Roberto Muehlenkamp's Sobibor bet

[Keen]

Roberto Muehlenkamp:

I, Roberto Muehlenkamp am willing to bet US$ 1,000 (one thousand US Dollars) that I can prove, with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts, that the remains of no less than 25,343 people currently lie within the boundaries of the former Nazi extermination camp at Sobibór.

https://archive.codohforum.com/20230609 ... ml?t=11276

Well Roberta, I'll take that bet under one condition:

You tell us; How many of the 25,343 jews that you allege that you can prove "currently lie within the boundaries of the former Nazi extermination camp at Sobibór" currently lie within the "huge mound of ahses."

After all, you have alleged the following about the "huge mound of ashes:"

It’s not as if the human remains contained in the soil that the "ash mountain" monument was made of had been a spectacular discovery when the monument was built in the 1960s... all known evidence about what happened at Sobibor supports the conclusion that the heap is actually made up of human ashes.

All captioned photos showing this mound of ash, while not necessarily if at all describing it as "huge" or as a "mountain", refer to it as being made up of or containing human ash. Photos of this mound include, without limitation, the photos shown under item IV.2.3 in my post # 777 under http://www.vnnforum.com/showpost.php?p= ... tcount=777 and those shown under the following links:

http://www.sobibor.edu.pl/angielska/gal ... or039.html

http://www.sobibor.edu.pl/angielska/gal ... or040.html

http://www.sobibor.edu.pl/angielska/gal ... or043.html

http://www.sobibor.edu.pl/angielska/gal ... or082.html

The aspect of the substance that the mound consists of, which has a light gray coloration different from the light-brown color of the soil at Sobibor (see photos mentioned in answer B.3 above) suggests the accuracy of captions describing this mound as a mound consisting of or containing human ashes...

The conclusion that the mound in question is comprised of human ash is thus the conclusion that is borne out by all known evidence and belied by none. It is also the conclusion towards which various sources of evidence independent of each other converge. This convergence of various sources of evidence independent of each other, alone or together with the absence of any evidence to the contrary, is proof that the mound in question is comprised of human ash.

The human ashes that the mound at Sobibor is comprised of may have been dug out of one of more of the pits discovered by Prof. Kola in 2001. They were probably brought to the surface by postwar robbery digging, which would mean it is impossible to determine which of the grave pits contained these specific ashes... because it clearly shows what my assumption regarding the origin of the ashes that make up the Sobibor ash mound was: human ashes brought to the surface by postwar robbery digging were collected by the people in charge of the Sobibor memorial site and put together into this ash mound.

https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... chive.html

[Callafangers]

Roberto Muehlenkamp:

I, Roberto Muehlenkamp am willing to bet US$ 1,000 (one thousand US Dollars) that I can prove, with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts, that the remains of no less than 25,343 people currently lie within the boundaries of the former Nazi extermination camp at Sobibór.

25,343? What does this prove, exactly? Do we not presume that there were definitely far above and beyond this number of people dying from typhus, partisan executions and the like whose disease-carrying corpses would have been carried away from ghettos or other locations (most of which lacked cremation facilities) and disposed of at a place like Sobibor?

I recognize that you look at things through an even more critical lens than some of us do, Keen, but I would be willing to fully accept a figure of 25,343 at Sobibor. Hell, I would accept 50,000 or even 70,000. None of these figures come remotely close to aligning with the claims and allegations of a Jewish 'Holocaust'. If we determined conclusively there were only 50,000 corpses at Sobibor, this would be a devastating blow to the 'Holocaust' establishment.

Thus, for Roberto to bet on such a small figure is quite concerning for the 'exterminationist' camp. Why not 250,000? This is the figure most commonly alleged for Sobibor. Is Roberto confident of just 10% of this figure? What was the fate of the other 225,000 Jews that the 'convergence of evidence' says arrived there?

[Stubble]

Ironically, I think his number is accurate for the camp as it is roughly 10% and would have fit in the alleged grave space.

I don't think the cremains are in the mound however. The mound, to me, is lust like the Majdanek UFO. A Soviet atrocity propaganda art installation.

[Keen]

I would be willing to fully accept a figure of 25,343 at Sobibor. Hell, I would accept 50,000 or even 70,000. None of these figures come remotely close to aligning with the claims and allegations of a Jewish 'Holocaust'...

What was the fate of the other 225,000 Jews that the 'convergence of evidence' says arrived there?

If you are willing to accept those figures, then where should we put them:

viewtopic.php?p=16876#p16876

How many should we put in the "well grave"? (#17)

[Keen]

Ironically, I think his number is accurate for the camp as it is roughly 10% and would have fit in the alleged grave space.

If you think the number is accurate, then where should we put them:

viewtopic.php?p=16876#p16876

How many should we put in the "well grave"? (#17)

I don't think the cremains are in the mound however. The mound, to me, is lust like the Majdanek UFO. A Soviet atrocity propaganda art installation.

Well, you never know. Roberta just might have a suprise for us before this is all over.

[Stubble]

You raise a valid point Keen. I'll see if I can get a permit to drop a shovel. If I do, would you be my camera man? If the remains of 25,000+ people exist there, I will have no trouble finding them. Teeth and all.

[Keen]

I would be willing to fully accept a figure of 25,343 at Sobibor.

Ironically, I think his number is accurate for the camp as it is roughly 10% and would have fit in the alleged grave space.

How much is 25,343 divided by 22?

