Why do the reality deniers run from this simple question? [non-nefarious diggings]

[Keen]

A - Is it - True. - or - False. - that; Non-nefarious diggings for such things as garbage pits, cellars, wells, latrines, septic pits, etc. - were dug at Belzec, Chelmno, Ponary, Sobibor and Treblinka II - ??

[Keen]

Yoram Haimi:

In the first area (Camp II), a number of refuse pits were discovered

Object 5681 served as a well that eventually was used as grave No. 17.

During the excavations we exposed... a latrine. In the southern part of the latrine we found... the septic

Come on reality deniers, you can't run forever:

A - Is it - True. - or - False. - that; Non-nefarious diggings for such things as garbage pits, cellars, wells, latrines, septic pits, etc. - were dug at Belzec, Chelmno, Ponary, Sobibor and Treblinka II - ??

[Archie]

At first I thought this was a repetition of other threads, but Keen is actually raising a point that is often glossed over. The issue of "non-nefarious diggings" is something to keep in mind with the grave density discussions (where Holocaust promoters routinely assume every last inch of potential grave space must have been packed with bodies).

[Stubble]

One I thought was interesting was grave 16 at Sobibor. They aren't sure it is from when the camp was there or even during wartime.

Even just finding a grave some place doesn't mean 'the nazis' killed those people.

This extends to mass graves. One needs to keep in mind that the Soviet was killing people in purges before, during and after the war. Just because you find a mass grave doesn't mean 'the nazis killed them'.

The issue gets complex.

[bombsaway]

One I thought was interesting was grave 16 at Sobibor. They aren't sure it is from when the camp was there or even during wartime.

Even just finding a grave some place doesn't mean 'the nazis' killed those people.

This extends to mass graves. One needs to keep in mind that the Soviet was killing people in purges before, during and after the war. Just because you find a mass grave doesn't mean 'the nazis killed them'.

The issue gets complex.

Sure but then you have to explain reports of a eg grave with dimensions " 70 x 20-25 m
with the depth of around 5m. In bottom layers the grave is bony, with human
remains in wax- fat transformation. The upper layers are a mixture of burnt
body remains with layers of lime stone, sand and charcoal."

I think you can only get out of this by saying, he is just lying.

[Stubble]

You see, you keep moving this back to Kola. I'm looking at the excavations.

Regarding Kola, given what the digs have turned up, I think he is mistaken, if not lying.

I will grant something to Kola, he showed integrity by actually reporting his findings regarding the alleged physical grave space. I'm sure that was hard for him to do, especially at Belzec, but, he did do that, and appears to have been honest at least about the space.

You put much faith into samples smaller than your palm.

[Keen]

One I thought was interesting was grave 16 at Sobibor. They aren't sure it is from when the camp was there or even during wartime.

Even just finding a grave some place doesn't mean 'the nazis' killed those people.

This extends to mass graves. One needs to keep in mind that the Soviet was killing people in purges before, during and after the war. Just because you find a mass grave doesn't mean 'the nazis killed them'.

The issue gets complex.

Not if you keep it simple.

When trying to determine how many graves, mass or otherwise, are in a specific location, then that's all you are trying to determine. The more complex issues can be taken care of later.

FIRST - determine how many are there. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Stubble]

One I thought was interesting was grave 16 at Sobibor. They aren't sure it is from when the camp was there or even during wartime.

Even just finding a grave some place doesn't mean 'the nazis' killed those people.

This extends to mass graves. One needs to keep in mind that the Soviet was killing people in purges before, during and after the war. Just because you find a mass grave doesn't mean 'the nazis killed them'.

The issue gets complex.

Not if you keep it simple.

When trying to determine how many graves, mass or otherwise, are in a specific location, then that's all you are trying to determine. The more complex issues can be taken care of later.

FIRST - determine how many are there. Nothing more, nothing less.

Absolutely, the allegation has to be examined.

That this wasn't even attempted until the '90's and then wasn't actually begun as an excavation until the twenty teens and even then only at Sobibor is mind boggling to me.

Also, no, of course I do not count the Soviet Polish Commission. (An in before caveat)

[Keen]

At first I thought this was a repetition of other threads, but Keen is actually raising a point that is often glossed over. The issue of "non-nefarious diggings" is something to keep in mind with the grave density discussions (where Holocaust promoters routinely assume every last inch of potential grave space must have been packed with bodies).

Exactly.

Take Treblinka II for example. It is alleged that the remains of 925,000 jews buried there. And the hoaxers have allegedly identified 15 "possible pits / probable graves" there. If all 15 of those "possible pits / probable" graves were actual "huge mass graves" then each grave would, on average, contain the remains of 61,667 jews. But if it is admitted that there were just one garbage pit, cellar, well, latrine and septic pit at T II, then each of the 10 remaining graves would contain, on average, 92,500 jews, thus making an already untenable allegation even more untenable.

