Is there really an elephant in my basement?

[Keen]

I know that this forum doesn't have a specific poll thread, but I'm curious about something.

I would like to know how many forum members would be so stupid as to be talked into believing that they had an elephant in their basement when they couldn't see an elephant in their basement. So mhy question to the members of this forum is:

Do you think that you could be talked into believing that there was an elephant in your basement if you couldn't see an elephant in your basement - Yes. - or - No. - ??

And could you explain why you answered the way you did?

Thanks

Keen's answer: No.

Why?: Because I refuse to believe in the existence of a physical entity that I'm not allowed to see.

[Callafangers]

There is a stolen elephant in Ernie's basement, so we all need to hate Ernie.

"Who is Ernie?", you ask?

Well, Ernie is just my sworn enemy who I hate.

But you can trust me... he's definitely got the stolen elephant there, so we all can be certain that he is evil, and you should hate him too.

[Stubble]

That's as may be Fangers, but, at the end of the day, Bob is still missing, and Ernie was the last person to see him, shortly before he stole that elephant.

A nod to 'missing Bob so we sob'

Missing Bob, So We Sob

Joe: "My neighbor Bob is missing."

Sarah: "Oh, Bob? He's dead."

Joe: "What?!! That's terrible! How do you know?"

Sarah: "Larry said so."

Joe: "Is Larry credible?"

Sarah: "No, not really."

Joe: "Uhh, then he's just missing, we don't know he's dead."

Sarah: "Nuh-uh, Jackie said he's dead too. He's been murdered."

Joe: "But didn't you also say Jackie is a notorious, self-promoting liar? And who killed him?"

Sarah: "Fred did it, at least that's what Larry and Jackie said."

Joe: "Do Larry and Jackie know each other?"

Sarah: "Yeah, they're always fighting each other's battles, and they both hate Fred."

Joe: "So... all you're going on, to say Bob is dead, is that Larry and Jackie -- known liars and co-conspirators -- are saying that Fred, whom they both loathe, has killed Bob?"

Sarah: "Fred also sort of admitted it, but Larry and Jackie caught him cheating on his wife and threatened to tell her, so there's that."

Joe: "Fascinating. What else happened?"

Sarah: "It's worth mentioning that Fred has had a rough relationship with Bob, which is presumably why Larry and Jackie regard their story as believable, and Bob was at Fred's house recently... but all of Fred's written plans show he intended to drop Bob off at McDonald's in Seattle."

Joe: "Did Fred ever go to Seattle?"

Sarah: "Yes, he went there regularly, so he totally could have brought Bob along with him but it's hard to confirm."

Joe: "Interesting... anything else of note?"

Sarah: "Yes, Bob is actually great friends with Larry and Jackie as well. And Larry and Jackie have setup a GoFundMe campaign to raise money to avenge Bob's death, payable regardless of whether or not he winds up dead."

Joe: "Oh, marvelous. So let me get this straight: Larry, Jackie, and Bob are all great friends who hate Fred, and they're trying to frame Fred for murder while also profiting immensely. They offer not a shred of verifiable or physical evidence for their claims that Bob is actually dead. Is that right?"

Sarah: "Not quite -- Larry and Jackie have provided DOCUMENTS; an official police report that includes a statement from Larry and Jackie's friend Walter, who also says Bob is dead! These documents come from the police station. But Larry is an office clerk at the police station and his uncle is the police chief (and also hates Fred), so there's that."

Joe: "Wow. Did anyone ever call the McDonald's to see if Bob showed up?"

Sarah: "Yes, McDonald's said they haven't seen him... but Jackie is the manager at the McDonald's, and she was the only one working that day. She scheduled an 'Iron Shift' for herself, which meant also deactivating the security cameras. Apparently, she also stole $600 from the cash register, so everyone knows she's dishonest as hell."

Joe: "But you believe their story about Bob and Fred?"

Sarah: "Oh, totally. We must give all our money to the GoFundMe and never forget what's happened to Bob, and that Fred is evil for doing it!"

Joe: "Amazing."

[HansHill]

This is a complete waste of time.

1 - that was 80 years ago, and

2 - you can't tell me how many elephants Ernie, Bob or Larry have today.

[Nessie]

Millions of Jews, arrested by the Nazis and their allies, between 1939 and 1944, would result in a massive elephant in the basement. The accommodation of that number of people, whether that is in camps, ghettos or by resettlement, would leave a lot of evidence, due to the logistics and resources needed to feed, clothe, guard and accommodate.

Why do so-called revisionists believe in what is not only not evidenced to have happened, but there is evidence to the contrary, for example, by 1944 every ghetto had closed down and A-B's population was smaller than it had been in 1943?

I believe in the mass graves, because there is evidence of mass graves. That some so-called revisionists chose to disbelieve or ignore that evidence, does not mean the graves are now no longer evidenced.

I can evidence mass graves, so-called revisionists cannot evidence millions supposedly not murdered, still alive in 1944.

