False witnesses are not neutral

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Nessie
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Re: False witnesses are not neutral

Post by Nessie »

Hektor wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2024 4:48 pm
Nessie wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2024 3:09 pm ....
Around 2.5 million people saw inside of either TII, Sobibor, Belzec, Chelmno or an A-B Krema. Not one single person is a witness to any of those places not have gas chambers and what happened instead. That is lying on a massive scale, which you want to deny, because it shows how improbable Holocaust denial's main claim of no gassings is.

So you say there are 2.5 million witnesses that say they saw gas chambers (homicidal?) in those places?
That is clearly not what I said. Revisionists argue there were no homicidal gassings in those places. Since c2.5 million people saw those places, that means revisionists are arguing they have all lied, either stating there were gassings, or by omission, by keeping quiet about what really took place.
There are a handful of people that allege that they saw homicidal gassings taking place at those places. It isn't exactly unknown that a small amount like this can be pathological liars. Many Holocaust Witnesses were demonstrably exactly that.
There are about 130 people who gave evidence at the various trials, interviews or wrote memories about working at the gas chambers. There are significantly more who saw the process around the gas chambers, the selection process, property sorting and disappearance of those sent to the relevant buildings.

Revisionists cannot provide evidence to prove any of the eyewitnesses to gassings lied. Instead, they argue they are "pathological liars" using faulty logic and without any cognisance of the numerous studies of witnesses, recollection and memory.
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TlsMS93
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Re: False witnesses are not neutral

Post by TlsMS93 »

Hektor wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2024 4:48 pm
Nessie wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2024 3:09 pm ....
Around 2.5 million people saw inside of either TII, Sobibor, Belzec, Chelmno or an A-B Krema. Not one single person is a witness to any of those places not have gas chambers and what happened instead. That is lying on a massive scale, which you want to deny, because it shows how improbable Holocaust denial's main claim of no gassings is.

So you say there are 2.5 million witnesses that say they saw gas chambers (homicidal?) in those places?

There are a handful of people that allege that they saw homicidal gassings taking place at those places. It isn't exactly unknown that a small amount like this can be pathological liars. Many Holocaust Witnesses were demonstrably exactly that.
They saw it and by a miracle they didn't die, water came out of the shower instead of gas, or maybe Nessie has knowledge of spiritualism psychography and they told him about it.
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Hektor
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Re: False witnesses are not neutral

Post by Hektor »

TlsMS93 wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2024 5:19 pm
Hektor wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2024 4:48 pm
Nessie wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2024 3:09 pm ....
Around 2.5 million people saw inside of either TII, Sobibor, Belzec, Chelmno or an A-B Krema. Not one single person is a witness to any of those places not have gas chambers and what happened instead. That is lying on a massive scale, which you want to deny, because it shows how improbable Holocaust denial's main claim of no gassings is.

So you say there are 2.5 million witnesses that say they saw gas chambers (homicidal?) in those places?

There are a handful of people that allege that they saw homicidal gassings taking place at those places. It isn't exactly unknown that a small amount like this can be pathological liars. Many Holocaust Witnesses were demonstrably exactly that.
They saw it and by a miracle they didn't die, water came out of the shower instead of gas, or maybe Nessie has knowledge of spiritualism psychography and they told him about it.
Nessie recalls some testimony it found useful. Then extrapolated it to 2.5 million witnesses... Sounds like leaps of logic to me....
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Nessie
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Re: False witnesses are not neutral

Post by Nessie »

Hektor wrote: Sat Nov 30, 2024 6:32 am
TlsMS93 wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2024 5:19 pm
Hektor wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2024 4:48 pm


So you say there are 2.5 million witnesses that say they saw gas chambers (homicidal?) in those places?

There are a handful of people that allege that they saw homicidal gassings taking place at those places. It isn't exactly unknown that a small amount like this can be pathological liars. Many Holocaust Witnesses were demonstrably exactly that.
They saw it and by a miracle they didn't die, water came out of the shower instead of gas, or maybe Nessie has knowledge of spiritualism psychography and they told him about it.
Nessie recalls some testimony it found useful. Then extrapolated it to 2.5 million witnesses... Sounds like leaps of logic to me....
Historians say c2.5 million were gassed in certain camps. Revisionists say those people were not killed, but they cannot produce a single witness from the c2.5 million, who therefore have stayed silent and lied by omission about the real purpose of the certain camps.

The logical fail is the revisionist one of not thinking through their claims to a logical conclusion.
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Hektor
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Re: False witnesses are not neutral

Post by Hektor »

Nessie wrote: Sat Nov 30, 2024 8:22 am
Hektor wrote: Sat Nov 30, 2024 6:32 am
TlsMS93 wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2024 5:19 pm

They saw it and by a miracle they didn't die, water came out of the shower instead of gas, or maybe Nessie has knowledge of spiritualism psychography and they told him about it.
Nessie recalls some testimony it found useful. Then extrapolated it to 2.5 million witnesses... Sounds like leaps of logic to me....
Historians say c2.5 million were gassed in certain camps. Revisionists say those people were not killed, but they cannot produce a single witness from the c2.5 million, who therefore have stayed silent and lied by omission about the real purpose of the certain camps.

The logical fail is the revisionist one of not thinking through their claims to a logical conclusion.
You got that the wrong way around it seems. Just because I don't have a witness that something didn't happen, doesn't mean it happened. I don't give a damn what some historians. They let their findings rest on some government reports and make as if they were somehow neutral and objective. They were not and that means that those historians have discredited themself.
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Nessie
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Re: False witnesses are not neutral

Post by Nessie »

Hektor wrote: Sat Nov 30, 2024 9:26 am
Nessie wrote: Sat Nov 30, 2024 8:22 am ...

