"56 Olympic Swimming Pools" and Treblinka (Nessie's logic)

[Callafangers]

Worth mentioning also is that Judge L notes multiple other craters in the area, with no mention of any of these having ash/sand contents or being worthy of further excavation as such.

The corpse/ash focus is all about this single (very large) crater, which had ashes/sand within and was exploded atop a 2 hectares surface area.

Other craters had spoons, rags, luggage, etc.

[szlafrok]

I have some acquaintances in my city's water & sewer dept. When they dig a trench of 5 feet deep (1.5m) or more, they use some kind of shoring, trench box etc. At 20 feet deep, they have already reached for the phone and engaged an engineering firm with special equipment - they don't touch it themselves. People have lost their lives in collapses, so they take it seriously. Un-shored holes can be dug, but depending on soil type, the sides must be sloped, or sometimes stepped, to prevent collapse. Near vertical holes are only possible in bedrock. I am skeptical of accounts where the narrators take pains to mention "special" digging equipment, but fail to mention either shoring or sloping which such large holes would require. These narrators are either not good at estimating distances, or else not providing a very detailed account, or perhaps they have made up the figures to fit a 'narrative'. Giving only a length, width, depth and calculating a rectangular prism volume only leads to more questions, like did you measure the bottom of the pit, or the edges, what was the slope, or what system of shoring was employed?

I am also skeptical of the amount of explosives necessary to dig a 7m deep crater. As it happens, we have an example in Toulouse in 2001, 7m deep and 40m wide, resulting from 300 tonnes of ammonium nitrate. That's 661,000 pounds, roughly, about as much fertilizer as would fit in 3 American-railroad hopper cars.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toulouse_ ... _explosion

[Wetzelrad]

The actual crater depth as described is 6 meters, with a short dig there finding nothing beyond 7.5 meters.

Is it possible the depths we are given are offset by the crater wall? Since craters often form walls higher than the surrounding ground, it's easy to imagine that all the depth measurements were made from the top of that elevated wall rather than the original level ground.

[Callafangers]

The actual crater depth as described is 6 meters, with a short dig there finding nothing beyond 7.5 meters.

Is it possible the depths we are given are offset by the crater wall? Since craters often form walls higher than the surrounding ground, it's easy to imagine that all the depth measurements were made from the top of that elevated wall rather than the original level ground.

There's also the question of how much of a non-ash (e.g. soil) layer there was on top of any ash layers. A huge explosion is going to mix the layers, making even modest ash/corpse/sand layer(s) appear more diffuse and uniform throughout the entire depth.

Altogether, it's mind-boggling that Nessie has interpreted this to mean 800,000 corpses/Jews. This could be as few as several hundred corpses, or even less if the ash includes other burnt items.

"56 Olympic sized swimming pools"

[Callafangers]

I have some acquaintances in my city's water & sewer dept. When they dig a trench of 5 feet deep (1.5m) or more, they use some kind of shoring, trench box etc. At 20 feet deep, they have already reached for the phone and engaged an engineering firm with special equipment - they don't touch it themselves. People have lost their lives in collapses, so they take it seriously. Un-shored holes can be dug, but depending on soil type, the sides must be sloped, or sometimes stepped, to prevent collapse. Near vertical holes are only possible in bedrock.

Hi szlafrok, welcome to the forum.

This is actually a very important point when discussing potential grave volume. It's one of the key volume reduction factors which I have actually seen the HC (HolocaustControversies) bloggers admit in the past. It shaves off quite a few cubic meters from the presumed total (e.g. based on 'disturbed soil' and inferences from core sample depth).

[Stubble]

Just going to point out, there are also craters, on the moon.



Coincidence?

[Nessie]

Here are some quotes.

In 1945 at TII, the Poles found 2 hectares up to 7m deep that was a mix of disturbed ground and cremated remains. That is 140,000m3, or the equivalent of 56 Olympic sized swimming pools.

An area of 2 hectares, up to 7m deep, is 140,000m3, or the equivalent to 56 Olympic sized swimming pools. That is of an order that is way larger than any other mass grave site.

What am I supposedly lying about? The Poles recorded an area of 2 hectares, up to 7m deep, of disturbed ground containing cremated human remains. Prove that is a lie.

