Undeserved reply to CJ on population statistics

[Nessie]

A Jew who changes their identity after the war, would not be able to prove they had lived at a certain property, until they were arrested, transported to camps and forced to work. Therefore, they would not be able to claim any compensation.

Thanks for further explaining any lack of reparations claims as evidence of 'missing Jews' (I think bombsaway or CJ tried that one). Open and shut.

Also, per some quick Googling and AI questions: the processes and means to claim so-called 'reparations' evolved over time and didn't even begin at all until the 1950s, when its strictness was a deterrent for many applicants. Only decades later did testimony alone become sufficient.

Overall, the situation regarding reparations was complex and so isn't especially useful in proving or disproving survival.

IOW, no so-called revisionist has found millions of Jews who had been to an AR camp, Chelmno, an A-B Krema, Maly Trostenets, Semlin, Ponary, Rumbula or other mass killing site. Therefore, it is not a useful tool for evidencing the Holocaust as a hoax. You are so see-through!

You were trying to argue Jews had an advantage to changing identify. I pointed out a massive disadvantage.

[Nessie]

Your claim of 'missing Jews' as evidence of those 'Holocausted' is smoke and mirrors, and a weak distraction from your inability to show millions of Jewish corpses or a murder weapon, despite these being a typical requirement in murder investigations, especially for not just one but a series (alleged millions) of murders.

That is a barefaced lie. Large areas of cremated remains and numerous mass grave sites have been identified, all across Eastern Europe, along with details of the murder weapon. That the Nazis destroyed much of that evidence, is, in itself, evidence that a crime was committed. Numerous investigations, by numerous countries across Europe, have determined mass murder was committed, despite Nazi attempts to destroy evidence.

Nessie, please stop smoking crack. Also, please clarify what the bolded green portion above means to you. What does 'have been identified' mean to you, exactly?

• Who did the 'identifying'?
• Was it Mr. Bean?
• Was whoever did this 'identifying' at least as credible a source as Mr. Bean?
• ...or was it the Soviet Union (Stalin) and spiteful Jewish 'witnesses'?

In addition to millions of other documents across a wide range of policies, the Germans destroyed files about their program of dispossessing Jews as well, yet some contemporary wartime documents have evidently survived about this, as have documents for T-4, forced labor initiatives, and the Final Solution policy as one of literal [non-Holocaust] evacuation/resettlement. Somehow, the Nazis destroyed any hint of a 'Holocaust' but failed to destroy records for all the other initiatives they tried covering up. How convenient for you.

So, Nessie, again: did Mr. Bean 'identify' the graves "all across Eastern Europe"? Did Sasquatch 'identify' them? Where is this 'identification'? Is it in the room with us, now?


bean.jpg

I am not going to go far off topic, so historians and archaeologists have identified the mass graves sites, using witness and physical evidence. Many of the witnesses were local people to the mass death sites. The Nazis also left evidence, such as the call to Jews to gather at Babi Yar.

The Nazis failed to destroy all the documents for T4, the Einsatzgruppen, 14f13, AR and the Final Solution. You are being dishonest, suggesting that they managed to destroy all the Holocaust documentation. But you think they would successfully destroy all documents relating to millions of Jews still alive in 1944-5.

[ConfusedJew]

That isn't what happened and it appears you've dodged a comprehensive response yet again.

This just shows how unserious you are. It is exactly what happened.

What's the possible tally for each of these? Can we average, say, just shy of a million or so for each? That puts us right up against '6 million', CluelessJew. Oy vey...

[Callafangers]

That isn't what happened and it appears you've dodged a comprehensive response yet again.

This just shows how unserious you are. It is exactly what happened.

Wow, you're correct again! Yes, you dodging a comprehensive response is exactly what happened.

You forget that the burden of proof is yours, not mine. You have to prove they were killed -- to show otherwise is not a requisite for my position to be upheld. Your accusation necessitates that you prove beyond reasonable doubt that these Jews were killed. And gentle, reasonable doubt is all I have applied here, yet it causes your entire house of cards to crumble.

"Gee, these vague statistics could be interpreted to suggest more missing Jews than I'd expect from non-Holocaust causes" is NOT proof.

My burden is fully met (simply acknowledging the insufficiency of your claims/evidence); yours remains embarrassingly wide-open, despite decades of political threats and persecution of those who disagree with you.

An accusation from you of anyone being "unserious" is hilarious, taken as a compliment.

[TlsMS93]

Called to gather at Babi Yar is?

[Callafangers]

Called to gather at Babi Yar is?

[ConfusedJew]

You forget that the burden of proof is yours, not mine. You have to prove they were killed -- to show otherwise is not a requisite for my position to be upheld. Your accusation necessitates that you prove beyond reasonable doubt that these Jews were killed. And gentle, reasonable doubt is all I have applied here, yet it causes your entire house of cards to crumble.

Why is the burden of proof on me?

The overwhelming majority of the world agrees and agrees that so many different kinds of evidence prove that the Holocaust did happen.

The burden of proof is on me in order to do what exactly?

In law, the burden of proof requires one party to show enough evidence to qualify for a specific legal action. That's not relevant here.

Reasonable doubt is a legal standard only relevant in criminal cases. Do you even know what you are saying or what kind of appeals you are making?

[Callafangers]

You forget that the burden of proof is yours, not mine. You have to prove they were killed -- to show otherwise is not a requisite for my position to be upheld. Your accusation necessitates that you prove beyond reasonable doubt that these Jews were killed. And gentle, reasonable doubt is all I have applied here, yet it causes your entire house of cards to crumble.

Why is the burden of proof on me?

The overwhelming majority of the world agrees and agrees that so many different kinds of evidence prove that the Holocaust did happen.

