Undeserved reply to CJ on population statistics

[Archie]

Korherr explains the difficulties of counting Jews (from the "short" version).

Necessary reservation. Jewish statistics cannot be regarded uncritically, as there is much scope for error in determining Jewish population figures. Erroneous statistics are attributable inter alia to Jewry's character and development and problems in identifying people as Jews. In addition there have been Jewry's tireless migrations over thousands of years, countless conversions and lapses, attempts at integration, assimilation into the host populations and above all attempts by Jews to avoid being identified as such.

This is really quite similar to the article cited earlier by Dr. Hans Kohn explaining the same difficulties. It seems both Nazis and Jews agree that the whole exercise is fraught with challenges.

[Nessie]

Korherr explains the difficulties of counting Jews (from the "short" version).

Necessary reservation. Jewish statistics cannot be regarded uncritically, as there is much scope for error in determining Jewish population figures. Erroneous statistics are attributable inter alia to Jewry's character and development and problems in identifying people as Jews. In addition there have been Jewry's tireless migrations over thousands of years, countless conversions and lapses, attempts at integration, assimilation into the host populations and above all attempts by Jews to avoid being identified as such.

This is really quite similar to the article cited earlier by Dr. Hans Kohn explaining the same difficulties. It seems both Nazis and Jews agree that the whole exercise is fraught with challenges.

It was an exercise that they put a huge amount of resources into, often with active assistance. The most accurate figures come from the Germans, Austrians and the Netherlands. The Dutch civil service and police were very cooperative, in enforcing the Nuremberg Race Laws. They all record an indisputable, massive drop, in their Jewish populations, 1939 to 1945, with little spring back after 1945. Those countries had the highest arrest rates, for Jewish citizens.

The countries with the lowest arrest rates, Denmark, Finland and France, are able to show far lower population drops and where their Jewish citizens were in 1945.

What you are doing, is only discussing countries where statistics are harder to come by, such as Ukraine, or Latvia, as their census figures are not so definitive and many Jews were killed, on, or shortly after being arrested, so they were undocumented and have to estimated. There is one source of figures that give precise numbers, the Einsatzgruppen reports of Jews shot, but, it is known, they were prone to exaggeration.

However, whether a country has accurate, well-kept figures or not, every single one reported drops, when Jews came into contact with the Nazis. Plus, there were countries, Romania and Serbia, who took avantage of the war and the opportunity alliance with the Nazis gave them, to conduct their own mass killing of Jewish citizens. If it was all a hoax, why do they admit to mass murders they did not do? Would they not prefer to be another Denmark, and say they resisted the Nazis?

No matter what the circumstances, every nation in Europe, lost Jews and had fewer in 1945, than in 1939. Some can provide detailed figures and other less so.

[Keen]

If it was all a hoax, why do they admit to mass murders they did not do?

Just another lame attempt at shifting the burden of proof.

Questions like these from low IQ reality deniers like Sergay are nothing less than tacit admissions that the fraudulently alleged mass murder of jews in the so-called "pure extermination centers" have been proven to be lies.

[TlsMS93]

Yes, it is circumstantial evidence, evidence of opportunity.

We have already discussed that spurious and poorly made poster calling on Jews to gather on a street corner.

[ConfusedJew]

You think that it was easier to get accurate numbers in 1945 with everything in shambles than it was in the 1930s? Delusional.

That's not what I said. IQ test!?!?!!?!?!?!?!?!

If you agree with what I said then you are not realizing the implications.

Your argument was that the prewar and postwar stats showing a decrease of perhaps five and a half million or so was proof of the Holocaust. If you acknowledge that there was considerable variation in the prewar figure and that the postwar figure is even more uncertain, that completely undermines your entire argument.

Again, that's not at all what I said. And there isn't considerable variation in the prewar figure. Professional demographers have studied the figures closely and estimated a range of 0.5m. You shouldn't take the authority of an offhanded comment by a Nazi as reliable. If you understand what I am saying, you will realize how pointless this specific thread is.

[ConfusedJew]

You are here to mindlessly defend your ethnic tribe, and you are doing a very poor job of it.

If you were here for intellectual reasons, then 1) you'd actually be curious about it and would have started reading up and researching it, 2) you would actually listen to what others have to say and you would give their comments serious thought. You don't do either of those things at all. We see a lot of people who are starting to get into this. We know what it looks like when someone is truly interested (on either side), and you ain't it.

