Wahrheitssucher wrote: ↑Tue Jul 15, 2025 8:20 pm
Have you read this book Hans?
If not I think you should be ashamed to be peddling this stuff as if it is definitive proof.
Yes, I have read the book and I agree with Munro's assessment that the photographs picture a homicidal gas van at Sonderkommando 7a.
Assessment?
Hmmm? Sounds then like its just photos of a van that are open to interpretation.
The context here is a recent book from Cameron Munro publishing 15 new pictures of alleged gas vans, and covered by the HC blog here:
I have still not been able to see copies of these photos (and warheitssucher makes a good point about copyright in the original thread), my question to the board is: has there been any meaningful update on this in the ~6 or so months since?
I haven't seen any new news. This is the book cover for Cameron Munro's book, as seen on the publisher's website and that of The Foundation Memorial to the Murdered Jews of Europe. It describes that the fifteen photos are not of gas vans plural but of a singular gas van.
This is the photo that is now floating around the internet, e.g. on Reddit and X. It appears to be the back of the same truck in the cover photo. There are handdrawn arrows on the photo.
Munro and the publisher also make a lot of use of crude drawings like this one. These were made in the postwar or late in the war for Polish interrogators.
The question that remains to be answered is, what proof has Munro found that this was a gas van? Since there are 18 men standing in the first photo and at least 11 men in the second photo, couldn't the van have been a people carrier? Since he provides numerous photos of similar vehicles, couldn't it be like one of those, like a Kastenaufbau of similar wooden construction that he calls a mobile kitchen truck? Or couldn't it be used for disinfesting clothing or any other mundane purpose?
If Munro's evidence for gassings is still just postwar statements, it's not going to "shut down deniers" like he hopes. But that seems to be what he points to in a passage from his book shown on the publisher's website.
I have also compared and contrasted the evidence assembled from the witness testimonies with the few surviving original documents (originating from: RSHA Amt IID, Gaubschat and the EG) on the construction, technical features, deployment and the mechanical and operational difficulties with the RSHA-built gas vans.
Given Holocaust deniers' focus on the gas vans, the sensitivities of reputable historians on the topic, and as further explanation of the construction and technical fixtures of the gas vans, the endnotes include the relevant direct quotes from witness testimonies and documents as explicit evidential support; they are therefore voluminous and an integral part of the book. The should be fully read in conjunction with the main text. Without the extensive endnotes, it would be impossible for the reader to asses for themselves the veracity of my research on the RSHA-built gas vans and the proof that the fifteen photographs are of a RHSA Series I gas van without having to repeat the work, a somewhat arduous task.
I will say that my impression of Munro is actually quite positive. In his lectures he devotes a great deal of his time to contextualizing the gas van narrative within the relevant world history of euthanasia, eugenics, and disinfestation. He discusses Zyklon in the context of typhus-carrying lice. He says Rudolf Hoess was "a notorious exaggerator" and his "story also doesn't make sense". He admits the popular photo of a Magirus-Deutz truck does not show a gas van. So his approach to history is much more intellectually honest than I am used to seeing.
Apparently, it's a gasoline-powered American Diamond T that the Germans captured in the western campaign.
Then they built a homicidal gas van on the chassis.
So either it's using a lot of custom parts, or using a lot of American parts.
Either way, I hope the book explains how and where the Germans got replacement parts if anything broke down, since they wouldn't get them from the USA due to being at war with America. Or maybe they custom engineered it so parts were interchangeable with the abundant Soviet submarines in the region.
And we'd expect the gas vans to be breaking down all the time. The stationary gas chambers are said to break down often, resulting in hours-long delays or switching from 5-15 minute diesel/gasoline exhaust to 24-hour chlorine, etc.
Another ad hoc design that defies all myths of German efficiency.
(Some questions could be answered by ordering the book, but their website says they're not shipping to the USA right now.)
I have gone through much of this book, will circle back to it at some point. For now:
Munro (and the entire 'gas van evidence') relies heavily upon wartime hearsay, rumor, and inconsistent post-war testimonies from the 1960s, the latter of which were extracted in high-pressure environments and rife with contradictions on technical details, timelines, etc.
Contemporary wartime documents are exceedingly scarce, handled by vindictive post-war authorities and, where of a technical nature allegedly portraying homicidal features, are just as compatible with disinfestation purposes.