Lol. I guess Nessie can try to argue that he didn't mean what every reader interpreted him to mean. If so, it was a transparent attempt to prejudice the reader by conflating grave space with bombing damage. Lukaszkiewicz's findings posted above do not support Nessie's insane extrapolation.

Some facts. In 1945, the Poles reported an area of 2 hectares, that they described as disturbed ground containing cremated human remains, inside the the TII camp. Excavations found cremains were buried up to 7m deep. Eyewitnesses reported there had been mass graves in that area, which had been exhumed and the corpses cremated. Eyewitnesses and photos prove excavators were used to dig inside the camp. An aerial photo from 1944 shows rectangular outlines and a large area of disturbed ground. Documents record the arrival of hundreds of thousands of people. Nothing evidences hundreds of thousands left the camp. From 1944 onwards, after the Ukrainian guard fled the site, grave robbers, including Soviet soldiers using explosives, dug up the ground looking for valuables.

Some more facts. So-called revisionists claim that the camp was too small to have held mass graves of hundreds of thousands of corpses and come up with arguments that the pyres cannot have worked. When they try to evidence what happened inside the camp, they fall apart into disagreement, with none able to evidence a convincing history of events. They lie and deny and misrepresent the evidence.

[Nessie]

Nessie is really struggling here. He says (again):

The area, of 2 hectares, is the size of the area in TII, where the witnesses located the main mass graves.

But it looks like he missed a key point in the OP. Here is the only time Judge Lukaszkiewicz mentions "2 hectares":

In the northwestern section of the area, the surface is covered for about 2 hectares by a mixture of ashes and sand.

https://holocausthandbooks.com/wp-conte ... 8-torc.pdf

"In the northwestern section of the area, the surface is covered for about 2 hec-
tares by a mixture of ashes and sand. In this mixture, one finds countless hu-
man bones, often still covered with tissue remains, which are in a condition of
decomposition. During the inspection, which I made with the assistance of an
expert in forensic medicine, it was determined that the ashes are without any
doubt of human origin (remains of cremated human bones). The examination of
human skulls could discover no trace of wounding. At a distance of some 100
m, there is now an unpleasant odor of burning and decay."

Now remember, this gives us the surface area. Nessie combines this with the report about digging under a crater that is within the "2 hectares" just mentioned:

The largest of the craters produced by explosions (numerous fragments attest to the fact that these explosions were set off by bombs), which is at maximum 6 meters deep and has a diameter of about 25 meters – its walls give recognizable evidence of the presence of a large quantity of ashes as well as human remains – was further excavated [...] At a depth of 7.5 meters the bottom was reached, which consisted of layers of unmixed sand. At this point the digging was stopped here.

Thus, we have:

• A massive bomb crater within the 2 hectares
• The center of this crater is the only area that was excavated up to ~7m depth
• This crater had lots of ashes and sand in it

Here's the million-dollar question:

Where did the ashes + sand from the massive exploded crater end up?

Bueller?

Answer: they ended up across the surface of an area 2 hectares across.

Once again:

In the northwestern section of the area, the surface is covered for about 2 hectares by a mixture of ashes and sand.

The "2 hectares" has absolutely nothing to do with what was underneath the surface. It is speaking to the ashes and sand that were blown up across an area of 2 hectares by a single massive bomb large enough to make a 25m x 6m crater.

Why did you miss out the part about decaying cremated human remains?
Where is your evidence that the crater they further excavated, was the only part of the 2 hectare area that contained buried remains?
What about all the eyewitnesses who located mass graves in that area?
What about the 2011 geophysical survey that located 5 pits in that area?

You dishonestly cherry-pick only a small part of the evidence, to reach your suggested conclusion.

[Nessie]

I have some acquaintances in my city's water & sewer dept. When they dig a trench of 5 feet deep (1.5m) or more, they use some kind of shoring, trench box etc. At 20 feet deep, they have already reached for the phone and engaged an engineering firm with special equipment - they don't touch it themselves. People have lost their lives in collapses, so they take it seriously. Un-shored holes can be dug, but depending on soil type, the sides must be sloped, or sometimes stepped, to prevent collapse. Near vertical holes are only possible in bedrock. I am skeptical of accounts where the narrators take pains to mention "special" digging equipment,

No special equipment was mentioned in 1945. Instead;

https://holocausthandbooks.com/wp-conte ... 8-torc.pdf

"Excavations were begun on the grounds using the services of 20 workers who
had been mustered by the village administration for carrying out roadwork."

but fail to mention either shoring or sloping which such large holes would require.

