My Very Own Sub-Forum on CODOH!

[Keen]

[Stubble]

Congratulations Keen.

I'll stop by and check in from time to time while you are in 'quarantine'.

Archie's advice in your other post should be taken to heart.

You have a very strong point on your side and that is commendable. You need to be respectful of other posters however and make an effort to keep the signal high and the noise low.

I look forward to seeing your time in quarantine be short and your return to the debate forum be fruitful.

My Best,

Stubble

[Keen]

You need to be respectful of other posters

Respect is something that is earned - same with contempt. Very few people here have earned, or even deserve my respect. But a great many have earned and deserve my contempt.

I look forward to seeing your time in quarantine be short and your return to the debate forum be fruitful.

The CODOH "debate" model is broken and dysfuntional, and I have no great desire to return.

I think I'll be happy here.

You have a very strong point on your side and that is commendable.

It's not just a point, it's the truth.

My Best,

Stubble

Thanks Stubble, my best to you too.

[Stubble]

Perhaps it is time for you to pen a 'Statements of Facts' post for posterity and to inspire robust debate.

You could consolidate your various posts into 1 cogent thread outlining what is known and factually correct about each alleged mass grave by camp.

I'll pop in and help you when I can.

You could also consider penning a pamphlet or even a book outlining the situation in a concise way and exposing the fraud used to prop up the allegation in lieu of evidentiary support.

Of course, the ball is in your court Sir, so do as you will. I simply propose this endeavor as a way to effectively maximize your time in confinement.

[Keen]

Perhaps it is time for you to pen a 'Statements of Facts' post for posterity and to inspire robust debate.

It's at the top of my to do list.

Thanks.

[Callafangers]

Perhaps it is time for you to pen a 'Statements of Facts' post for posterity and to inspire robust debate.

I second this notion. Keen's approach for many years has been to ask questions which imply certain conclusions (done aggressively) but seldom have I seen him state his conclusions directly (which requires defending the position).

A "Statement of Facts" post could help clear the air and give the opportunity for more direct engagement with these conclusions.

[Stubble]

It could also be useful as a cudgel to bonk people over the head with by linking it.

Again, Keen does make a compelling argument with regard to alleged 'huge mass graves'. Namely that these allegations have thus far turned out to be a historical fiction, as no 'huge mass graves' have ever actually been proven.

[Callafangers]

It could also be useful as a cudgel to bonk people over the head with by linking it.

Again, Keen does make a compelling argument with regard to alleged 'huge mass graves'. Namely that these allegations have thus far turned out to be a historical fiction, as no 'huge mass graves' have ever actually been proven.

Very true, I have appreciated Keen's unwavering challenges on that point, although I think some have been fair to point out that there are certain excavations which most researchers (even revisionists) do not dispute having actually taken place (e.g. Kola at Sobibor/Belzec and Judge Lukaszkiewicz at Treblinka), with significant corpse quantities found (even if nowhere near a 'Holocaust'). While others have discussed these excavations directly, with revisionists rightly challenging the scale and nature of findings, Keen has more or less circumvented specific debate of these findings and kept the focus firmly upon qualitative questions about whether findings in general have been 'bona fide, veritable, provable, etc.', which neutral observers may or may not find compelling since it isn't actually measurable (people disagree on what "bona fide", "provable", etc. mean). While it's true that the excavations by Kola, Judge Lukaszkiewicz, and others have been wholly inadequate for the scale of what is claimed at these locations, it seems just as untrue to claim, for example, that only a total of six (6) corpses have ever been unearthed at Treblinka, which is one of the only specific conclusions or inferences I can recall reading from Keen.

I tend to prefer a more balanced approach that makes reasonable concessions, whereas Keen prefers to give away nothing until the forensic investigatory standards of any modern murder investigation are achieved for each and every alleged victim, perhaps. I think the general public (neutral observers) are more likely to be persuaded by a more even-handed approach, but I also have respect for a more critical one which highlights just how far exterminationists actually are from "proving" a Holocaust.