Munro continues the 21st century historiographical tradition of casting a wide net for wartime rumors of any allegation ('gas vans', in this case), disregarding absurdities or inconsistencies along the way, and assuming all post-war investigations and 'confessions' were sincere fact-finding efforts -- accepting statements and conclusions more or less at face value. With any 'convergence' between these elements, Munro interprets 'proof' as established.
Conveniently, of the fifteen photos of alleged 'gas vans' which Munro introduces in his book, there is not a single one which shows the front half of the driver's side -- the precise location where Munro insists we should be able to see the engine exhaust piped directly into the Kastenaufbau. There appear to be photos of every angle of the 'vans' except this one.
Munro points to a few fuzzy images of what he claims are fingernail scratches on the metallic interior of a van admittedly being used at that time for transport (of furniture, etc.). Not only are the scratches hardly perceptible, but Munro apparently gives no consideration to the fact that heavy items like furniture or war materials can also scratch walls during transport.
At most, Munro demonstrates that the vans for which wartime rumors about 'gassing' were being alleged frequently included the vans operated by Sonderkommando VIIa (SK VIIa). But what this tells us primarily is simply that SK VIIa operated a large van, possibly used for delousing and documented (per Munro's own photograph) as also being used for transport.
It is plausible that some of the rumored observations about these vehicles (during or post-war) could have originated from their use in transporting corpses and/or in delousing various materials (furniture, corpses, etc.). It is near-certain that non-incriminating services of this kind were needed on many occasions by SK VIIa and other units.
Munro dedicates part of his book to showing what he considers the roots or epistemology of 'gas vans' and includes just a few examples such as mobile stations used for testing of gas masks and a mobile gas chamber for euthanizing stray dogs. Strangely, Munro totally omits any discussion of mobile delousing chambers which were well-known and documented as having been deployed by Germany and much needed in eastern Europe at that time (see Alvarez's "The Gas Vans", 2023).
Munro makes much ado about slits or peepholes on the rear door(s) of the Kastenaufbau, apparently not aware that stationery delousing chambers are also known to have peepholes.
Munro also makes much ado about particular features of the alleged 'gas vans', including about their lack of windows, their zinc galvanized concave roof, etc., all while disregarding the fact that pre-war Gaubschat models of furniture and transport vans showed very similar features (see Munro, p. 73, 74, 76, 89)
None of Munro's photos show any direct connection between mass executions and the vans.
Overwhelmingly, the 'gas vans' appear as yet another narrative that was -- like many others which circulated originally as rumors -- attempted as a core thematic element in the postwar trials but which were ultimately abandoned in postwar historical literature, public consciousness, and media (e.g. Hollywood) for almost a century (Munro's book is the first-ever orthodox 'Holocaust' literature piece on the alleged 'gas vans'), likely due to common sense objections to this narrative's impracticalities and stark resemblance to atrocity lies.
Munro has indicated that he has other records gathered and compiled about the 'gas vans' which he has thus far withheld in his current book. He has committed to writing another book in the years ahead which will cover more of these sources which he deems relevant. I would imagine certain revisionist scholars/authors could be giving Munro the opportunity to finish his current series before responding in-depth.
...he cries out in pain and proceeds to AI-slop-spam and 'pilpul' you...
.
I didn’t find the video on youtube [below] by the author, very convincing:
• he talks with emotional hyperbole of “the horrific deaths of the victims”.
• he admits the book has been produced to combat two books on the previously rumoured-but-unproven, alleged gas-vans. So it is an admitted attempt to refute the research published by people whom he dismisses with ad hominem smear-tactics and ‘poisoning-the-well’ fallacious logic as “deniers”. This publication is thus admitted to not be the result of open-ended, impartial, objective research.
• the presentation on the website and on the video is clearly aimed at uncritical, faithful believers to shore up their faith.
• it is a publication advertised by (so presumably sponsored by) a transparently unobjective, biased and anti-German ‘Jewish Memorial’ indoctrination foundation:
“On June 25, 1999 after many years of debating the German Bundestag passed a majoritarian and cross-party resolution to build the Memorial to the Murdered Jews of Europe. For the implementation of the resolution, the planning and realisation of the Field of Stelae and the Information Centre, the Foundation Memorial to the Murdered Jews of Europe, a foundation under public law, was established with effect from April 6, 2000.