They further excavated craters left by the grave robbers.

"Since a bomb crater 4.5 meters deep is present at the said location – two bombs still lie at a slight
distance from this crater – the digging was begun in this crater"

These narrators are either not good at estimating distances, or else not providing a very detailed account, or perhaps they have made up the figures to fit a 'narrative'. Giving only a length, width, depth and calculating a rectangular prism volume only leads to more questions, like did you measure the bottom of the pit, or the edges, what was the slope, or what system of shoring was employed?

I am also skeptical of the amount of explosives necessary to dig a 7m deep crater. As it happens, we have an example in Toulouse in 2001, 7m deep and 40m wide, resulting from 300 tonnes of ammonium nitrate. That's 661,000 pounds, roughly, about as much fertilizer as would fit in 3 American-railroad hopper cars.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toulouse_ ... _explosion

That depth was reached by digging in an existing crater;

"The largest of the craters produced by explosions – from this emerges numer-
ous pieces of shrapnel –, which is 6 meters deep and has a diameter of about
25 meters, its walls give recognizable evidence of the presence of a large quan-
tity of ashes as well as human remains – was further excavated in order to dis-
cover the depth of the pit in this part of the camp. Numerous human remains
were found by these excavations, still partially in a state of decomposition [w
stanie rozkładu]. The soil consists of ashes interspersed with sand, and is of a
dark-gray color, granular in form. During the excavations, the soil gave off an
intense odor of burning and decay. At a depth of 7.5 meters the bottom was
reached, which consisted of layers of unmixed sand. At this point the digging
was stopped."

I am sceptical of you having done any research into what happened during the 1945 Polish site survey.

[Nessie]

The actual crater depth as described is 6 meters, with a short dig there finding nothing beyond 7.5 meters.

Is it possible the depths we are given are offset by the crater wall? Since craters often form walls higher than the surrounding ground, it's easy to imagine that all the depth measurements were made from the top of that elevated wall rather than the original level ground.

There's also the question of how much of a non-ash (e.g. soil) layer there was on top of any ash layers. A huge explosion is going to mix the layers, making even modest ash/corpse/sand layer(s) appear more diffuse and uniform throughout the entire depth.

Altogether, it's mind-boggling that Nessie has interpreted this to mean 800,000 corpses/Jews. This could be as few as several hundred corpses, or even less if the ash includes other burnt items.

"56 Olympic sized swimming pools"

Documents and eyewitness descriptions provide the evidence from which the death toll is estimated. The huge size of the area inside the camp, that was found to contain cremated human remains, matches the area where eyewitness state the mass graves were located. Geophysics has subsequently identified 5 pits, next to each other, in that area.

All you do is ignore much of the evidence and make the unevidenced assertion only a few hundred corpses are there.

[TlsMS93]

This guy wants us to believe that the authorities dug 7 meters deep into the 2 hectares of surface area of ​​the field. If that had happened, they would have quantified the ashes and determined how many people died there, and they would also have determined the ratio of human ash to wood ash, and this forum would have no reason to exist today, but that's not what they did and they won't do it.

[Nessie]

This guy wants us to believe that the authorities dug 7 meters deep into the 2 hectares of surface area of ​​the field. If that had happened, they would have quantified the ashes and determined how many people died there, and they would also have determined the ratio of human ash to wood ash, and this forum would have no reason to exist today, but that's not what they did and they won't do it.

Why would they have done that? It was an investigating Judge who stated that he lacked resources in his report and that he had to use local workmen to do the excavating. How could they determine how many people had died there, from the mess left by the Nazis and made worse by grave robbers?

What they did establish, which so-called revisionists want to ignore, is that a huge area in the camp, contained buried cremated remains.

