the contents of a "grave", it would have perhaps added several thousand corpses, making it a silly excuse for why the excavated graves for 250,000 Jews are nearly empty. Unfortunately for you, it is confirmed and certain this mound did not contain corpse remains at all.
So, we are back to square one: where are the Jews, Nessie? Or are you a revisionist, now?
Since you have evidenced the memorial contains little to no cremains, they are still buried in the ground at Sobibor, 0.008m3 per corpse, of which a proportion have been traced and many have not, such was the way the Nazis mixed the cremains back into the ground, after they started to cremate the corpses, instead of burying them.
As a so=called revisionist, you fail to evidence what did happen at Sobibor and where the people transported there went. Instead, you get creative, to deny that so many are buried there. That is what makes you a Holocaust denier, not a revisionist.
Nessie wrote: ↑Mon Dec 01, 2025 8:24 am
The volume of a cremated corpse is 0.008m3. Divide that into the memorial's volume and you get 679,184. No wonder you need to get very creative, rather than follow Occam's Razor and look for the simplest route to a solution. Irrespective of the use of the memorial to inter cremains, the camp site itself is far larger, and much of it was planted over and it cannot be accessed. Still, photos of the excavations, show areas just as large as the memorial, containing at least traces of remains, that at 0.008m3 per person, would add up to be c250,000.
Absolutely childish. A sore loser, I suppose.
If you believe thousands of m3 of graves were at first excavated and then painstakingly gone through to pull out all of the ash while leaving everything else (sand, lime, etc.) behind, and then magically separating the wood ash (vast majority of any/all burnt remains) from corpse ash/remains, then you need to explain how this was done.
Actually don't bother, because even those who believe the 'ash mound' is real (e.g. Muehlenkamp), acknowledge it is mostly soil/sand.
Actually, nevermind completely, because we've now already established the 'ash mound' is a Soviet fake, 100%.
Nessie wrote:You keep on saying the Soviets. It was the Poles. The Soviets did little to nothing to promote the Holocaust. Stalin never spoke about it. There were no histories or memorials to it, in the Soviet Union. Jews who died, were Soviets murdered by the Nazis, not Jews. It was left to the Poles to research, investigate and memorialise. But you want to pretend it was not them, because even you cannot believe the Poles ran the hoax.
This was Soviet-era communist Poland, Nessie. You're straw-grasping and playing word games, here. The bottom-line is that whoever has been allowing the world to interpret the 'ash mound' as being of actual ashes has been lying or omitting critical information, deliberately. This is no casual error.
Nessie wrote:Since you have evidenced the memorial contains little to no cremains, they are still buried in the ground at Sobibor, 0.008m3 per corpse
You cannot even imagine a way to make sense of this which is why you are acting like a child and re-asserting yourself instead of attempting a scholarly breakdown or rebuttal of the evidence-based quantifying I have provided you. Not even ChatGPT would defend your shit-for-brains "0.008m3 per corpse, all where Kola said!" ass-hattery.
Truly embarrassing.
Mazurek and his team did not say, "holy shit, we found LOADS of bone-chips; bucketful after bucketful -- insane!". They said exactly the opposite -- "hey, we found only very minimal, scattered evidence of human remains at all, even exactly where Kola said they would be -- and most of these remains aren't even burnt!".
Deal with it, Nessie. You fail. You always have, just harder now.
Forensics lack both graves and chambers—only victors' ink stains history's page.
This has been the worst ragdolling on Codoh since Nessie's last ragdolling. Painful stuff.
Nessie, why don't you reach out to Dr Terry and ask him to help you save face? This isn't going well for you, and Dr Terry is always a cut above you (no offense)
Nessie wrote: ↑Mon Dec 01, 2025 8:24 am
The volume of a cremated corpse is 0.008m3. Divide that into the memorial's volume and you get 679,184. No wonder you need to get very creative, rather than follow Occam's Razor and look for the simplest route to a solution. Irrespective of the use of the memorial to inter cremains, the camp site itself is far larger, and much of it was planted over and it cannot be accessed. Still, photos of the excavations, show areas just as large as the memorial, containing at least traces of remains, that at 0.008m3 per person, would add up to be c250,000.
Absolutely childish. A sore loser, I suppose.