Also, if the low IQ reality deniers are forced to admit the truth that there are supposed to have been those things in the camps, then they are put into a corner when asked the inevitable question: "Which of the "possible pits / probable graves" are the actual graves and which are the garbage pits, cellars, wells, latrines, septic pits? And since they can't answer the question because they don't know, then they are really put into a corner when the next inevitable question is posed to them: "Well, If you don't know which of the "possible pits / probable graves" are the actual alleged graves and which are the non-nefarious diggings, then how do you know if any of them are actually graves?"

And THAT is why they steadfastly refuse to answer the simple fundamental question. (They aren't called reality deniers for nothing!)

Also, if each of the 5 camps of Belzec, Chelmno, Ponary, Sobibor and Treblinka II were admitted to each have had just one garbage pit, cellar, well, latrine and septic pit, then the total number of fraudulently alleged mass graves would decrease from 96 to 71. And 2.145 million divided by 71 = 30,211.

[Keen]

One I thought was interesting was grave 16 at Sobibor. They aren't sure it is from when the camp was there or even during wartime.

Even just finding a grave some place doesn't mean 'the nazis' killed those people.

This extends to mass graves. One needs to keep in mind that the Soviet was killing people in purges before, during and after the war. Just because you find a mass grave doesn't mean 'the nazis killed them'.

The issue gets complex.

Sure but then you have to explain reports of a eg grave with dimensions " 70 x 20-25 m
with the depth of around 5m. In bottom layers the grave is bony, with human
remains in wax- fat transformation. The upper layers are a mixture of burnt
body remains with layers of lime stone, sand and charcoal."

I think you can only get out of this by saying, he is just lying.

No bombsaway, there is another, very simple way "to get out of this" and that is to challenge you to have the courage, integrity and character to assume the burden of proof and prove your unsubstantiated allegations about the existence of this alleged mass grave. Then, when you cravenly refuse, like the lying coward that you are, everyone will laugh at you for being so stupid and cowardly.

Like I'm doing now

[Stubble]

Keen, don't forget the 'wildcat' digging by people 'grave robbing', which apparently, was such a huge problem that masses of concrete, jagged rocks and rebar are necessary to prevent such illicit activity.

[Wetzelrad]

You see, you keep moving this back to Kola. I'm looking at the excavations.

Regarding Kola, given what the digs have turned up, I think he is mistaken, if not lying.

From my notes, Kola's claimed wax-fat skeleton graves are graves 3 thru 6. The ones that Mazurek and Haimi dug up are not those. They dug up sand graves and graves with one to six skeletons, but were reticent about Kola's mass graves. Therefore we don't have photos or other evidence for what is described. We can only assume and put our faith in the Holocaust on this one. Keen is right to demand substantiation.

[Keen]

Keen, don't forget the 'wildcat' digging by people 'grave robbing', which apparently, was such a huge problem that masses of concrete, jagged rocks and rebar are necessary to prevent such illicit activity.

Yes, good point, but those are things that allegedly happened after the camps were shut down, and opens up another can of worms and new arguments that I don't care to get into. I want to keep things as simple as possible, so I try to stick to the things that the so-called "eyewitnesses" claimed were there or that people like Haimi claimed to have found.

The simpler the better.

[Stubble]

You see, you keep moving this back to Kola. I'm looking at the excavations.

Regarding Kola, given what the digs have turned up, I think he is mistaken, if not lying.

From my notes, Kola's claimed wax-fat skeleton graves are graves 3 thru 6. The ones that Mazurek and Haimi dug up are not those. They dug up sand graves and graves with one to six skeletons, but were reticent about Kola's mass graves. Therefore we don't have photos or other evidence for what is described. We can only assume and put our faith in the Holocaust on this one. Keen is right to demand substantiation.

Oh but they did;



This is from one of the 2013 digs. Spring if I recall correctly, there are others.

[Keen]

You see, you keep moving this back to Kola. I'm looking at the excavations.

Regarding Kola, given what the digs have turned up, I think he is mistaken, if not lying.

From my notes, Kola's claimed wax-fat skeleton graves are graves 3 thru 6. The ones that Mazurek and Haimi dug up are not those. They dug up sand graves and graves with one to six skeletons, but were reticent about Kola's mass graves. Therefore we don't have photos or other evidence for what is described. We can only assume and put our faith in the Holocaust on this one. Keen is right to demand substantiation.

Oh but they did;



This is from one of the 2013 digs. Spring if I recall correctly, there are others.

Excellent.

Keep those photos comming.

But could I ask a favor?

Could you post them the the Sobibor mass graves thread and not in this one?

Thanks.

Oh, and can we verify that what we are told we are looking at in that photo is what they say it is?

And if so, is it human hair?

And how does hair survive "cremation"?