[Nessie]

What Mattogno chose to publish, in the book "The Operation Reinhardt Camps" about the 1945 survey led by Judge Lukaszkiewwicz;

https://holocausthandbooks.com/wp-conte ... 8-torc.pdf

"“Protocol of the Tasks Performed on the Grounds of the Death Camp Treblin-
ka, Which Forms the Object of the Judicial Examination.
From November 9 to 13, 1945, the examining magistrate of Siedlce, Z. Łukasz-
kiewicz, together with the state attorney for the District Court of Siedlce, J.
Maciejewski, performed the following tasks on the camp grounds:
1) November 9, 1945
Excavations were begun on the grounds using the services of 20 workers who
had been mustered by the village administration for carrying out roadwork.
The excavations began at the location described by the witness Rajzman on
November 6, where the so-called ‘camp hospital’ had stood and where, ac-
cording to the witness, a mass grave is supposed to exist. Since a bomb crater
4.5 meters deep is present at the said location – two bombs still lie at a slight
distance from this crater – the digging was begun in this crater. In the course
of this work numerous Polish, as well as Russian, German, Austrian, and
Czech coins and broken pieces of various kinds of containers were discovered.
At the end of the work, at approximately 3 pm, at a depth of 6 meters, we en-
countered a layer which had not been reached previously. No human remains
were found.
2) November 10, 1945
The work was continued, with 36 workers who had been commandeered for
roadwork. At a depth of 6 meters begins a layer which has never before been
uncovered by anyone. It consists partly of all sorts of kitchen utensils and dif-
ferent kinds of household objects; there are also pieces of clothing. At a depth
of 7 meters, we reached the bottom of the pit – a layer of yellow sand which is
not mixed with gravel. By additional digging we succeeded in determining the
shape of the pit. It has sloping walls, and the bottom measures about 1.5 meters
[sic!]. The pit was presumably dug out with an excavator. During the course of
the excavations, numerous more-or-less-badly damaged Polish documents
were discovered, in addition the badly damaged personal identity card of a
German Jew, as well as several more coins: Polish, German, Russian, Belgian,
and even American. After we had made certain that this pit, filled with broken
pieces of the containers already mentioned, ran in a north-south direction on
the grounds of the camp area – 2 meters more [in a northerly direction] had
been excavated – the workers started work at this location.
3) November 11, 1945
A series of test excavations was performed at the place where the [gas] cham-
bers had to have been located, in order to find their foundation walls if possi-
ble. Pits 10 – 15 meters in length and 1.5 meters deep were dug, uncovering
undisturbed layers of earth.
The largest of the craters produced by explosions – from this emerges numer-
ous pieces of shrapnel –, which is 6 meters deep and has a diameter of about
25 meters, its walls give recognizable evidence of the presence of a large quan-
tity of ashes as well as human remains – was further excavated in order to dis-
cover the depth of the pit in this part of the camp. Numerous human remains
were found by these excavations, still partially in a state of decomposition [w
stanie rozkładu]. The soil consists of ashes interspersed with sand, and is of a
dark-gray color, granular in form. During the excavations, the soil gave off an
intense odor of burning and decay. At a depth of 7.5 meters the bottom was
reached, which consisted of layers of unmixed sand. At this point the digging
was stopped.
4) November 13, 1945
With the assistance of 30 workers employed for roadwork, the opening of a pit
was begun – a site where refuse was deposited in the northeastern section of
the camp. In this location, as the workers from the nearby hamlets explained, a
very large number of documents had been found so far. Work was begun at this
location, where the people [of that area] had dug a three-meter-deep pit in a
search for gold. During the course of the digging, broken pieces of all sorts of
kitchen containers as well as a large number of rags were found. Aside from
the coins discovered so far, Greek, Slovakian, and French ones were found, as
well as documents in Hebrew and Polish and remnants of a Soviet passport. At
a depth of 5 meters the work was stopped due to the steadily worsening weath-
er conditions.
The Examining Judge The State Attorney
Łukaszkiewicz Maciejewski
Decision:
The Examining Judge of Siedlce, on November 13, 1945, rules in consideration
of the fact that with great probability no mass graves are any longer to be
found on the grounds of the former camp today, as is to be concluded from the
witness testimonies examined so far and from the results of the work carried
out at the site, and in consideration of the oncoming autumn, the present rain-
fall and the necessity of a rapid conclusion of the judicial preliminary investi-
gations, in view of all these facts that work on the territory of the former death
camp Treblinka is to stop.
The Examining Judge
Łukaszkiewicz.”