Between April 2003 and May 2005 the Foundation was in charge of the building project for the Memorial and is now responsible for the running of the Memorial as a place of remembrance, information and encounter. According to the Foundation Act, it is also obligated to »ensure that all victims of National Socialism are remembered and honoured appropriately« as well as to point out the »authentic sites of remembrance«
And then this quote below — visible on the page shown in a photograph of the book on the website — demonstrates it appears to be the same weak and discredited combination of:
i.) confirmation-biased conjecture and assumption; plus
ii.) eye-witness/lie-witness testimony.
QUOTE:
“Unfortunately; the fifteen photographs of the RSHA Series I gas van do not show a perspective of the inside floor of the RSHA-built gas van, nor the left-hand driver's side of the gas van, where the mechanism for feeding the gas from the exhaust pipe into the interior of the gas van was located. To visualise these features and for general case of understanding of the technical features of the RSHA-built gas van, I have prepared three drawings of the RSHA Series gas van with Diamond-T chassis) assigned to SK VIIa.
The drawings, which are included in this book, depict the left-hand driver's side of the gas van, the inside floor of the gas van and the mechanism for directing the exhaust gas into the gas van. They are drawn to an approximate scale based on: the fifteen photographs of the RSHA Series 1 gas van assigned to SK VIIa, and witness testimonies and surviving documentation relating to the RSHA-built gas vans.
They are not technical drawings and should be viewed in conjunction with reading the main text card, most importantly, the relevant endnotes to understand the assumptions underpinning them.
The above is NOT how anyone goes about producing genuine historical research. This book appears to be relying on the same old, ‘evidence-weak but emotively-strong’ approach to evidence assessment. Plus how many people are going to buy it? So how do ordinary people get to judge its contents?
Compare with the approach of Holocaust Handbooks which provides ALL their research for open scrutiny via free e-books.
As for the reference to trials in Dortmund (where I used to live as a teenager), we should all know that the post-war trials were hopelessly flawed parodies of justice. Consequently, arguing that because these photos of vans were used in post-war trial, proves NOTHING.
Without presenting verifiable court transcripts, this may well be similar to arguing that employees of the Hamburg distributorship Tesch & Stabenow (TESTA), (who were convicted in military courts in Hamburg in March 1946) prove homicidal gas chambers.
The owner of the firm Bruno Tesch, and his coworker Karl Weinbacher were charged with having knowingly supplied Zyklon B to murder jews in camps. But there is actually ZERO evidence that Weinbacher and Tesch knowingly supplying Zyklon B to murder human beings.
And yet despite that absence, they were convicted anyway, condemned to death and hung in the Hameln penitentiary on May 16, 1946.
I haven’t seen nor read this book. Just the advertising/marketing selling it. So… Thanks to Callafangers for his in-depth assessment.
It appears that this book and the ‘research’ it is peddling, is the equivalent of printing photos of tins of ZyklonB and giving an emotive speech outside the pesticide factory while claiming this is proof of Bruno Tesch and Karl Weinbacher’s guilt in participating in genocide.
A ‘holocaust’ believer’s problem is not technical, factual, empirical or archeological — their problem is psychological.
Callafangers wrote: ↑Wed Nov 05, 2025 2:35 am
For now:
Thanks CF, so nothingburger.
Munro has indicated that he has other records gathered and compiled about the 'gas vans' which he has thus far withheld in his current book. He has committed to writing another book in the years ahead which will cover more of these sources which he deems relevant. I would imagine certain revisionist scholars/authors could be giving Munro the opportunity to finish his current series before responding in-depth.
This will be interesting if anything more substantial comes to light, but I'm not holding my breath.
The encyclopedia entry for Bronislaw Falborsk as shared by Wetzelrad likewise does not instill confidence, especially the part about 50 jews tumbling out the back part way through a gassing.
