Treblinka Work Camp Delousing Chamber

[PrudentRegret]

I have looked and you are right, there is no evidence of a delousing chamber at TI. Such a chamber at TII makes sense, to stop the spread of disease with lice in the clothing seized.

So you accept that this budgetary document is referring to a delousing facility at T-II? Does SanityCheck want to concur with that opinion or otherwise explain where the delousing chamber went?

[Callafangers]

I have looked and you are right, there is no evidence of a delousing chamber at TI. Such a chamber at TII makes sense, to stop the spread of disease with lice in the clothing seized.

So you accept that this budgetary document is referring to a delousing facility at T-II? Does Nick Terry want to concur with that opinion or otherwise explain where the delousing chamber went?

Very interesting times in the world of revisionism...

[Archie]

Not sure quite where I'm going with this, but in the traditional Treblinka stories,

"Death House #1" - Building with three chambers, presumably would have to have existed when the camp opened
"Death House #2" - Larger building with 6, 8, or 10 chambers (depending on source), arranged in a 2x(3/4/5) pattern.

DH2 was supposedly constructed from September to October of 1942. This is a little before the date on the document in the OP (Nov 10, 1942). But it might suggest there was some construction going on in the "death camp" area. Wiernik claimed that he was personally involved in the construction of DH2.

Abraham Krzepicki in Eighteen Days in Treblinka describes the "gas chamber" as a bathhouse with tiles, etc. This could be DH1, although it seems he fails to describe the partitioning into three chambers.

But the longish, not too large brick building standing in the middle of the “Death Camp” had a strange fascination for me: this was the gas chamber. Before I left the area, I felt I had to obtain a glimpse of this, the most terrible part of the camp where the sinis­ter crime was perpetrated on the Jews.

I had already come quite close to it several times, when I and others had been carrying water for the lime and clay from the well which stood right next to the building. But it had not occurred to me to leave my group and move a little closer to see. Only as we were returning from our midday meal and our column halted for a while, did I sneak away from them and move toward the open door of the gas chamber.

I think I have already noted that this building was surrounded by a wooded area. Now I noticed that, spread over the flat roof of the building, there was a green wire net whose edges extended slightly beyond the building’s walls. This may have been for protection against air attacks. Beneath the net, on top of the roof, I could see a tangle of pipes.

The walls of the building were covered with concrete. The gas chamber had not been operating for a week. I was able to look inside through one of the two strong whitewashed iron exits which happened to be open.

I saw before me a room which was not too large. It looked like a regular shower room with all the accoutrements of a public bathhouse. The walls of the room were covered with small, white tiles. It was very fine, clean work. The floor was covered with orange terra cotta tiles. Nickel plated metal faucets were set into the ceiling.

That was all. A comfortable, neat little bathhouse set in the mid­dle of a wooded area. There was nothing more to see. But as one stood in front of the entrance to this “bathhouse” one could see hills of lime, and beneath them the giant, still-open mass graves where tens, perhaps hundreds, of thousands of “bathers” lay in eternal rest. Later on, I was told that here, too, they had begun to cremate the bodies in the ditches.

Sturdy-Colls claimed to have found some of these tiles.

More on Krzepicki
https://archive.codohforum.com/20230609 ... f=2&t=9002

From a revisionist perspective, to the extent the descriptions of the "gas chamber" structures were based on anything factual, I would think the most likely explanation would be some sort of bathhouse. And you might expect that there were some facilities for delousing as well as often these functions were connected, as we see with the Bath & Disinfection station at Majdanek.

[TlsMS93]

Not sure quite where I'm going with this, but in the traditional Treblinka stories,

"Death House #1" - Building with three chambers, presumably would have to have existed when the camp opened
"Death House #2" - Larger building with 6, 8, or 10 chambers (depending on source), arranged in a 2x(3/4/5) pattern.

DH2 was supposedly constructed from September to October of 1942. This is a little before the date on the document in the OP (Nov 10, 1942). But it might suggest there was some construction going on in the "death camp" area. Wiernik claimed that he was personally involved in the construction of DH2.

Abraham Krzepicki in Eighteen Days in Treblinka describes the "gas chamber" as a bathhouse with tiles, etc. This could be DH1, although it seems he fails to describe the partitioning into three chambers.

But the longish, not too large brick building standing in the middle of the “Death Camp” had a strange fascination for me: this was the gas chamber. Before I left the area, I felt I had to obtain a glimpse of this, the most terrible part of the camp where the sinis­ter crime was perpetrated on the Jews.