"With the assistance of an expert surveyor and witnesses, I made an exact in-
spection of the terrain. According to the measurements, the area of the camp is
approximately 13.45 hectares and had the shape of an irregular quadrilateral.
No remnants of facilities of the former death camp exist any longer. The only
things that remain of the structures are: a ditch with remains of burned wooden
poles protruding up, which lead into the cellar, wall bricks from the founda-
tions of the camp’s housekeeping building and the site of the well. Here and
there one finds traces of the burned-out wooden poles of the fence and remains
of barbed wire. There are still a few sections of paved walks. Nonetheless,
there are still other traces that hint at the existence and functions of the camp.
In the northwestern section of the area, the surface is covered for about 2 hec-
tares by a mixture of ashes and sand. In this mixture, one finds countless hu-
man bones, often still covered with tissue remains, which are in a condition of
decomposition. During the inspection, which I made with the assistance of an
expert in forensic medicine, it was determined that the ashes are without any
doubt of human origin (remains of cremated human bones). The examination of
human skulls could discover no trace of wounding. At a distance of some 100
m, there is now an unpleasant odor of burning and decay. In the southwestern
direction, a portion of the camp terrain is covered by aluminum – enamel –
glass and porcelain dishes – kitchen utensils – hand luggage – rucksacks –
pieces of clothing, etc. There are innumerable holes and craters on the proper-
ty.” (Emphases added)
“During the work on the terrain, I found no mass graves, which, in connection
with the statements by the witnesses Romanowski and Wiernik, leads to the
conclusion that nearly all of the bodies of the victims were burned, all the more
so since the camp was liquidated early and the murderers had much time. The
ground of the camp was ploughed and sown. Ukrainians were settled there;
they fled before the arrival of the Red Army (witnesses Kucharek and
Lopuszyński).”

"“Due to the destruction of the graves, it is not possible to count the bodies
which have been there. The medical expert Mieczysław Piotrowski affirms,
however, that one grave of 2 × 1 × 1 m (without taking into consideration the
upper level of earth which covers the bodies) contains at least 6 nude bodies.
Considering the size of all 41 graves, and under the assumption that the levels
of corpses reach only up to 1.5 m in depth (the depth of the graves is up to 3
m), one can calculate that at least 6,500 people were buried there.”

The so-called revisionists will cherry-pick parts of the report and ignore much of it, as it does not fit with their desired beliefs. They will ignore that the 1945 finds, are corroborated by eyewitnesses, an aerial photo and the 2011 survey. They prove that TII had the space, to bury c850,000 corpses.

[Nessie]

Summary of the 2011 survey;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16657363

"The existence of mass graves was known about from witness testimony, but the failure to provide persuasive physical evidence led some to question whether it could really be true that hundreds of thousands of Jews were killed here.
Although they lasted only a few days, those post-war investigations remained the most complete studies of the camp until I began my work at Treblinka in 2010.
This revealed the existence of a number of pits across the site.
Some may be the result of post-war looting, prompted by myths of buried Jewish gold, but several larger pits were recorded in areas suggested by witnesses as the locations of mass graves and cremation sites.
One is 26m long, 17m wide and at least four metres deep, with a ramp at the west end and a vertical edge to the east.
Another five pits of varying sizes and also at least this deep are located nearby. Given their size and location, there is a strong case for arguing that they represent burial areas....
At Treblinka it is clear that the ash contains many bones. Bone fragments can still be seen on the surface of the ground, especially after rain.
Considerable evidence also exists to suggest that not all of the bodies were exhumed and cremated. Photographs show bodies littering the landscape as late as the early 1960s."

[TlsMS93]

26x17x4 and 5 others of varying sizes (smaller because it's not detailed and noteworthy) with the same depth. Are these the more than 50 Olympic swimming pools?

26x17 is generally the size of a common plot of land, only wider and 4 meters deep, which, according to AI, wouldn't even fit 9,000 bodies in there, around 10% of what they claim were killed there.