In at least five issues of the German news magazine Der Spiegel a photo was reproduced alongside articles which dealt with trials involving alleged murders in so-called "gas vans," which were supposedly committed during the Second World War by German units in Serbia, Poland and in German-occupied parts of the Soviet Union. The photos depict the rear view of a truck with a huge red cross sign painted on the rear door. See the reproductions in the illustrations to the right. No source has been given for this photo, which caused revisionist authors in the past to doubt the authenticity of this image.[1]
In a recent video, Jewish-American revisionist David Cole revealed that the Simon Wiesenthal Center's "Museum of Tolerance" in Los Angeles used to show an allegedly authentic documentary film depicting the gassing of several children in a "Nazi gas van." David Cole found out that the scene shown by the museum had been taken from the 1961 Polish fiction movie "Ambulans" directed by Polish-Jewish filmmaker Janusz Morgenstern.[2] David Cole managed to have the Simon Wiesenthal Center remove this fake "documentary" by instigating Janusz Morgenstern to confront the Center for this obvious copyright violation.
If you move the video to 8 min 48 seconds, you'll see exactly the picture used by Der Spiegel to illustrate its various articles, see below. The van's number plate can be seen at 8 min 43 seconds: "SS 132661," just like in the Spiegel illustrations.
Case closed.
[1] Pierre Marais, Les camions à gas en question, Polémique, Paris 1994; Santiago Alvarez, The Gas Vans, The Barnes Review, Washington DC, 2011, pp. 35, 279; Klaus Schwensen, "The Three Photographs of an Alleged Gas Van," Inconvenient History, 5(1) (2013)
[2] https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambulans_(film_1961)
Munro has a new video up presenting some of the photographs along with a 3D rendering of the van.
I have no additional comment except this: at 08:25 he says gas was distributed through a "U-shaped pipe system" inside the van. According to his visual, the pipe went most of the way around the walls of the room, ending in two spots nearer to the back of the van. I can't imagine any reason for these distribution pipes. Wouldn't the gas have the same effect if the pipe ended instantly where it entered? This seems like something that a witness who knows nothing about gas might invent.
This is also reminiscent of the (real) pipe system at Majdanek chamber III, which also follows the outer wall for unknown reasons. Whether that coincidence should be taken as support or contradiction, I'm not sure. In this (virtual) case the pipes are at least hidden under some floor grates, so the victims couldn't easily pull them off the wall.
The gas-van atrocity story was just a mixture of the gas-chamber atrocity story from the First World War (rehashed propaganda) and the delousing "special purpose vehicles" used by the Germans to combat typhus on the Eastern Front during the Second World War (epidemic deaths & sanitary measures).
Wetzelrad wrote: ↑Sun Nov 16, 2025 4:05 am
Munro has a new video up presenting some of the photographs along with a 3D rendering of the van.
Cameron Munro (aka "Ponytail Man") is working hard to cement himself in the annals of history with his works in the area of alleged homicidal 'gas vans' in recent years. His latest video is right in-line with the kind of scholarship I have come to expect from him.
He starts around 2:40 in the video with:
The book includes the first contemporary, verifiable photographs of a gas van used by the Nazis for killing. Twenty of these gas vans based on the same design were responsible for killing between 300 and 350 thousand victims - mainly Jews but also Sinti and Roma, the mentally and physically disabled, civilians, and many others."
Munro describes the photographs he retrieved as being "verifiable". Unfortunately, his methodology for verification is flawed at its core, relying on his subjective interpretation of 'convergences' between a wide-cast net of 'eyewitnesses', Soviet interrogations, West German interrogations and trial defenses. When it comes to physical evidence or any sort of explicit and verifiable wartime documentation, his position falls flat.
Critically, of the ~3,000 of photos from August Vielkind (photographer of Munro's fifteen photographs), none show Jewish people, killings, or homicidal gassing operations of any kind. Munro is forced to zoom into a pixelated door panel and swear he sees 'scratches' there.
Munro includes references and excerpts of 162 postwar testimonies which he emphasizes as valuable due to their diversity, such as originating from 23 distinct units (e.g. RSHA constructors, Einsatzgruppen/Sonderkommandos), with testimony drawn mainly from 1960s West German trials/investigations. But is there really 'diversity', then?
For some important context, consider where the 'gas vans' story first broke into the public consciousness:
The Katyn excavation by Germany and its announcement [as a Soviet crime] to the world took place in mid-April of 1943
Two months later (June 1943), Soviet interrogations of alleged 'Nazi collaborators' (on 'gas vans') in the Soviet Union begin
Krasnodar trial occurs in July 1943 and includes international journalists, building opposition within the Soviet Union and globally against Germany, centered around 'gas vans'
Given its success, it is no surprise the Kharkov trial occurred a few months later (also on 'gas vans'), achieving essentially the same goal but with actual captured Germans on trial
This is circumstantial, sure, but strongly suggests the 'gas vans' hype was a response and counter to the Katyn investigation, continuing the longstanding tradition of Soviet show trials.