I had already come quite close to it several times, when I and others had been carrying water for the lime and clay from the well which stood right next to the building. But it had not occurred to me to leave my group and move a little closer to see. Only as we were returning from our midday meal and our column halted for a while, did I sneak away from them and move toward the open door of the gas chamber.

I think I have already noted that this building was surrounded by a wooded area. Now I noticed that, spread over the flat roof of the building, there was a green wire net whose edges extended slightly beyond the building’s walls. This may have been for protection against air attacks. Beneath the net, on top of the roof, I could see a tangle of pipes.

The walls of the building were covered with concrete. The gas chamber had not been operating for a week. I was able to look inside through one of the two strong whitewashed iron exits which happened to be open.

I saw before me a room which was not too large. It looked like a regular shower room with all the accoutrements of a public bathhouse. The walls of the room were covered with small, white tiles. It was very fine, clean work. The floor was covered with orange terra cotta tiles. Nickel plated metal faucets were set into the ceiling.

That was all. A comfortable, neat little bathhouse set in the mid­dle of a wooded area. There was nothing more to see. But as one stood in front of the entrance to this “bathhouse” one could see hills of lime, and beneath them the giant, still-open mass graves where tens, perhaps hundreds, of thousands of “bathers” lay in eternal rest. Later on, I was told that here, too, they had begun to cremate the bodies in the ditches.

Sturdy-Colls claimed to have found some of these tiles.

More on Krzepicki
https://archive.codohforum.com/20230609 ... f=2&t=9002

From a revisionist perspective, to the extent the descriptions of the "gas chamber" structures were based on anything factual, I would think the most likely explanation would be some sort of bathhouse. And you might expect that there were some facilities for delousing as well as often these functions were connected, as we see with the Bath & Disinfection station at Majdanek.

In this archaeologist's documentary, they promised to chemically analyze these tiles, what was the result and where did they publish it?

[Nessie]

https://www.holocausthistoricalsociety. ... mbers.html

Quotes from Krzepicki, "The floor was covered with orange terra cotta tiles" and Rosenberg, "The ground (floor) and a half of the wall was covered with red tiles". All the witnesses describe the gas chambers as looking like a bath house. The use of tiles matches that. If you follow the corroborating evidence, rather than what you want to believe, then there is corroborating evidence that the gas chambers were built to look like showers, as part of the deception that was also reported in use at A-B.

[curioussoul]

https://www.holocausthistoricalsociety. ... mbers.html

Quotes from Krzepicki, "The floor was covered with orange terra cotta tiles" and Rosenberg, "The ground (floor) and a half of the wall was covered with red tiles". All the witnesses describe the gas chambers as looking like a bath house. The use of tiles matches that. If you follow the corroborating evidence, rather than what you want to believe, then there is corroborating evidence that the gas chambers were built to look like showers, as part of the deception that was also reported in use at A-B.

It would make little sense for Eberl to confusingly use a 'codeword' shared by an actual camp located next door. Why not refer to it as "Durchgangslager Treblinka" if he was looking for a codeword? That's the word literally used by Himmler to refer to Sobibor, which you people claim was an instance of Himmler using a codeword. And simply asserting that the word "Arbeitslager" is an "obvious" codeword isn't really helping your case here, Nessie.

[Nessie]

https://www.holocausthistoricalsociety. ... mbers.html

Quotes from Krzepicki, "The floor was covered with orange terra cotta tiles" and Rosenberg, "The ground (floor) and a half of the wall was covered with red tiles". All the witnesses describe the gas chambers as looking like a bath house. The use of tiles matches that. If you follow the corroborating evidence, rather than what you want to believe, then there is corroborating evidence that the gas chambers were built to look like showers, as part of the deception that was also reported in use at A-B.

It would make little sense for Eberl to confusingly use a 'codeword' shared by an actual camp located next door.

Eberl worked on AR. He reported only to more senior Nazis who worked on AR. Why would calling TII a labour camp cause confusion within the AR staff, when they only managed a few specific camps? Eberl was not reporting to the same management van Eupen was reporting to. They worked on separate operations under different departments and management.

Why not refer to it as "Durchgangslager Treblinka" if he was looking for a codeword? That's the word literally used by Himmler to refer to Sobibor, which you people claim was an instance of Himmler using a codeword. And simply asserting that the word "Arbeitslager" is an "obvious" codeword isn't really helping your case here, Nessie.

I am not making any assertion. I am stating that, obviously, for reasons of plausible deniability and secrecy, senior Nazis were going to refer to death camps by any name other than, death camp. There is evidence senior Nazis operated a policy of plausible deniability and secrecy for AR.