If you believe thousands of m3 of graves were at first excavated and then painstakingly gone through to pull out all of the ash while leaving everything else (sand, lime, etc.) behind, and then magically separating the wood ash (vast majority of any/all burnt remains) from corpse ash/remains, then you need to explain how this was done.
Actually don't bother, because even those who believe the 'ash mound' is real (e.g. Muehlenkamp), acknowledge it is mostly soil/sand.
Actually, nevermind completely, because we've now already established the 'ash mound' is a Soviet fake, 100%.
You have evidenced it is not made up of much in the way of cremains, recovered from the site. You have not evidenced it was a Soviet fake. As you point out, Mazurek, the Sobibor museum and others, have not been claiming it is full of cremains. Then there is the issue of, it was the Poles, not the Soviets. Poland and the Soviet Union were two different countries.
Nessie wrote:You keep on saying the Soviets. It was the Poles. The Soviets did little to nothing to promote the Holocaust. Stalin never spoke about it. There were no histories or memorials to it, in the Soviet Union. Jews who died, were Soviets murdered by the Nazis, not Jews. It was left to the Poles to research, investigate and memorialise. But you want to pretend it was not them, because even you cannot believe the Poles ran the hoax.
This was Soviet-era communist Poland, Nessie. You're straw-grasping and playing word games, here. The bottom-line is that whoever has been allowing the world to interpret the 'ash mound' as being of actual ashes has been lying or omitting critical information, deliberately. This is no casual error.
The word game is by you, claiming that Poland was Soviet, when it was not. The Baltic countries, Belorussia and Ukraine reverted to being Soviet after the end of the war, Poland remained independent. Relations between the two countries, were often strained, for example, over responsibility for Katyn. The Polish government had to accept Nazi responsibility, when many knew it was the Soviets. In the end it was Poland, and its self liberation from Communism, that played a large part in its end and the dissolution of the Soviet Union.
You just cannot bring yourself to accept that the vast majority of the evidence gathering and promotion of the history of the Holocaust was Polish, as that would mean you would need to believe the Poles hoaxed the world. It is easier for you to imagine it was the Soviets.
Nessie wrote:Since you have evidenced the memorial contains little to no cremains, they are still buried in the ground at Sobibor, 0.008m3 per corpse
You cannot even imagine a way to make sense of this which is why you are acting like a child and re-asserting yourself instead of attempting a scholarly breakdown or rebuttal of the evidence-based quantifying I have provided you. Not even ChatGPT would defend your shit-for-brains "0.008m3 per corpse, all where Kola said!" ass-hattery.
Truly embarrassing.
Mazurek and his team did not say, "holy shit, we found LOADS of bone-chips; bucketful after bucketful -- insane!". They said exactly the opposite -- "hey, we found only very minimal, scattered evidence of human remains at all, even exactly where Kola said they would be -- and most of these remains aren't even burnt!".
He is more professional than that;
"Photo 6 Sobibór, area of the former German-Nazi extermination camp of Jews, the area of the south-eastern
corner of the clearing with the mass Graves, plan oj the object 568 discovered in the spring 2011 and determined
during the current excavation research as a grave no. 18 because of the large amount of burnt human bones
located in the backfill. Photo W. Mazurek"
"Experience from the previous results of the archaeological research has shown that burnt human bones occur
generally to the hight of the eastern fence of Lager III/camp III."
Deal with it, Nessie. You fail. You always have, just harder now.
I have been saying that the excavations found buried cremated remains, and that more had not been found.
"One of the main aims of the excavation research conducted in autumn 2013 was the
verification of the functions of mass graves 3-8 and the reconnoitering the incidence of human
remains dispersed from the mass graves, located on the marginal deposit also beyond their
range. Excavation research covered only boundary area of mass graves and only to the extent
specified by the representative of the Chief Rabbi of Poland, Mr. Alex Schwarz; that is to say
they were conducted until buried or unburied human remains were encountered in large
quantities or in situ, i.e. until there were no obvious traces, confirming their grave nature."
Mazurek dug until cremains were found and then he stopped. You are suggesting that finding the edges of "large quantities" of cremated remains, is somehow hardly finding any cremated remains. I see how the excavations, only cover part of the camp and that it easy had the space for far more cremains to be located;
Any neutral person, whose aim is not to deny, would read the report and understand it provides corroborating archaeological evidence, that proves mass murders took place at Sobibor and that you fail to evidence what did happen and the survival of the majority of people sent there.