[Keen]

You raise a valid point Keen. I'll see if I can get a permit to drop a shovel. If I do, would you be my camera man? If the remains of 25,000+ people exist there, I will have no trouble finding them. Teeth and all.

I think Robin O'Neil has more experience than me. You know, from filming the Belzec "investigation" and all. And you could maybe ask him to give you a viewing - if he's not too busy still editing the film.

Or maybe you could ask that NOVA film crew. Maybe they would like another crack at it. And you could ask them why they think all their time and effort was disappeared and put down the memory hole.

[Stubble]

I was looking for an honest party though!

I'll see if I can get somebody local. Maybe 'Polska News 5' or some such.

Everybody knows I'm never going to be granted a permit...

[Keen]

Everybody knows I'm never going to be granted a permit...

You don't need a permit, and you don't need to go to Poland to prove that there was no holocaust within the holocaust at Sobibor.

All the work has been done for you. The following rebuttable presumption can be LEGALLY established as fact in a U.S. court:

It is alleged in orthodox historiography that; during WW II, the bodies and burnt remains of hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of jews were buried in numerous “huge mass graves” at Belzec, Chelmno, Sobibor and Treblinka II. However, despite all the deceptive allegations to the contrary, the truth is, the largest (in terms of quantity of remains) of the 91 graves / cremation pits in question that are fraudulently alleged to have been “scientifically proven” to currently exist at these four sites, in which verified human remains have been uncovered / tangibly located via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented archaeology, contained the remains of - ONLY SIX PEOPLE.

http://thisisaboutscience.com/

And we're not done with this yet:

https://codohforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=16876#p16876

And we've got more from the low IQ freak

Roberto Muehlenkamp:

I can prove, with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts, that the remains of no less than 25,343 people currently lie in no less than 12 graves [at Sobibor]

[Keen]

Thus, for Roberto to bet on such a small figure is quite concerning for the 'exterminationist' camp. Why not 250,000?

Because there was no holocaust within the holocaust at Sobibor.

[Keen]

The low IQ freak Roberto / Roberta Muehlenkamp:

I can prove, with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts, that the remains of no less than 25,343 people currently lie in no less than 12 graves [at Sobibor]

As you well know, I stated very precisely what the proof I intend to provide would consist of. It would consist of the following:

1. Providing known evidence of all categories (eyewitness, documentary and physical), which I submit proves that
a certain minimum number of people were
a) deported to,
b) murdered at, and
c) buried and/or cremated at
each of the camps in question.

2. Providing known evidence for the existing possibilities as concerns what happened to the cremation remains, which are the following:
a) They were reburied in emptied mass graves and remained there;
b) They were scattered across nearby fields, woods or roads, or dropped into nearby waters where such was possible and expedient;
c) They were taken out of the camp for some sort of use, e.g. as fertilizer;
d) They (namely the lighter parts, i.e. those most resembling "ashes" in a literal sense, as opposed to bone fragments and whole bones) were blown away from the camp area over the decades by the wind after having been brought to the surface by robbery diggers, where partial excavations were conducted also by such excavations.

3. Assigning equal probability to each of the four possibilities mentioned under items 2 a), b), c) and d) (which is conservative as the evidence suggests that most remains fall under a), i.e. were reburied in emptied mass graves and remained there).

4. Calculating that, pursuant to the assignment of probabilities in mentioned in item 3 above, a quarter of the minimum number of people who were killed at each of the camps in question is the minimum number of people whose remains are currently lying in the soil within the boundaries of each of the former camps.

5. Demonstrating, on hand of the US Federal Rules of Evidence and/or known US judicial precedents, preferably such concerning mass crimes, that a US [criminal] court would, on the basis of the evidence mentioned under items 1 and 2 above and the assignment of probabilities and resulting calculations mentioned under items 3 and 4 above, accept that my numbers are the minimum numbers of murdered persons whose remains can be considered as proven beyond reasonable doubt to currently lie in the soil within the boundaries of each of the former camps.

https://archive.codohforum.com/20230609 ... ml?t=11276

After all of that childish, bombastic drivel, Roberta welched on her bet!



And why did she welch on her bet?

Because this fundamental statement of fact / rebuttable presumption:

It is alleged in orthodox historiography that; during WW II, the bodies and burnt remains of hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of jews were buried in numerous “huge mass graves” at Belzec, Chelmno, Sobibor and Treblinka II. However, despite all the deceptive allegations to the contrary, the truth is, the largest (in terms of quantity of remains) of the 91 graves / cremation pits in question that are fraudulently alleged to have been “scientifically proven” to currently exist at these four sites, in which verified human remains have been uncovered / tangibly located via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented archaeology, contained the remains of - ONLY SIX PEOPLE.

Can be LEGALLY established as fact in a U.S. court.

[Keen]

The cowardly, low IQ freak Roberto / Roberta Muehlenkamp:

I can prove, with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts, that the remains of no less than 25,343 people currently lie in no less than 12 graves [at Sobibor]

Well that begs the question Nessie, which 12 of the alleged 22 are you talking about?

https://codohforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=16876#p16876

[Keen]

Ironically, I think his number is accurate for the camp as it is roughly 10% and would have fit in the alleged grave space.

I don't think the cremains are in the mound however. The mound, to me, is lust like the Majdanek UFO. A Soviet atrocity propaganda art installation.

Ask Roberto / Nessie if Yoram Haimi ever told him that the "ash mound" did not contain human remains.