I'm here to defend the truth.

1. I have done a lot of research by talking to a lot of different people. That is immeasurably more efficient than reading dozens of books.

2. I do listen and give serious thought to the arguments that even seem to have any merit at all.

3. You don't like what I am saying because I am don't agree with you. That doesn't mean that I am not curious. Maybe it just means that what you are saying doesn't make sense logically or isn't backed by reliable evidence.

[Archie]

That's not what I said. IQ test!?!?!!?!?!?!?!?!

If you agree with what I said then you are not realizing the implications.

Your argument was that the prewar and postwar stats showing a decrease of perhaps five and a half million or so was proof of the Holocaust. If you acknowledge that there was considerable variation in the prewar figure and that the postwar figure is even more uncertain, that completely undermines your entire argument.

Again, that's not at all what I said. And there isn't considerable variation in the prewar figure. Professional demographers have studied the figures closely and estimated a range of 0.5m. You shouldn't take the authority of an offhanded comment by a Nazi as reliable. If you understand what I am saying, you will realize how pointless this specific thread is.

You are so full of it. This is clearly bad faith on your part.

"Offhand comment by a Nazi"

Dr. Richard Korherr (30 October 1903 – 24 November 1989) was a professional statistician in Nazi Germany,[2] and chief inspector of the statistical bureau of the SS during World War II.[3] Korherr eventually held the rank of SS-Sturmbannführer.[4] (Wikipedia)

Korherr was Himmler's head statistician in a government that was obsessed with Jews, and all of the statements I have quoted from him come from formally prepared reports. To dismiss this as an "offhand comment by a Nazi" is a lie. You are lying to me, and I know it's deliberate because you yourself have cited Korherr as proof in some of your other posts. So either those posts were plagiarized and you don't even know who Korherr is or you do know and are lying above. Either way you are dishonest.

You also dismissed the numbers I showed you from the American Jewish Committee with no explanation, merely saying that it was "known" that those numbers were unreliable. (???)

From the AJC's 1945-1946 statistical report: "The total number of Jews in the world today is estimated to be approximately eleven and a half million, as compared with a pre-1939 estimate of fifteen and three-quarters millions." Go ahead and check their reports throughout the 1930s. They consistently used lower prewar figures.

https://ajcarchives.org/Portal/Yearbook ... Index/2606

From the AJC's report from the next year (1946-1947): "The figures reveal that the total Jewish population of the world has decreased by one-third, from about 16,600,000 in 1939 to about 11,000,000 in 1946, as a result of the annihilation by the Nazis of more than five and a half million European Jews."

https://ajcarchives.org/Portal/Yearbook ... Index/2621

The 1939 figure was revised from 15.75 to 16.6, an increase of 850,000. That kills your lie above about all estimates being "within 0.5m." And then the 1945 was also revised by 500,000 but in the other direction, meaning a revision in the difference of 1.35M.

And as for your earlier unsupported claim that the AJC was not competent, that is just nonsense. They were as qualified as anybody. One of their statisticians who is named in their statistical report was Harry Sebee Linfield.

Harry Sebee Linfield, aka H.S. Linfield (Hebrew: הרב צבי הירש לינפעלד, romanized: Zvi Hirsch Linfield; 31 October 1888 – 24 November 1978)[1] was a 20th Century demographer and statistician of the Jewish people.

Linfield was also a rabbi, author and historian who produced publications for the American Jewish Committee, the Bureau of Jewish Social Research and the Jewish Statistical Bureau, amongst other organizations. (Wikipedia)

Why you are besmirching the honor of Rabbi Linfield, a well-known and respected Jewish demographer?

I already quoted for you Dr. Hans Kohn's prewar estimate of "around 16M" (600K below the "corrected" AJC number) along with his many caveats explaining why exact numbers are not possible.

You can that some of these sources had it wrong and that they were able to correct it and that you have faith in those revised numbers. But to deny that they was variation in estimates or to mischaracterize the credentials of the people in question is not an acceptable argument. That's just lying.

[ConfusedJew]

You are so full of it. This is clearly bad faith on your part.

