Jankiel Wiernik

[pilgrimofdark]

Two methods of homicidal gassing, in the same building, at different times. Novel.

And the nonsense converges!

Goldfarb also mentions the use of chlorine lime in the gas chambers, because the motor could only supply gas to two of the ten chambers.

Goldfarb "remembers" Wiernik and his book, but can't remember his first name correctly, calling him Jacob instead of Jankiel. Wiernik never mentions Goldfarb.

So did the Soviets have an early unpublished version of the Treblinka gas/chlorine chamber story from the Warsaw Jewish/Polish underground?

Was A Year in Treblinka a collaborative writing project between subversives in Warsaw and Soviets?

There was a separate opening in the roof for the gas to escape from the chamber. However, when the gas chamber first began operating, it turned out that the motor couldn't supply enough gas to all 10 chambers. It only supplied the first two.

Then, while the engine was being repaired, another, even more painful, method of killing was used. A significant quantity of chlorine lime* was urgently delivered to the building. A certain amount of chlorine lime was left in a wet state in a chamber, which was hermetically sealed. This process of poisoning the people in the chamber was incomparably longer, and therefore more painful. People were kept in cells for 24 hours, and even then, some sometimes remained alive.

* chlorine lime = хлорной извести
Google translates the complete phrase as "bleach" but each individual word as "chlorine" "lime"

By August 1944, there's cross-contamination between the early unpublished manuscript version of Wiernik's work and Goldfarb's interrogation with the Red Army.

How?

[Stubble]

The chlorinated lime comes from Soviet Pravda atrocity stories if I recall correctly. It would have been the Soviet atrocity propaganda influencing the underground, not the other way around me thinks.

[pilgrimofdark]

In TECOAR (p. 821), Mattogno writes this:

Beginning with his 22 September 1944 interrogation, Reder mentioned graves measuring 100 m × 25 m × 15 m, something he notoriously repeated in his subsequent statements. It has remained unnoticed so far that Wiernik had made the same identical statement regarding Treblinka one year earlier:

“The mass grave had 100 m in length, 25 m in width and 15 in depth (100 x 25 x 15 = 37,500 m³).”

- Quoting the handwritten A Year in Treblinka manuscript written in various people's hands (translation on previous page of this thread)

To correct Mattogno slightly, YIT wasn't published until May/June 1944.

So Reder and "the Wiernik Writers Group" both use this exact figure a few months apart.

Then YIT is in Soviet Red Army hands by August when they do their interrogations of Treblinka witnesses. Abram Goldfarb "corroborates" an almost exact telling of the chlorine gassing + hatch that's only in the handwritten account.

There's some unexplained coordination of details here that are repeated by several witnesses in various venues about different camps. Jewish-Polish-Soviet sources and investigations describing an exact detail.

You can't really call this "plagiarism," because they're "plagiarizing" an unpublished manuscript, which shouldn't have been available to future witnesses like Goldfarb.

[Stubble]

Cross pollination. Possible avenues for cross pollination include but are not limited to 'fellow travelers' Wernick was incarcerated with during his prison stint in Russia. Other avenues to look at would be intra agency communications between Zionists, the Polish resistance and the Soviet.

Goldfarb knew what Pravda was saying and so did Wernick.

The 'chlorine' made it into the aether. The Soviet got what they wanted to hear, which confirmed their propaganda.

With regard to the measurements of grave space, that indicates 1 mass grave imposing into the water table. This is problematic regardless of 'corroboration' across 2 witnesses.

As a side note, I'm wondering how the Soviet figured 3,000,000 given the calculus.

[pilgrimofdark]

Goldfarb knew what Pravda was saying and so did Wernick.

The 'chlorine' made it into the aether. The Soviet got what they wanted to hear, which confirmed their propaganda.

Is there a specific article from Pravda mentioning the chlorine gas chamber with roof hatch? I checked the usual sources, but no references.

On the plus side, I found the Pravda "steam chambers" article referenced by Mattogno in TORC (page 115).

No. 103, April 21, 1943, top right article of page 4

According to this book Treblinka: Research, Memories, Documents, this is how the Soviets got a copy of A Year in Treblinka.