[Keen]

Millions of Jews, arrested by the Nazis and their allies, between 1939 and 1944, would result in a massive elephant in the basement. The accommodation of that number of people, whether that is in camps, ghettos or by resettlement, would leave a lot of evidence, due to the logistics and resources needed to feed, clothe, guard and accommodate.

Why do so-called revisionists believe in what is not only not evidenced to have happened, but there is evidence to the contrary, for example, by 1944 every ghetto had closed down and A-B's population was smaller than it had been in 1943?

I believe in the mass graves, because there is evidence of mass graves. That some so-called revisionists chose to disbelieve or ignore that evidence, does not mean the graves are now no longer evidenced.

I can evidence mass graves, so-called revisionists cannot evidence millions supposedly not murdered, still alive in 1944.

Nessie, do you think that you could be talked into believing that there was an elephant in your basement if you couldn't see an elephant in your basement - Yes. - or - No. - ??

And could you explain why you answered the way you did?

[Nessie]

Millions of Jews, arrested by the Nazis and their allies, between 1939 and 1944, would result in a massive elephant in the basement. The accommodation of that number of people, whether that is in camps, ghettos or by resettlement, would leave a lot of evidence, due to the logistics and resources needed to feed, clothe, guard and accommodate.

Why do so-called revisionists believe in what is not only not evidenced to have happened, but there is evidence to the contrary, for example, by 1944 every ghetto had closed down and A-B's population was smaller than it had been in 1943?

I believe in the mass graves, because there is evidence of mass graves. That some so-called revisionists chose to disbelieve or ignore that evidence, does not mean the graves are now no longer evidenced.

I can evidence mass graves, so-called revisionists cannot evidence millions supposedly not murdered, still alive in 1944.

Nessie, do you think that you could be talked into believing that there was an elephant in your basement if you couldn't see an elephant in your basement - Yes. - or - No. - ??

And could you explain why you answered the way you did?

You would like to be able to see the mass graves, more clearly, before you would accept that they are there. I agree it would be more obvious, if the photos taken in 1945, were of better quality, but that was not possible at the time. It would be great if the 2011 survey of TII had produced 3D imagery of the graves, where there was a clear definition between grave and undisturbed ground. Or, if the excavations at Sobibor, had produced clearly delineated graves, compared to undisturbed ground. If the AR camps, looked like Katyn's mass graves after they were opened up, that would have been better.

But, that cannot happen. The evidence is that the Nazis spent time ensuring the graves were as hard to delineate and identify as possible. The photos of the excavators at TII, show how much effort was made into mixing up the ground, so that when the Poles surveyed the site in 1945, the report declared that no mass graves could be found. The earth was so mixed up, by the Nazis and then by grave robbing, that with their limited equipment, they could not clearly differentiate between grave, grave robbing and ground that had never been dug into. The 2011 survey further evidenced how much the ground had been disturbed. But, what it also evidenced was that large areas of the camp had been dug into, which corroborates the witness claims about mass graves.

If I could not see an elephant in the basement, but, there was evidence of the ground in the basement having been dug up, and a survey found parts of a dead elephant buried there, I would believe that an elephant had once been in the basement.
You act is if, unless you can clearly see the elephant, it did not exist. You are like a baby, who has yet to learn that if something is moved to where they cannot see it, it still exists.

[Keen]

Millions of Jews, arrested by the Nazis and their allies, between 1939 and 1944, would result in a massive elephant in the basement. The accommodation of that number of people, whether that is in camps, ghettos or by resettlement, would leave a lot of evidence, due to the logistics and resources needed to feed, clothe, guard and accommodate.

Why do so-called revisionists believe in what is not only not evidenced to have happened, but there is evidence to the contrary, for example, by 1944 every ghetto had closed down and A-B's population was smaller than it had been in 1943?

I believe in the mass graves, because there is evidence of mass graves. That some so-called revisionists chose to disbelieve or ignore that evidence, does not mean the graves are now no longer evidenced.

I can evidence mass graves, so-called revisionists cannot evidence millions supposedly not murdered, still alive in 1944.

Nessie, do you think that you could be talked into believing that there was an elephant in your basement if you couldn't see an elephant in your basement - Yes. - or - No. - ??

And could you explain why you answered the way you did?

You would like to be able to see the mass graves, more clearly, before you would accept that they are there. I agree it would be more obvious, if the photos taken in 1945, were of better quality, but that was not possible at the time. It would be great if the 2011 survey of TII had produced 3D imagery of the graves, where there was a clear definition between grave and undisturbed ground. Or, if the excavations at Sobibor, had produced clearly delineated graves, compared to undisturbed ground. If the AR camps, looked like Katyn's mass graves after they were opened up, that would have been better.