Historians say c2.5 million were gassed in certain camps. Revisionists say those people were not killed, but they cannot produce a single witness from the c2.5 million, who therefore have stayed silent and lied by omission about the real purpose of the certain camps.

The logical fail is the revisionist one of not thinking through their claims to a logical conclusion.
You got that the wrong way around it seems. Just because I don't have a witness that something didn't happen, doesn't mean it happened.
If you have a potential of c2.5 million witnesses and not one single one of them has come forward to say what you think happened, then it is reasonable to say it did not happen. Lying on that scale is impossible. Someone would deliberately or accidentally break ranks and reveal the truth.
I don't give a damn what some historians. They let their findings rest on some government reports and make as if they were somehow neutral and objective. They were not and that means that those historians have discredited themself.
Revisionists are the least neutral of historical investigators. They hold their opinionated argument in a higher regard than actual evidence.

Fact is, which Archie has tried to dispute, revisionists argue that 100% of the witnesses to gassings are lying. German, Ukrainian, Polish, Hungarian, Jewish, SS, Nazi, civilian, all of them are liars. That one single witness, out of the c2.5 million who went to those places, which includes people of every nationality under Nazi occupation, can be traced, who gives an alternative narrative that does not include gassings, is extraordinary. Only die hard conspiracists will believe that is possible.
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Nazgul
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Re: False witnesses are not neutral

Post by Nazgul »

Nessie wrote: Sat Nov 30, 2024 8:22 am therefore have stayed silent and lied by omission about the real purpose of the certain camps.
Facebook was not around in that era, different era and mindset actually. People for some strange reason do not speak about non events, like bored teens today. Even papers then did not print non events, unless it was propaganda. If the papers were printing propaganda, of gassings and so on, all those who were treated well would not tell their story. This is what happened to Olszuk. Those who had something interesting happen might write a memoir or book, but most people, even today say nothing, which is why the past is erased to a great extent.
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bombsaway
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Re: False witnesses are not neutral

Post by bombsaway »

Nazgul wrote: Sat Nov 30, 2024 10:01 am
Facebook was not around in that era, different era and mindset actually. People for some strange reason do not speak about non events, like bored teens today.
The apparently undisputed findings of mass graves with large amounts of ash at the Reinhardt camps and Chelmno speak to enormous casualties (tens of thousands of people at least) in transit or at the camps themselves. Riding in a train where a large fraction of the passengers die over a day or two is certainly not going to be a non-event for the survivors.
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Hektor
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Re: False witnesses are not neutral

Post by Hektor »

bombsaway wrote: Sat Nov 30, 2024 3:58 pm
Nazgul wrote: Sat Nov 30, 2024 10:01 am
Facebook was not around in that era, different era and mindset actually. People for some strange reason do not speak about non events, like bored teens today.
The apparently undisputed findings of mass graves with large amounts of ash at the Reinhardt camps and Chelmno speak to enormous casualties (tens of thousands of people at least) in transit or at the camps themselves. Riding in a train where a large fraction of the passengers die over a day or two is certainly not going to be a non-event for the survivors.
Actually, if that's the case. why so flimsy, why not come up with a more clear statement?

I tell you why, because one tries to camouflage that they didn't find anything worse showing.
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bombsaway
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Re: False witnesses are not neutral

Post by bombsaway »

Hektor wrote: Sat Nov 30, 2024 7:07 pm
bombsaway wrote: Sat Nov 30, 2024 3:58 pm
Nazgul wrote: Sat Nov 30, 2024 10:01 am
Facebook was not around in that era, different era and mindset actually. People for some strange reason do not speak about non events, like bored teens today.
The apparently undisputed findings of mass graves with large amounts of ash at the Reinhardt camps and Chelmno speak to enormous casualties (tens of thousands of people at least) in transit or at the camps themselves. Riding in a train where a large fraction of the passengers die over a day or two is certainly not going to be a non-event for the survivors.
Actually, if that's the case. why so flimsy, why not come up with a more clear statement?

I tell you why, because one tries to camouflage that they didn't find anything worse showing.
You can respond to this in the other thread but what they found was perfectly clear. Precise grave descriptions showing thousands of cubic meters of ash layers

https://www.holocausthistoricalsociety. ... tions.html

no one has explained the ash layers from a revisionist perspective viewtopic.php?p=1599#p1599
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Hektor
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Re: False witnesses are not neutral

Post by Hektor »

bombsaway wrote: Sat Nov 30, 2024 8:09 pm
Hektor wrote: Sat Nov 30, 2024 7:07 pm
bombsaway wrote: Sat Nov 30, 2024 3:58 pm

The apparently undisputed findings of mass graves with large amounts of ash at the Reinhardt camps and Chelmno speak to enormous casualties (tens of thousands of people at least) in transit or at the camps themselves. Riding in a train where a large fraction of the passengers die over a day or two is certainly not going to be a non-event for the survivors.
Actually, if that's the case. why so flimsy, why not come up with a more clear statement?

I tell you why, because one tries to camouflage that they didn't find anything worse showing.
You can respond to this in the other thread but what they found was perfectly clear. Precise grave descriptions showing thousands of cubic meters of ash layers

https://www.holocausthistoricalsociety. ... tions.html

no one has explained the ash layers from a revisionist perspective viewtopic.php?p=1599#p1599
No, he didn't. Ash layer is something else than having earth materials that contain some ash and something that could be human remains. In theory you can find that at quite many places, especially when tat was in a war zone at some stage. So the probative value is low at best. And finding 'something' at said places was to be expected if the Revisionist Thesis was true anyway. So what did they find that is distinctive in case the Exterminationist Thesis is true?
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