One copy of the brochure, published in Polish, found its way to the village of Ceranów [about 12 km / 7.5 miles directly east of T-II]. After its liberation by the Red Army in the summer of 1944, a local resident, Fabisyan, gave it to Soviet investigators investigating Nazi crimes in the Treblinka camps. The translation was completed by Lieutenant Kazachkov by August 15, 1944. Ten days later, the typescript was certified by the records office of the Information Department of the Political Directorate of the 1st Belorussian Front. The document was then forwarded to the military prosecutor's office. On August 29, General Galadzhev, head of the Political Directorate of the 1st Belorussian Front, sent a report (registered on September 2) to A.S. Shcherbakov, head of the Main Political Directorate of the Red Army. In it, he reported on the investigation into the Treblinka camp, where, according to available data, 3 million people were exterminated – "Poles, Jews, French, Bulgarians, and other nationalities."A translation of J. Vernik's brochure was enclosed with the letter. On September 25, 1944, Guards Major of Justice Mazor, Deputy Military Prosecutor of the 65th Army, added a copy of the memoirs to the general file. Judging by the marginal notes, the Extraordinary State Commission for the Establishment and Investigation of German Crimes was most interested in those stories that referenced Katyn and the uprising of August 2, 1943. The memoirs presented did not fit with the general policy—not to single out the extermination of Jews, but to emphasize that the peoples of all Europe were victims of Nazi crimes—and, likely for this reason, they were not published in Russian.

Also, it claims that the first English translation had numerous missing sentences from the Polish, and they're right about that. The Donat translation restores some of them, but not all.

the differences between these versions are not limited to text structure and style (the Polish version is closer to colloquial speech, with more abrupt sentences, while the English translation has given the narrative a more journalistic and coherent tone). They are also semantic: the translators omitted phrases that both added elements of imagery and emotion to the text and provided additional details. The most significant differences, in our opinion, relate to the number of gas chambers and the number of corpses destroyed: the Polish version mentions 3.5 million, which is consistent with the exaggeration of the scale of the killings by the prisoners themselves, while the first English translation omits this figure altogether. It is worth noting that many such omissions were restored in subsequent translations.

Source

"Those crazy Poles, exaggerating the death toll to 3.5 million! We Soviets are much more reasonable. We know it was 3.0 million."

I'm not sure where any of this research is going, if anywhere.

[Stubble]

Stationary? Na. They talk about the chlorinated lime being thrown in to the cattle cars through the roof vents or being sprinkled on the floor to gas the condemned in transit.

It's not 'verbatim', but, it rhymes.

If you want some Pravda articles covering it I can dig. They are there.

You throw enough at the wall though, and you are bound to get a piece to stick.

Thing is, this is mentioned by Wernick and by Goldfarb only right? So it points to them drinking from the same cup as it were.

With Wernick and Reder, the grave space is hyper specific, again, same cup. Can't be squared with reality though because of the water table there. I'm assuming you've got shuttle water off the Bug damn near as surface. I know from my reading that it wasn't much more than a meter from the surface.

[pilgrimofdark]

Thing is, this is mentioned by Wernick and by Goldfarb only right? So it points to them drinking from the same cup as it were.

With Wernick and Reder, the grave space is hyper specific, again, same cup.

This is almost like trying to find the "Q" source for the New Testament synoptic Gospels.

Were Goldfarb and Reder drinking from the unpublished manuscript Wiernik cup? Or was there another cup all three drank from?

Might be impossible to answer, but the Warsaw circle that included Auerbach, Berman, and the rest is a likely source.

[Stubble]

I can't disagree.

Ultimately, it may be impossible to prove exactly where the cup sat. My current suspicion is intra agency communication and an effort to 'streamline' the atrocity propaganda, ultimately with divergent opinions on how best to do that.

We see that chlorine was dropped in 'A Year in Treblinka' though, and that's something that points at 'streamlining'.

Then again, by the time the trials rolled around the steam chambers had been dropped too. Well, not a Nuremberg, but, you know, they said 'Ze Germans' 'nuked' 20,000 jews at Nuremberg, so...