But, that cannot happen. The evidence is that the Nazis spent time ensuring the graves were as hard to delineate and identify as possible. The photos of the excavators at TII, show how much effort was made into mixing up the ground, so that when the Poles surveyed the site in 1945, the report declared that no mass graves could be found. The earth was so mixed up, by the Nazis and then by grave robbing, that with their limited equipment, they could not clearly differentiate between grave, grave robbing and ground that had never been dug into. The 2011 survey further evidenced how much the ground had been disturbed. But, what it also evidenced was that large areas of the camp had been dug into, which corroborates the witness claims about mass graves.

If I could not see an elephant in the basement, but, there was evidence of the ground in the basement having been dug up, and a survey found parts of a dead elephant buried there, I would believe that an elephant had once been in the basement.
You act is if, unless you can clearly see the elephant, it did not exist. You are like a baby, who has yet to learn that if something is moved to where they cannot see it, it still exists.

Nessie, do you think that you could be talked into believing that there was an elephant in your basement if you couldn't see an elephant in your basement - Yes. - or - No. - ??

And could you explain why you answered the way you did?

[Nessie]

If there was no evidence of an elephant in the basement, then I would not believe there was an elephant in the basement. I would be so naive, to think that just because I cannot see an elephant in the basement, that is enough to prove there is no elephant there. I would want to do a more thorough check than that.

[Keen]

I would [not ] be so naive, to think that just because I cannot see an elephant in the basement, that is enough to prove there is no elephant there.

There you have it folks, mental illness in the extreme.

https://youtu.be/ik9f93wVK74

You never know, maybe it could be a magically disappearing elephant, right Nessie?

[Nessie]

I would [not ] be so naive, to think that just because I cannot see an elephant in the basement, that is enough to prove there is no elephant there.

There you have it folks, mental illness in the extreme.

https://youtu.be/ik9f93wVK74

You never know, maybe it could be a magically disappearing elephant, right Nessie?

What about the elephant that had been killed and buried in the basement? How do you rule that out? Would you not excavate to see if remains can be found? Even if just a few elephant bones were found, would you not accept that as proof? Or would you just go into full scale denial and start to ask millions of questions, as you seek to convince yourself that no elephant remains have been found?

[Nazgul]

What about the elephant that had been killed and buried in the basement? How do you rule that out? Would you not excavate to see if remains can be found? Even if just a few elephant bones were found, would you not accept that as proof? Or would you just go into full scale denial and start to ask millions of questions, as you seek to convince yourself that no elephant remains have been found?

Who would believe this epistemological argument, Schrödinger's elephant. Schrödinger's elephant exists in a dual state until the door is opened and the excavation is done. Nessie the quantum physicist.

[Nessie]

What about the elephant that had been killed and buried in the basement? How do you rule that out? Would you not excavate to see if remains can be found? Even if just a few elephant bones were found, would you not accept that as proof? Or would you just go into full scale denial and start to ask millions of questions, as you seek to convince yourself that no elephant remains have been found?

Who would believe this epistemological argument, Schrödinger's elephant. Schrödinger's elephant exists in a dual state until the door is opened and the excavation is done. Nessie the quantum physicist.

You are the one pretending there is no elephant buried in the basement, despite the discovery of the partial remains of a buried elephant.

[Nazgul]

You are the one pretending there is no elephant buried in the basement, despite the discovery of the partial remains of a buried elephant.

Despite the claims of a single explanation there are others such as superposition, which can be thought of as an equation that has more than one solution. Perhaps the elephant thought to be alive was dead before it was put in the room. Perhaps there was no elephant at all but say a walrus that everyone thought was an elephant. Could just be rumours, that people convinced themselves an elephant was put in the room because of gossip.
What is wrong is that because a bone of an elephant was found, the claim 1000 elephants were buried somewhere in the basement has no foundation. Even that bone found could be due to a circus in the area long before the room was built. Perhaps there was an elephant graveyard there before the room was built.
This is the task of real investigators to sort out.

[Nessie]

You are the one pretending there is no elephant buried in the basement, despite the discovery of the partial remains of a buried elephant.

Despite the claims of a single explanation there are others such as superposition, which can be thought of as an equation that has more than one solution. Perhaps the elephant thought to be alive was dead before it was put in the room. Perhaps there was no elephant at all but say a walrus that everyone thought was an elephant. Could just be rumours, that people convinced themselves an elephant was put in the room because of gossip.
What is wrong is that because a bone of an elephant was found, the claim 1000 elephants were buried somewhere in the basement has no foundation. Even that bone found could be due to a circus in the area long before the room was built. Perhaps there was an elephant graveyard there before the room was built.
This is the task of real investigators to sort out.

You are now having to move the goalposts. The point I have made, is that to determine what has happened in the basement, it has to be thoroughly examined and searched for evidence, from eyewitnesses who have been inside it, to qualified people conducting a forensic examination and excavation.

What has happened with Keen, is that once evidence of a dead elephant has been found, buried in the basement, and he does not want that to be true, because it means there was an elephant there, he goes into mental overload, thinking of reasons to deny that evidence.