All of that said, Keen, I think the benefit of stating (and defending) your conclusions more directly would be beneficial and potentially more persuasive than the same set of questions on repeat.

[Stubble]

Then I suppose I am under informed Fangers.

Can you direct me to any significant corpse findings by any of the various excavations?

With regard to quantity, unless I am mistaken, we are talking dozens of corpses, not 1,350,000 corpses at the Bug River Camps.

Again, I am absolutely open to correction here if I am in error.

[Keen]

I think some have been fair to point out that there are certain excavations which most researchers (even revisionists) do not dispute having actually taken place (e.g. Kola at Sobibor/Belzec and Judge Lukaszkiewicz at Treblinka), with significant corpse quantities found... While it's true that the excavations by Kola, Judge Lukaszkiewicz, and others have been wholly inadequate for the scale of what is claimed at these locations, it seems just as untrue to claim, for example, that only a total of six (6) corpses have ever been unearthed at Treblinka

A $100.00 reward - is being offered for each one of the 91 alleged graves / cremation pits in question that is proven - with the same standard of proof applied in U. S. civil courts - to actually exist and to currently contain the remains of - at least 2 people.

http://thisisaboutscience.com/

What are you waiting for Callafangers?

Of the 33 alleged Belzec graves / cremation pits in question - the one that you can conclusively prove currently contains the most human remains is number: _?_.

Of the 21 alleged Chelmno graves / cremation pits in question - the one that you can conclusively prove currently contains the most human remains is number: _?_.

Of the 22 alleged Sobibor graves / cremation pits in question - the one that you can conclusively prove currently contains the most human remains is number: _?_.

Of the 15 alleged Treblinka II graves / cremation pits in question - the one that you can conclusively prove currently contains the most human remains is number: _?_.

Of the 91 alleged graves / cremation pits of Belzec, Chelmno, Sobibor and Treblinka II in question - the one that you can conclusively prove currently contains the most human remains is number: _?_.

[Callafangers]

I think some have been fair to point out that there are certain excavations which most researchers (even revisionists) do not dispute having actually taken place (e.g. Kola at Sobibor/Belzec and Judge Lukaszkiewicz at Treblinka), with significant corpse quantities found... While it's true that the excavations by Kola, Judge Lukaszkiewicz, and others have been wholly inadequate for the scale of what is claimed at these locations, it seems just as untrue to claim, for example, that only a total of six (6) corpses have ever been unearthed at Treblinka

A $100.00 reward - is being offered for each one of the 91 alleged graves / cremation pits in question that is proven - with the same standard of proof applied in U. S. civil courts - to actually exist and to currently contain the remains of - at least 2 people.

http://thisisaboutscience.com/

What are you waiting for Callafangers?

It is the "same standard of proof applied in US civil courts" bit that I would reject your challenge upon. This same high standard is not typically what is applied in historical investigations across the world. You are right to point out that such a standard could (and should) have been applied to investigations post-WW2, but the question of whether this must be the case for us to take reported excavations into consideration is another matter.

[Callafangers]

Then I suppose I am under informed Fangers.

Can you direct me to any significant corpse findings by any of the various excavations?

With regard to quantity, unless I am mistaken, we are talking dozens of corpses, not 1,350,000 corpses at the Bug River Camps.

Again, I am absolutely open to correction here if I am in error.

At Sobibor and Belzec, Mattogno estimates corpses at each location in the low thousands or even low tens of thousands. My own estimates are in a similar range. I would concede a maximum of some ~40-50,000 at Sobibor, somewhat less at Belzec. All of this is in perfect alignment with corpses from disease-ridden ghettos (which lacked cremation facilities) and partisan warfare being sent to these camps for disposal along with any confiscated property also being sent for sorting, etc.

As for Treblinka, the count is much lower (I'd estimate in the several hundreds), based almost entirely on Judge Lukaszkiewicz's findings of the single crater (25m x 6m) that exploded corpse material across Nessie's famous "2 hectares" surface area (see the recent "Olympic swimming pools" thread).