Nessie, it is broken down what Mazurek actually said in the first post of this thread. You have evaded dealing with it directly, so now you attempt a general mischaracterization of Mazurek's findings without referring to his team's actual descriptions for any graves. I've provided it all for you (and everyone) here to review in the OP.
Mazurek's team were only required to stop digging if/when they came across large quantities of corpse remains in situ. This didn't happen very often, which is why they had to redraw the boundaries/edges of Kola's original mapping, over and over again.
If you want to challenge what has been provided, you will need to at least take on the largest graves and make some attempt to estimate what is actually there, based on the descriptions provided between Kola/Mazurek. Best of luck.
Forensics lack both graves and chambers—only victors' ink stains history's page.
HansHill wrote: ↑Mon Dec 01, 2025 9:39 am
This has been the worst ragdolling on Codoh since Nessie's last ragdolling. Painful stuff.
Nessie, why don't you reach out to Dr Terry and ask him to help you save face? This isn't going well for you, and Dr Terry is always a cut above you (no offense)
Callafangers argument consists of cherry-picking where Mazurek did not find much or anything in the way of cremated remains and then dishonestly highlighting that, as if it represents the entirety of the ground at Sobibor. He ignores that Mazurek dug to where cremains were located and then he stopped, so as not to disturb those cremains, that he does describe large areas of cremains and that a large part of the site remains unexcavated.
He then fails to acknowledge the evidence of what the camp was used for, contradicts his belief in a lack of buried cremains and that he cannot produce a revised history for its use and what happened to the Jews transported there.
Callafangers wrote: ↑Mon Dec 01, 2025 9:51 am
Nessie, it is broken down what Mazurek actually said in the first post of this thread.
That is you cherry-picking the parts of the report where he discusses not finding any, or large amounts of cremains.
You have evaded dealing with it directly, so now you attempt a general mischaracterization of Mazurek's findings without referring to his team's actual descriptions for any graves. I've provided it all for you (and everyone) here to review in the OP.
I have literally just given you a quote from him, about grave 18 and the large amount of cremains it contains.
Mazurek's team were only required to stop digging if/when they came across large quantities of corpse remains in situ. This didn't happen very often, which is why they had to redraw the boundaries/edges of Kola's original mapping, over and over again.
If you want to challenge what has been provided, you will need to at least take on the largest graves and make some attempt to estimate what is actually there, based on the descriptions provided between Kola/Mazurek. Best of luck.
No, they stopped every time they found any remains, leaving those remains in situ. Photos of the excavations, show that continually, as they dug in areas around the dome memorial and into the trees, they got so far and then stopped, because they had come across remains, either bones or cremains. For example;
"On the eastern edge of the mass grave no.4, for the purpose of documentation of its
profile, a trim at the junction of the object 2403 has been made. The object proved to be
undetermined post-war trim. In the above mentioned grave, at the depth of about 160 cm,
numerous unburnt dark tawny human bones without anatomical order have been encountered.
They were buried with the spotted grey reddish brown sand, in which no burnt human remains
have been found. The presence of the unburnt human remains in this depth indicate their
deposition not only in deeper profundal layers (where they preserved in adiopocere formation)
but also from the depth of about 150 cm (A. Kola 2001)."
The excavation is to the "edge". The excavation is to 160cm and then it stops and there is no movement, or recovery of the remains. He refers to "numerous" bones. What you are doing is then cherry picking where he said "no burnt human remains have been found". A find of bones, that were not burnt, at a depth of 1m 60cm, or 5'2", corresponds with Kola finding decomposed remains in the lower parts of pits he bore hole sampled, which is evidence, not all corpses were exhumed. You need to deal with how that corroborates witness descriptions of exhumation of the mass graves and explain why you cannot evidence, what the Nazis were doing, burying corpses, all around that part of the Sobibor site.
Callafangers wrote: ↑Mon Dec 01, 2025 3:06 am
Let's also take a moment to consider the implications of thousands of cubic meters of Sobibor grave contents being excavated and moved into a 'mound' during the Soviet era without a shred of documentation reflecting this. How on Earth would you explain this? Weren't the Soviets great at documenting things, especially Jewish Holocaust related? If not, why do you insist they'd document "where Jews went" behind the Iron Curtain?
Firstly well said CF, this is such an important take, I want to take a moment to underscore this.