Munro doesn't consider the problems with his 'witnesses' arising early on out of anti-German hype making its way throughout eastern territories by this time (e.g. Soviet grooming and curation of 'witnesses'), nor does he seem bothered by the interplay between Soviet narrative manufacturing and, later, the West German prosecutions in steering notions of "technical consistency" via shared files with earlier/concurrent trials.
Is he not aware that the Soviets are known for two very important behaviors?:
Fabricating witnesses out of thin-air (the Katyn report had one-hundred signatures from false witnesses)
Getting confessions from innocent people (show trials - a Soviet specialty)
Being complacent or casual in partnering with such establishments that engage in this kind of activity is no small matter when the question of justice and prioritized truth-seeking is on the line.
Munro doesn't feel it was important to mention these "minor details" in his assessment. No mention that:
The Soviets curated their witnesses on preconception...
They forced their 'confessions'...
The Allies in general then had the "historical" basis to simply take 'judicial notice' and play along with "established facts", e.g. at Nuremberg
The 'pool of evidence' continued growing via judicial historiography
West German trials of the 1960s (in a thoroughly 'denazified' Germany) cited any prior 'findings' as evidence to further establish German continental guilt
As already mentioned in my earlier post, Munro also doesn't mention delousing vans... Nevermind that these are at least the second-most plausible explanation for any observed "gas vans" that witnesses saw driving by. I guess Munro's echo chamber can't be bothered with the question of delousing. Surely, lice and the need for delousing were a very small matter to Germany during this time.
Moving on, from the video:
During the research and writing for the book, we decided to do a 3D reconstruction of the gas van assigned to Sonderkommando VIIA, using the contemporary verifiable photographs of this gas van, together with 12 years of research and the assumptions which are laid out in the book. This allowed us to better understand the technical features and function of the gas van but, probably more importantly, it now allows us to bring into the public domain a 3D reconstruction -- accurate -- which will enable the general public to envisage the gas van and all of its engineering and scientific barbarity.
Imagine the audacity of someone who fails to find any visual evidence of his alleged genocidal features, only to 'ballpark' what he thinks these features probably looked like (based on hearsay), then to make a 3D model of it and present it to the world as some kind of "accurate" depiction.
This is the work of someone selling a presentation, not putting evidence first.
Thankfully, Munro at least hints that the "original verifiable" photos he features in his book don't actually show anything gas-vanny:
Unfortunately the original verifiable photographs of the gas van assigned to Sonderkommando VIIA don't show a view of the driver's side of the gas van...
Nonetheless, he continues on describing and pointing at this alleged genocidal feature:
This is a still from the 3D reconstruction [points to screen]. Here we can see, in white, the manufacturer of the kastenaufbau, the closed box structure, which was [Gaubschat] in Berlin. They marked all of their constructions with their name. Directly underneath this, we can see the Schlauch mechanism, the pipe system that was used to direct exhaust gas from the exhaust pipe underneath the truck into the interior of the kastenaufbau when the van was used for killing. And here we have a close-up of the exact mechanics of the Schlauch.
What he points at here is a metal hose which he and his select witnesses allege acted as a junction where the exhaust gas can be manually rerouted from the tail/exhaust to the kastenaufbau while Jews are inside. This would be the only visible evidence on the exterior of the van which could even potentially count as evidence of genocidal usage... yet it is also the only area of the van (out of fifteen photographs) he has no photo of.
Some of the 'corroboration' Munro points to is a June 1942 telegram from the RSHA regarding a dispatch of 100m of hose included with an "S Wagon" to be sent to the Security Police in Riga. But since the Schlauch mechanism was only some 20cm in length, this would result in some 500-1000 vans' worth of hose, excessive even if assuming very frequent breakdowns (ftn. 547, p. 245):
Given the length of Panzer-Schlauch used in the original design of the Schlauch mechanism was some 20 centimetres in length, the 100 metres dispatched to BdS Riga would suggest the Panzer-Schlauch had to be frequently changed.
Hmm... or, it would suggest the hose was used for delousing (e.g. steam, hot air), exhaust maintenance, or other general purposes.