[pilgrimofdark]

Ultimately, it may be impossible to prove exactly where the cup sat. My current suspension is intra agency communication and an effort to 'streamline' the atrocity propaganda, ultimately with divergent opinions on how best to do that.

Yeah. Warsaw was the headquarters for the Polish communist propaganda operation in the 1930s. It was reprinting materials from across Europe. Wiernik was right in the middle of it.

We know even small partisan bands in WW2 had printing presses for spreading propaganda, and were centrally coordinated by the Soviet Stavka, reinforced to some degree by the annihilation battalions.

NKVD Directive No. 33881/S from December 16, 1941, already stated one purpose would be for the Soviets to record atrocity accounts from areas it recaptured. To what extent did the Red Army reconquer an area, then put centrally-coordinated atrocity propaganda into the mouths of the local Party/Partisan operatives?

How to connect it all together into a coherent narrative? That I'm not sure about.

[Fred Ziffel]

I looked through this thread and did not find it, Here is a wonderful video on Rumble that references Wiernik and the outside burning of bodies at treblinka. The author of the video does a real good job of the burning at Treblinka. Perhaps some out there may not have seen this. The video mentions some of Dean's work

Link:

[Wahrheitssucher]

…Here is a wonderful video on Rumble that references Wiernik and the outside burning of bodies at treblinka.
The author of the video does a real good job of the burning at Treblinka.
Perhaps some out there may not have seen this. The video mentions some of Dean's work

Link:

Brilliant video.
I had never seen it before so thanks for sharing it.

Excellent summarised illustration at the end, also:

[Stubble]

Ultimately, it may be impossible to prove exactly where the cup sat. My current suspension is intra agency communication and an effort to 'streamline' the atrocity propaganda, ultimately with divergent opinions on how best to do that.

Yeah. Warsaw was the headquarters for the Polish communist propaganda operation in the 1930s. It was reprinting materials from across Europe. Wiernik was right in the middle of it.

We know even small partisan bands in WW2 had printing presses for spreading propaganda, and were centrally coordinated by the Soviet Stavka, reinforced to some degree by the annihilation battalions.

NKVD Directive No. 33881/S from December 16, 1941, already stated one purpose would be for the Soviets to record atrocity accounts from areas it recaptured. To what extent did the Red Army reconquer an area, then put centrally-coordinated atrocity propaganda into the mouths of the local Party/Partisan operatives?

How to connect it all together into a coherent narrative? That I'm not sure about.

The overlap with Wernick is patently obvious, with Goldfarb, less so. It struck me this morning that a dive into the ghetto fighters house archives might be warranted to see if Wernick was paying Goldfarb as part of his cell and looking for Goldfarb in the papers of Wernick's handler.

Maybe try to wrap a bow on it that way.

Ultimately I don't think there is a smoking gun laying around, direct evidence of someone saying 'I held the cup' or anything. There might be more tangential stuff though.

[pilgrimofdark]

Broni Teperman also converges on the use of chlorinated lime asphyxiation:

Inside the cabins were pipes from the engine, which carried exhaust gas from the engine into the cabins. The engine was located in the room next to the cabins. I once had the chance to examine this engine, and I clearly remember that it had the inscription "Citroen," a French company. The cabin floors had grooves for blood drainage. If the engine failed, suffocation was carried out with chlorinated lime. I myself saw a jar of chlorinated lime standing near the "bathhouses," and how the chlorinated lime was hoisted in buckets onto the roof of the "bathhouses." In these cases, the bodies of people removed from the cabins were blue. 300-400 people were herded into each cabin. I knew that it was chlorinated lime because I used to take it from that barrel myself to wash my laundry, so that it would be white. The men who removed the bodies from the cabins said that after the people were suffocated with chlorinated lime, the smell of chlorine could be detected in the cabins.

- Broni Teperman's interrogation about the process of extermination of Jews in the Treblinka death camp in 1943. September 26, 1944. Source

Most of his interrogation is him just remembering details he read in the Wiernik Writing Committee's work.

I don't see Broni Teperman referenced elsewhere. He might have also gone under a different name or the translation from Russian isn't quite accurate.