It does not help the revisionist case they are arguing TII was a transit camp, when it was called a labour camp by its first commander. Why give a transit camp a codeword to hide its true function?

[PrudentRegret]

It does not help the revisionist case they are arguing TII was a transit camp, when it was called a labour camp by its first commander. Why give a transit camp a codeword to hide its true function?

Because "T-II" was not a transit camp it was a labor camp part of Arbeitslager Treblinka just as Eberl named in those documents. The AR labor camp at Trawniki was under Arbeitslager Trawniki and the AR labor camp at Poniatowa was under Arbeitslager Poniatowa.

But Nessie you didn't answer my question, do you accept that this budget refers to a delousing chamber in what you call "T-II" based on your acknowledgment there's no evidence for a delousing chamber in "T-I"?

[Nessie]

It does not help the revisionist case they are arguing TII was a transit camp, when it was called a labour camp by its first commander. Why give a transit camp a codeword to hide its true function?

Because "T-II" was not a transit camp it was a labor camp part of Arbeitslager Treblinka just as Eberl named in those documents. The AR labor camp at Trawniki was under Arbeitslager Trawniki and the AR labor camp at Poniatowa was under Arbeitslager Poniatowa.

Therein lies yours and other revisionists main problem. You cannot evidence, let alone agree upon, what actually happened inside TII. All you have is competing, contradictory theories.

But Nessie you didn't answer my question, do you accept that this budget refers to a delousing chamber in what you call "T-II" based on your acknowledgment there's no evidence for a delousing chamber in "T-I"?

I think it is more likely to be TI because of this;

"The expansion of the Treblinka camp requires the construction of 4 prisoner barracks, 1 kitchen barrack for the prisoners, 1 infirmary and laundry barracks for prisoners, sanitary and laundry facilities for the infirmary and laundry barracks, a storage shed, conversion of the old prisoner barracks into a workshop, water supply, power supply, drainage, delousing chamber and fire extinguishing equipment. (See Appendix. Cost estimate of the Central Construction Office of the Waffen-SS and Police Warsaw dated 10.11.42.)"

What plans of TI now say is a barracks, could have been the "old prisoner barracks" that was converted and the order is not under AR, it is under the Waffen-SS and Police Warsaw.

[PrudentRegret]

So you're back to saying it was at TI even though there are no accounts of a delousing chamber there while there are accounts of such facilities in TII.

I don't know where you get it in your head that AR operations are unable to take place within camps under the jurisdiction of SSPF Warsaw. This is only a constraint you have invented in your mind and it isn't supported by evidence. Trawniki also had under its jurisdiction private enterprises, AR was fundamentally an economic enterprise. So the operation of this gravel quarry being in conjunction with AR activities for salvaging personal property would track with other AR camps like Trawniki.

Since Arbeitslager Treblinka denoted TI and TII collectively, the budget could refer to construction/expansion in both camps. But since there is absolutely no mention anywhere of a delousing facility in TI, but there is obviously a huge amount of controversy surrounding such facilities at TII, the budget for this Entlausungskammer went towards what was most likely a steam chamber at "T-II".

But in reality the entire notion of "T-II" itself as a name doesn't exist in internal camp documents and only comes from the series of documents under the "Stroop Report", and Stroop himself disavowed authorship of that part of the reports at trial. Really it was all "Arbeitslager Treblinka." Both camps. Eberl wasn't using code when it called it what it was- part of Arbeitslager Treblinka.

[PrudentRegret]

AR insider Franz Konrad, whose job in AR was related to registration of property:

The indictment charged Konrad with taking part in “Operation Reinhard” – the euphemism for the mass murder of Jews in the General Government. Under the command of SSPF-Lublin Odilo Globocnik, Konrad was responsible for the so-called Werterfassung – the requisition and registration of property left behind by murdered or deported Jews – and for looting their property for the Third Reich. While engaged in these activities, Konrad pocketed some valuables and money for his own benefit.

...

But when Nowakowski asked Konrad whether he had heard of Treblinka, he answered that he heard of it only after the liquidation of the ghetto and that even then he thought it was a labour camp.

No doubt Nessie will say Konrad was lying for his own defense, but his statement aligns with Eberl's classification of the camp. So there's an AR insider who testified it to being a labor camp.

[Nessie]

So you're back to saying it was at TI even though there are no accounts of a delousing chamber there while there are accounts of such facilities in TII.