Throughout the course of this video, Munro exposes himself largely as a storyteller and scare-mongerer. In one instance, he describes the supposed reason for the wooden grates his 'witnesses' claim lie at the bottom of the kastenaufbau interior:
We also see the support system on the floor for the wooden grates. There were also drains on the floor which allowed the urine, the excrement, the sick, the menstrual blood of the victims during the gassing process to flow out from the interior of the gas van.
If there was any reason left to still take Munro as a serious scholar, he just threw it out the window. The notion of "menstrual blood" being a standout feature of the bodily fluids needing to be cleared out in such a situation is so unbelievably stupid and no doubt originating in atrocity propaganda language that I am not even sure what else to say. This is a psychological tactic to increase the perceived "horror" of such a depiction, rather than conveying actual research findings of a legitimate kind. Munro has likely repeated one of his witness' claims, highlighting his utter lack of source criticism.
He continues his pattern of putting presentation before evidence, here:
We also see there was a light. The last picture shows the interior of the gas van as would have been seen by the victims. In this case, the light is on. In many cases, the light wasn't used and it was absolutely pitch black in the interior of the kastenaufbau with the victims inside. This was a gas proof chamber, there was no or little light.
Yes, I am sure that people being vroom-vroomed to death with a gasoline engine are likely to be especially concerned about whether or not a lightbulb was turned on. Again, more emotion-heavy description hardly relevant to questions of what actually happened from a critical perspective.
...he cries out in pain and proceeds to AI-slop-spam and 'pilpul' you...
Eye of Zyclone wrote: ↑Sun Nov 16, 2025 11:39 am
The gas-van atrocity story was just a mixture of the gas-chamber atrocity story from the First World War (rehashed propaganda) and the delousing "special purpose vehicles" used by the Germans to combat typhus on the Eastern Front during the Second World War (epidemic deaths & sanitary measures).
Excellent post, Eye of Zyclone!
As is the next post from Callafangers.
Callafangers wrote: ↑Sun Nov 16, 2025 12:52 pm
… [snip] …As already mentioned in my earlier post, Munro also doesn't mention delousing vans...
… [snip] … Throughout the course of this video, Munro exposes himself largely as a storyteller and scare-mongerer.
… [snip] … If there was any reason left to still take Munro as a serious scholar, he just threw it out the window.
The notion of "menstrual blood" being a standout feature of the bodily fluids needing to be cleared out in such a situation is so unbelievably stupid and no doubt originating in atrocity propaganda language that I am not even sure what else to say.
This is a psychological tactic to increase the perceived "horror" of such a depiction, rather than conveying actual research findings of a legitimate kind. Munro has likely repeated one of his witness' claims, highlighting his utter lack of source criticism.
Excellent analysis!
Respect to both of you.
A ‘holocaust’ believer’s problem is not technical, factual, empirical or archeological — their problem is psychological.
Callafangers wrote: ↑Sun Nov 16, 2025 12:52 pm
As already mentioned in my earlier post, Munro also doesn't mention delousing vans... Nevermind that these are at least the second-most plausible explanation for any observed "gas vans" that witnesses saw driving by. I guess Munro's echo chamber can't be bothered with the question of delousing. Surely, lice and the need for delousing were a very small matter to Germany during this time.
Great post, and this in particular seems like a key point. Disinfection gas vans are the closest comparable thing to homicidal gas vans, and there appear to be at least two actual photographs of them shared above by Eye of Zyklon. If both homicidal and disinfection gas vans existed, then you might expect them to have similar designs, be built by the same people, perhaps even be operated by the same people. It would be pretty unlikely that they wouldn't leverage their knowledge in building and operating disinfection vans to also safely and effectively conduct homicidal gassings (assuming that such occurred). It is also highly likely that at least some of the documents which refer to gas vans actually referred to disinfection gas vans.
Yet Munro doesn't discuss them in his book or in his lectures. I assume this was merely an oversight on his part, but it leaves the viewer with a big gap in knowledge which considerably biases them in favor of his theory.
Although I will add that in this lecture Munro talks about the British using forty gas vans to test gas masks, with a newspaper photo from 1939. This is not as relevant as German vans but still relevant to the question of homicidal purpose. If Munro was dishonest he would exclude stuff like this.