These are the same Soviets who promulgated the absurd 4 million death toll at Auschwitz, the Jew Soap at Nuremberg, the Katyn Frame-Up and countless other outright scams.
What Nessie, Bombsaway and pals have already fallen back to is; oops the bodies aren't where we need them, so show me the documentation of their resettlement. Since we can safely say the Soviets have clearly attempted numerous swindles with little to no documentation, which was bought hook line and sinker by the Holoboys, it is utterly demented that they would now demand the same documentation they are missing, in reverse, for the alt-hype of their survival.
Throw in the known circumstances of Cold War era SU, the totality and impenetrability of the iron curtain, the sheer unlikelihood of geolocating persecuted ethnic groups behind the iron curtain and their ultimate fate (as I have demonstrated ad infinitum with my North Korean defectors analogy) and you begin to see how dishonest and desperate this pivot is.
Callafangers wrote: ↑Mon Dec 01, 2025 9:51 am
Nessie, it is broken down what Mazurek actually said in the first post of this thread.
That is you cherry-picking the parts of the report where he discusses not finding any, or large amounts of cremains.
It's not "cherry-picking" if it is capturing Mazurek's characterization(s) of each respective grave. If you believe there are important instances of "large amounts of cremains" that were not adequately accounted for in the OP, you are welcomed and encouraged to challenge it.
Nessie wrote:I have literally just given you a quote from him, about grave 18 and the large amount of cremains it contains.
Graves 12-20 were of trivial amounts, nothing in the way of "mass graves", thus irrelevant for our purposes (no "mass grave" = no "Holocaust"). Grave 18 had likely just a few corpses at most (e.g. ~3-5) as it was mostly a garbage pit with only its southern edge having any human remains (burnt bones) therein. Per Mazurek (also see the photo in his report):
As mentioned above, the object 568 has been defined in 2011 as a grave no. 18, which was used as a garbage place of the undefined function. From its bacfill came numerous personal items of the victims, which have been collected from two quarters of the object. In the course of screening the contents of the object, at the southern edge of the quarter of are 9a hectare XXV burnt human bones have been uncovered. They define currently the southern range of grave no. 18.
Nessie wrote:
No, they stopped every time they found any remains, leaving those remains in situ. Photos of the excavations, show that continually, as they dug in areas around the dome memorial and into the trees, they got so far and then stopped, because they had come across remains, either bones or cremains. For example;
No, they did not stop immediately at remains, given the Chief Rabbi only required them to stop at large quantities of remains or those in situ. This is explicit. Their goal was to define where the actual graves were at (for determining the forthcoming monument's location). This entailed needing certainty about where actual corpse materials were at in the largest amounts, which means not stopping the entire dig in an area due to a single bone chip or a few. Mazurek and his team are seen constantly digging/sifting through entire areas (redefining Kola's edges/boundaries along the way).
Nessie wrote:"On the eastern edge of the mass grave no.4, for the purpose of documentation of its
profile, a trim at the junction of the object 2403 has been made. The object proved to be
undetermined post-war trim. In the above mentioned grave, at the depth of about 160 cm,
numerous unburnt dark tawny human bones without anatomical order have been encountered.
They were buried with the spotted grey reddish brown sand, in which no burnt human remains
have been found. The presence of the unburnt human remains in this depth indicate their
deposition not only in deeper profundal layers (where they preserved in adiopocere formation)
but also from the depth of about 150 cm (A. Kola 2001)."
The excavation is to the "edge". The excavation is to 160cm and then it stops and there is no movement, or recovery of the remains. He refers to "numerous" bones. What you are doing is then cherry picking where he said "no burnt human remains have been found". A find of bones, that were not burnt, at a depth of 1m 60cm, or 5'2", corresponds with Kola finding decomposed remains in the lower parts of pits he bore hole sampled, which is evidence, not all corpses were exhumed. You need to deal with how that corroborates witness descriptions of exhumation of the mass graves and explain why you cannot evidence, what the Nazis were doing, burying corpses, all around that part of the Sobibor site.
The quoted passage from Mazurek fully supports the original analysis provided as it describes "numerous unburnt dark tawny human bones without anatomical order" scattered in "spotted grey reddish brown sand" with no burnt remains above 1.6 meters, confirming barren tops and sparse, fragmented fill, contrary to Kola's earlier mischaracterizations. This acknowledges Kola's adipocere bottoms (also sparse) and the overall very-low drill hit rate (i.e. incorporating all stratigraphic data and patterns thereof, whereas you appear to be cherry-picking via emphasizing density when graves have in fact been diffuse and patchy/incontiguous).