"Offhand comment by a Nazi"

Dr. Richard Korherr (30 October 1903 – 24 November 1989) was a professional statistician in Nazi Germany,[2] and chief inspector of the statistical bureau of the SS during World War II.[3] Korherr eventually held the rank of SS-Sturmbannführer.[4] (Wikipedia)

Korherr was Himmler's head statistician in a government that was obsessed with Jews, and all of the statements I have quoted from him come from formally prepared reports. To dismiss this as an "offhand comment by a Nazi" is a lie. You are lying to me, and I know it's deliberate because you yourself have cited Korherr as proof in some of your other posts. So either those posts were plagiarized and you don't even know who Korherr is or you do know and are lying above. Either way you are dishonest.

You also dismissed the numbers I showed you from the American Jewish Committee with no explanation, merely saying that it was "known" that those numbers were unreliable. (???)

It's not a lie, but even if he were a world class statistician, which I cannot confirm or deny at this point, new data sources get uncovered, new methodologies are developed, and older estimates get stress tested and refined. Statistical estimates of historical events tend to improve over time.

If you really want to get into the weeds of the demographics and statistics, I can do that, but I need you to first acknowledge that the above statement is true.

The AJC was not a rigorous estimate. Some studies and estimates have better methods, better data, and are more rigorously stress tested against different perspectives which is why peer review is supposed to be a good system but it has been largely co-opted by profit and politics.

[Wahrheitssucher]

I'm here to defend the truth.

Oh dear! Someone who doesn’t read or listen to rival viewpoints but somehow has concluded they know ‘the truth’!!

I have done a lot of research by talking to a lot of different people. That is immeasurably more efficient than reading dozens of books.

Wow!

[Archie]

You are so full of it. This is clearly bad faith on your part.

"Offhand comment by a Nazi"

Dr. Richard Korherr (30 October 1903 – 24 November 1989) was a professional statistician in Nazi Germany,[2] and chief inspector of the statistical bureau of the SS during World War II.[3] Korherr eventually held the rank of SS-Sturmbannführer.[4] (Wikipedia)

Korherr was Himmler's head statistician in a government that was obsessed with Jews, and all of the statements I have quoted from him come from formally prepared reports. To dismiss this as an "offhand comment by a Nazi" is a lie. You are lying to me, and I know it's deliberate because you yourself have cited Korherr as proof in some of your other posts. So either those posts were plagiarized and you don't even know who Korherr is or you do know and are lying above. Either way you are dishonest.

You also dismissed the numbers I showed you from the American Jewish Committee with no explanation, merely saying that it was "known" that those numbers were unreliable. (???)

It's not a lie, but even if he were a world class statistician, which I cannot confirm or deny at this point, new data sources get uncovered, new methodologies are developed, and older estimates get stress tested and refined. Statistical estimates of historical events tend to improve over time.

If you really want to get into the weeds of the demographics and statistics, I can do that, but I need you to first acknowledge that the above statement is true.

The AJC was not a rigorous estimate. Some studies and estimates have better methods, better data, and are more rigorously stress tested against different perspectives which is why peer review is supposed to be a good system but it has been largely co-opted by profit and politics.

Please share with us these "rigorous" studies that you are relying on. And please explain what sources of data were miraculously discovered years after the fact that help them fix all the numbers they had wrong.

And can you clarify your argument? Are you saying that they had the numbers wrong in the 1930s due to inaccurate contemporaneous data but were able to fix it years later? Or are you saying that the correct numbers (the "rigorous" studies) were available but that people like Korherr, Linfield, Kohn, etc were too stupid to be aware of them?

[ConfusedJew]

Please share with us these "rigorous" studies that you are relying on. And please explain what sources of data were miraculously discovered years after the fact that help them fix all the numbers they had wrong.

And can you clarify your argument? Are you saying that they had the numbers wrong in the 1930s due to inaccurate contemporaneous data but were able to fix it years later? Or are you saying that the correct numbers (the "rigorous" studies) were available but that people like Korherr, Linfield, Kohn, etc were too stupid to be aware of them?

I'll move forward with this when we agree on some important basics.

I don't know if any of those people were stupid or not. Science and history tends to progress with time although there short setbacks.

And keep in mind, you can't and shouldn't expect to see any perfect statistical or historical study. But over time, as humans develop better techniques and gather better information, their studies get better and better.

Depending on how much effort this will take, if you are intellectually honest, we can look at that earlier studies and compare them to later studies to find out why the later and more rigorous ones are more reliable and credible. It requires the ability to think critical about evidence and research and analysis methods but if you can do that then we can do some independent meta-research.

I am too tired of arguing with people here about unimportant things so I want to ensure that we have a shared understanding before I invest more time into this exercise.