The burden of proof is on me in order to do what exactly?

In law, the burden of proof requires one party to show enough evidence to qualify for a specific legal action. That's not relevant here.

Reasonable doubt is a legal standard only relevant in criminal cases. Do you even know what you are saying or what kind of appeals you are making?

The burden of proof is upon the person making the accusation. The 'overwhelming majority of the world' agreeing on anything whatsoever is totally irrelevant to the question of what is true or false, given that people believe things that are not necessarily true for a variety of reasons.

Proof is a matter of evidence and valid interpretation, using forms of logic which there is a general consensus about (deduction, induction). It's as simple as presenting evidence which, through valid interpretation leading to sound conclusions, makes a compelling case for your position. Your reference to what a 'majority of the world' believe is invalidated by the propaganda, power imbalances, censorship, political/legal persecution, etc., which indisputably and strongly tilt the tables against a fair and open assessment and debate on this topic. None of these synthetic conditions change the essential truth that proof matters for anyone making an accusation, and this is proof you do not have.

If you have it, show it here, otherwise revisionists will keep doing the work to dismantle and humiliate the lies (and liars) you represent.

[ConfusedJew]

You are amusingly using AI to try and defend yourself, but I'm not the one making an accusation. You are accusing the vast majority of historians of scamming the public, or at least terribly misleading them, and I just disagree with you.

The fact that you accuse me of "lying" and admit that you are trying to "humiliate" me shows not only that you have serious emotion tied into this which negatively affects judgment, but you can't prove that I'm lying, which I'm not.

[Callafangers]

You are amusingly using AI to try and defend yourself, but I'm not the one making an accusation. You are accusing the vast majority of historians of scamming the public, or at least terribly misleading them, and I just disagree with you.

The fact that you accuse me of "lying" and admit that you are trying to "humiliate" me shows not only that you have serious emotion tied into this which negatively affects judgment, but you can't prove that I'm lying, which I'm not.

No, you fuck. What I wrote was 100% my own, you're projecting here (add it to your list of 'tactics').

You constantly lie, CJ, it's been documented since your earliest days here. You presented yourself as truly 'open-minded and curious', then immediately started spamming AI output to defend your tribe.

Just embrace what you are at this point, no one believes otherwise.

[Stubble]

Rather than try to show vague statistics, which were revised post war, and 'just happen' to support the number 6,000,000, if you squint and don't look too closely, coincidentally, of course, how about showing us who met their demise where?

That's probably the best way.

If you could provide names, that would help. I'd prefer a list free of family pets...

(Unironically, a man added his dog to the yad vashim 'holocaust victims database', which also contains many multiple entries and a host of other problems)

Note: seriously, how the fuck is it still not known who is missing? 80+ years and no one even knows who is missing? What in the fuck kind of shit is that?

[Archie]

Please go back to the population statistics discussion. You are accusing me of being disruptive which is BS.

I left a lengthy response for Archie and I am waiting for that.

To avoid wasting time, many historians have made many efforts to estimate the casualty counts. Can we agree not to waste time by focusing on the earliest, least rigorous, and least reliable methods?

To save time, it is best if we find the best methods first and then drill down on that.

I was waiting for you. I responded to your first point, and I don't think I got a response from you. I thought it would be wiser to focus on this one very basic point rather than try to resolve all the points at once.

It's honestly not clear what point you are trying to make here. You ignored the point that many independent sources roughly confirm the same thing.

I think my post is quite clear. You argued:

1) That there was a "consensus" and agreement on the prewar figure of 16.6M.
2) That the variation in estimates was small, "far less" than a million.

I showed you that this is false. And I "ignored" your point about "independent sources alll confirming the same thing" because it is false.

In your reply, you simply said that the contradictory figures don't count, for undisclosed, arbitrary reasons (the real reason = they disprove your argument).

There was no "consensus" on the prewar figures BEFORE THE WAR. It was only AFTER the war that they "harmonized" the figures to be "consistent."

CJ has still not addressed this. He claims that there was absolute agreement on the prewar figure of 16.6M which is simply not true. Many Jewish sources and reference works estimated a world population around a million lower than CJ's "consensus" figure. In general, he is greatly underestimating the difficulty of counting and Jews and is greatly overconfident in the reliability of the stats.

Here is what Korherr said in his report for Himmler.

Statistical Analysis of Jewry

World

The total Jewish population of the world was estimated to be between 15 and 18 million in the last decade, sometimes at over 20 million. The Statistische Reichsamt (German Bureau of Statistics) estimated the total Jewish population of the world at 17 million in 1937.

Does this sound like the number was known with absolute certainty? And that's for the prewar number which should be relatively easy. The statistical difficulties would obviously be much greater in the aftermath of the war.

[ConfusedJew]

Why would the statistical difficulties be greater after the war for pre-war figures? It's clearly the opposite.

Historians’ interpretation of those censuses gets more accurate over time as archives open up, giving access to raw census tables rather than summaries. Scholars cross-checked census numbers against other records. Demographic methods improve, allowing corrections for undercounts, misclassification, or regional inconsistencies.

You are demonstrating that you don't understand how actual historical revisionism works.

Also referencing a single report that fits your narrative as the sole credible authority is the definition of cherry picking.

[ConfusedJew]

No, you fuck. What I wrote was 100% my own, you're projecting here (add it to your list of 'tactics').

If you wrote it yourself, you certainly don't practice it.

[ConfusedJew]

(Unironically, a man added his dog to the yad vashim 'holocaust victims database', which also contains many multiple entries and a host of other problems)

Don't see any evidence that this is true. Some of the stuff that you guys argue is based in facts, wrongly interpreted, but a lot is simply not true. I'm not accusing you of lying, just not being very discerning.