Forensics lack both graves and chambers—only victors' ink stains history's page.
Callafangers wrote: ↑Mon Dec 01, 2025 9:51 am
Nessie, it is broken down what Mazurek actually said in the first post of this thread.
That is you cherry-picking the parts of the report where he discusses not finding any, or large amounts of cremains.
It's not "cherry-picking" if it is capturing Mazurek's characterization(s) of each respective grave. If you believe there are important instances of "large amounts of cremains" that were not adequately accounted for in the OP, you are welcomed and encouraged to challenge it.
Nessie wrote:I have literally just given you a quote from him, about grave 18 and the large amount of cremains it contains.
Graves 12-20 were of trivial amounts, nothing in the way of "mass graves", thus irrelevant for our purposes (no "mass grave" = no "Holocaust"). Grave 18 had likely just a few corpses at most (e.g. ~3-5) as it was mostly a garbage pit with only its southern edge having any human remains (burnt bones) therein. Per Mazurek:
As mentioned above, the object 568 has been defined in 2011 as a grave no. 18, which was used as a garbage place of the undefined function. From its bacfill came numerous personal items of the victims, which have been collected from two quarters of the object. In the course of screening the contents of the object, at the southern edge of the quarter of are 9a hectare XXV burnt human bones have been uncovered. They define currently the southern range of grave no. 18.
You are highlighting when no remains are found and ignoring the numerous occasions remains are found. Even a rubbish pit, when it is further examined (screening may refer to sifting) cremains are found. Despite the best efforts to leave remains undisturbed, they cannot help but keep on finding at least traces of them.
Nessie wrote:
No, they stopped every time they found any remains, leaving those remains in situ. Photos of the excavations, show that continually, as they dug in areas around the dome memorial and into the trees, they got so far and then stopped, because they had come across remains, either bones or cremains. For example;
No, they did not stop immediately at remains, given the Chief Rabbi only required them to stop at large quantities of remains or those in situ. This is explicit. Their goal was to define where the actual graves were at (for determining the forthcoming monument's location). This entailed needing certainty about where actual corpse materials were at in the largest amounts, which means not stopping the entire dig in an area due to a single bone chip or a few. Mazurek and his team are seen constantly digging/sifting through entire areas (redefining Kola's edges/boundaries along the way).
You have just quoted a section where a rubbish pit is examined and cremains are found. Mazurek, like other archaeologists at the other AR camps, have found a chaotic mix of remains, cremains and rubbish, buried around the areas, where witnesses stated the main burials took place. They cannot but not comes across cremains, such is the mix, but, when it is clear they have found a section that obviosuly contains remains, they stop. Cremains that do get disturbed, during work such as the excavation of the rubbish pit, are reinterred.
Their aim is to check what is where they planned to locate a new memorial, including the Commemoration Wall, so that remains were disturbed as little as possible, and to locate structures, again, avoiding disturbing remains. That means they are purposly leaving remains alone and avoiding where they believe remains to be. Hence, they often report finding no remains/cremains.
Nessie wrote:"On the eastern edge of the mass grave no.4, for the purpose of documentation of its
profile, a trim at the junction of the object 2403 has been made. The object proved to be
undetermined post-war trim. In the above mentioned grave, at the depth of about 160 cm,
numerous unburnt dark tawny human bones without anatomical order have been encountered.
They were buried with the spotted grey reddish brown sand, in which no burnt human remains
have been found. The presence of the unburnt human remains in this depth indicate their
deposition not only in deeper profundal layers (where they preserved in adiopocere formation)
but also from the depth of about 150 cm (A. Kola 2001)."
The excavation is to the "edge". The excavation is to 160cm and then it stops and there is no movement, or recovery of the remains. He refers to "numerous" bones. What you are doing is then cherry picking where he said "no burnt human remains have been found". A find of bones, that were not burnt, at a depth of 1m 60cm, or 5'2", corresponds with Kola finding decomposed remains in the lower parts of pits he bore hole sampled, which is evidence, not all corpses were exhumed. You need to deal with how that corroborates witness descriptions of exhumation of the mass graves and explain why you cannot evidence, what the Nazis were doing, burying corpses, all around that part of the Sobibor site.