I don't know where you get it in your head that AR operations are unable to take place within camps under the jurisdiction of SSPF Warsaw. This is only a constraint you have invented in your mind and it isn't supported by evidence. Trawniki also had under its jurisdiction private enterprises, AR was fundamentally an economic enterprise. So the operation of this gravel quarry being in conjunction with AR activities for salvaging personal property would track with other AR camps like Trawniki.

Obviously the transportation of Jews from the Warsaw ghetto to TII, and the seizure of their property left in Warsaw and what they took with them, link the SSPF and AR.

Since Arbeitslager Treblinka denoted TI and TII collectively, the budget could refer to construction/expansion in both camps. But since there is absolutely no mention anywhere of a delousing facility in TI, but there is obviously a huge amount of controversy surrounding such facilities at TII, the budget for this Entlausungskammer went towards what was most likely a steam chamber at "T-II".

Ironically, that is something "you have invented in your mind and it isn't supported by evidence".

But in reality the entire notion of "T-II" itself as a name doesn't exist in internal camp documents...

There are no surviving internal camp documents.

...and only comes from the series of documents under the "Stroop Report", and Stroop himself disavowed authorship of that part of the reports at trial. Really it was all "Arbeitslager Treblinka." Both camps. Eberl wasn't using code when it called it what it was- part of Arbeitslager Treblinka.

All the revisionists who think it is a transit camp, need to claim calling a work camp, is the use of a code word. Which makes no sense.

[Nessie]

AR insider Franz Konrad, whose job in AR was related to registration of property:

The indictment charged Konrad with taking part in “Operation Reinhard” – the euphemism for the mass murder of Jews in the General Government. Under the command of SSPF-Lublin Odilo Globocnik, Konrad was responsible for the so-called Werterfassung – the requisition and registration of property left behind by murdered or deported Jews – and for looting their property for the Third Reich. While engaged in these activities, Konrad pocketed some valuables and money for his own benefit.

...

But when Nowakowski asked Konrad whether he had heard of Treblinka, he answered that he heard of it only after the liquidation of the ghetto and that even then he thought it was a labour camp.

No doubt Nessie will say Konrad was lying for his own defense, but his statement aligns with Eberl's classification of the camp. So there's an AR insider who testified it to being a labor camp.

There is no evidence he went to the camp, so he will use the plausible deniability excuse of not knowing and thinking it was a work camp. Talking about insiders, you have no inside witness to your claims. Not one single person who spent their days sorting property and who is sure there were no gas chambers.

[PrudentRegret]

Ironically, that is something "you have invented in your mind and it isn't supported by evidence".

Eberl's letter is an internal document and he refers to it as Arbeitslager Treblinka. That's direct evidence that the camp he was constructing was known by that name. There is also evidence and controversy surrounding a steam chamber and multiple delousing facilities at that camp, and there is a budget for a delousing chamber at the camp with the exact same name given by Eberl directly in that document.

And there's the AR insider who, naturally, worked on property administration, who testified to his understanding that "Treblinka" referred to a work camp. That is much more evidence than evidence for that camp being known by "T-II" or being a separate camp from "T-I".

I agree Revisionists need to revisit the transit camp hypothesis for Treblinka at least. No doubt there were many workers being shuffled, transported to/from the quarry labor camp. And a delousing facility at the Jewish camp may have been used by thousands of people coming and going.

But the idea that Treblinka was constructed as a transit camp to secretly receive the 800,000 deportees from Warsaw and everywhere else appears to be getting weaker compared to the economic interpretation of it as a work camp under AR very similar to Trawniki and Poniatowa.

[Wheels]

All the revisionists who think it is a transit camp, need to claim calling a work camp, is the use of a code word. Which makes no sense.

You're begging the question with an unproven Judeocentric supposition that whatever was being done to Jews was the centerpiece of Treblinka. Doesn't seem that it was significant enough to change the camp's function, so you may curb your Judeocentrism.

Let's put it this way: the iconic 30 Rockefeller Plaza building was renamed the RCA Building, then the GE Building and is now the Comcast Building. In every iteration, there's one flagship tenant and then there are other tenants. Latecomer tenants don't necessarily drive a name change unless their prominence is overwhelming and somehow earned.

Arbeitslager Treblinka apparently stayed Arbeitslager Treblinka and everyone agrees labor was performed all over Treblinka. No reason to rename for a secondary function, and the tenancy of SS-Sonderkommando Treblinka at the camp does not seem to have created a formal "Treblinka II" that you keep writing your open hallucinations about. Zero evidence of any formal "Treblinka I" either. Find peace with the apparent fact that it's just Treblinka.