[Stubble]

Right, and my own hypothetical calculus puts the numbers at around 25,000 buried at Sobibor for example. With Treblinka II, I'd 'entertain' the idea of 88,000.

The point however is that these are hypotheticals. Mattogno didn't turn a spade and expose any remains.

Given the amount of clean fill in grave 6 at Sobibor I am not inclined to take Kola's findings at face value or to interpret a simple bore study as a conclusive 'prove up'.

Arguments about what is hypothetically there are ultimately intellectual masturbation. We should not give up ground on the issue in my opinion and should most certainly be priming responses to the allegations with the caveat 'even if granted', because the truth is, the 'body count' of bonified confirmed dead and located remains is, dozens not tens of thousands.

[Keen]

It is the "same standard of proof applied in US civil courts" bit that I would reject your challenge upon. This same high standard...

The standard applied in U.S civil courts is the very low preponderance of evidence standard.



Callafangers,

Of the 33 alleged Belzec graves / cremation pits in question - the one that you can conclusively prove currently contains the most human remains is number: _?_.

Of the 21 alleged Chelmno graves / cremation pits in question - the one that you can conclusively prove currently contains the most human remains is number: _?_.

Of the 22 alleged Sobibor graves / cremation pits in question - the one that you can conclusively prove currently contains the most human remains is number: _?_.

Of the 15 alleged Treblinka II graves / cremation pits in question - the one that you can conclusively prove currently contains the most human remains is number: _?_.

Of the 91 alleged graves / cremation pits of Belzec, Chelmno, Sobibor and Treblinka II in question - the one that you can conclusively prove currently contains the most human remains is number: _?_.

What are you waiting for Callafangers?

Let's make this easier for Callafangers:

List all of the Belzec graves / cremation pits in question that you can conclusively prove currently contain the remains of at least 2 human beings: _?_.

List all of the Chelmno graves / cremation pits in question that you can conclusively prove currently contain the remains of at least 2 human beings: _?_.

List all of the Sobibor graves / cremation pits in question that you can conclusively prove currently contain the remains of at least 2 human beings: _?_.

List all of the Treblinka II graves / cremation pits in question that you can conclusively prove currently contain the remains of at least 2 human beings: _?_.

[Callafangers]

I should note that when I say I would concede a maximum of some 40-50k at Sobibor (perhaps 20-30k maximum at Belzec), this is truly my upper maximum, being as charitable as possible in my interpretation of the reported excavations. I would "die on that hill", that there is no possible way to reasonably interpret larger figures than these at either of these camps. That said, I think the actual total there is likely much lower, something like 15-20k at Sobibor, perhaps 5-10k at Belzec, maybe even less. It gets complex because there is the matter of, if the Germans weren't doing anything sneaky/genocidal, there would be no reason to densely pack corpses (i.e. there would be more soil layers between corpses, etc.), which means the findings could even reflect as low as just a few thousand at Sobibor/Belzec, especially given postwar grave-robbing and the like which mixed up the grave contents, inflating the apparent grave volume. But if they were being sneaky/genocidal, packing would have been much more dense. But even with this assumption, it has its limitations. With perfect packing and taking the language of all of the Kola/Lukaszkiewicz/etc reports as referring to extremely high concentrations of ash/corpse material wherever it is reported at all, this achieves my "upper maximum" estimates. But given this is unrealistic, and factoring in practical considerations, I would say that a reasonable maximum in practice at these sites is my mid-range estimates, assuming some 'Holocaust' was attempted at all. But if we take away that element and assume Germans were just cremating for sanitary reasons (no dense packing, cover layers between), we are looking at a couple thousand maximum at Belzec/Sobibor. At Treblinka, there remains just a few hundred regardless.

Stubble, I just noticed your mention of 88,000 at Treblinka. Which reports/studies/excavations are you basing this on? I have found nothing suggesting figures even into the thousands there. I may have missed something, let me know.