The quoted passage from Mazurek fully supports the original analysis provided as it describes "numerous unburnt dark tawny human bones without anatomical order" scattered in "spotted grey reddish brown sand" with no burnt remains above 1.6 meters, confirming barren tops and sparse, fragmented fill, contrary to Kola's earlier mischaracterizations. This acknowledges Kola's adipocere bottoms (also sparse) and the overall very-low drill hit rate (i.e. incorporating all stratigraphic data and patterns thereof, whereas you appear to be cherry-picking via emphasizing density when graves have in fact been patchy and incontiguous).
I am not cherry-picking anything. I am pointing out where you have cherry-picked, by pointing to references of the discovery of cremains and remains, to give a more accurate picture of what was found. I have also pointed to a find that corroborates, where the deeper the remains are, the more likely they are whole bones or decomposed remains, explained by the exhumations not always removing all of the corpses.
Holocaust deniers are called that, because they literally deny the evidence in front of them. In this case, an archaeological report, littered with references to finds of cremated and identifiable human remains, mixed into the ground, over a large part of Sobibor, is being denied as evidence of mass cremations and burials. The archaeologists also found numerous personal effects, from children's name tags, to Jewish religious symbols, to false teeth. Those are items that would travel with people being resettled and to find them buried, is consistent with the evidenced deaths of those people. It is not just the archaeological evidence that is being denied, it is the evidence of 100% of those who worked at the camp, who state that a section of the camp, where gassings took place, had mass graves and was then used for mass cremations. That documents record mass transports arriving, with little evidence of people departing, is also ignored. Mazurek's finds, are consistent with and corroborate the eyewitness, documentary and circumstantial evidence for Sobibor and how it was used.
So anyway, I was able to find multiple preliminary reports as well as a comprehensive site/excavation map of the Mazurek excavations. At this link, the PDFs for all reports (and the map) are at the bottom:
I have captured/summarized all additional findings from these early reports which describe the volume or density of each of the major graves (1-7 and 8/15) as well as some 'objects' which were considered graves in latter reports:
1-3.jpg (490.41 KiB) Viewed 47 times
4-7.jpg (265.04 KiB) Viewed 47 times
8-X.jpg (397.53 KiB) Viewed 47 times
Below, I have carefully reviewed the language from all reports and attempted to construct a comprehensive "heat map" of all corpse remains at Sobibor (for major graves 1-7 and 8/15). This is obviously limited by the descriptions in the reports (hence, speculative insofar as exact placement of color-shading) but I made every effort to adhere to the necessary linguistic constraints, even conservatively, while plotting "via proxy" to at least capture the general directions and proportions which Mazurek indicates or seems to imply. Unburnt and burnt remains are not differentiated here (hence, if using this to visually estimate cremated corpse remains, the map should be even "cooler" than shown, due to volume constraints; note that Grave 5 is entirely unburnt remains, despite shown as mostly orange-red and yellow):
Graves1-8d.jpg (349.15 KiB) Viewed 16 times
You will notice that in each grave (under any color-shading which I added), there is a darker-gray shaded area(s) surrounded by a lighter-gray shaded area. The darker gray area is originally derived from Kola's attempt at mapping, subsequently shrunk by Mazurek. Basically, the darker area means (or is supposed to mean) "cremation grave" and the lighter shade is to mean "cremation fill". The difference appears more or less arbitrary as the "grave" area is simply what Mazurek "chopped down" Kola's original mapping into. Upon reading Mazurek's report however, you find that the corpse density inside the "grave" portion is often just as sparse as the "fill" portion.
For reference, here is Kola's map:
Kola 2012 Mapping.jpg (105.44 KiB) Viewed 43 times
Of course, anyone/everyone is free and encouraged to challenge these estimates. I just wanted to take Mazurek et al's data further than they were willing to go, by at least attempting to quantify (and illustrate, for visual learners) what they have discovered beyond their own mass reduction's to Kola's earlier nonsense.
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EDIT: Keep in mind, the table provided at the top of this post is only showing additional descriptions gathered from the preliminary reports (2011-2013). For those of the final report (2014), also refer to the OP: viewtopic.php?p=19317#p19317
Forensics lack both graves and chambers—only victors' ink stains history's page.
