How much help did the Nazis get?

[Nessie]

There is a misconception that the Nazis and Germany were solely responsible for the Holocaust. In fact, they had a lot of assistance, for example;

- indirectly, by the British, who limited the opportunities for Jews to escape, leading to their arrest.
- directly by the Dutch, whose civil service and police provided a lot of assistance in identifying, registering and arresting Jews.
- actively by the Latvians, whose military joined with the Einsatzgruppen shooting Jews
- independently by the Romanians, who ran their own Holocaust, shooting their Jewish citizens.

Only Denmark and Finland can be said to have not cooperated, with the Danish Jews escaping en masse to Sweden in 1943 and the Finnish, with few exceptions, refusing to identify, arrest and transport its small Jewish population to the camps. Hungary, till 1944, also refused to cooperate, but once the Nazis took command, hundreds of thousands of Hungarian Jews were transported to Auschwitz. France was split, with occupied France having to be more cooperative than Free France.

The European nations like to celebrate heroism and emphasis when it did save Jews. There are many examples of actions whereby Jews were hidden, or assisted to flee. But that covers a side that is rarely acknowledged, whereby anti-Semitism resulted in widespread cooperation.

Assistance came in the form of soldiers joining in the killings, civil servants processing the bureaucracy around the registration process, police making arrests and railway companies transporting people. Businesses could access Jewish slave labour. Local people could occupy the now empty Jewish houses and farms and take over businesses. There was widespread looting of Jewish property.

So-called revisionists never acknowledge that the Nazis had a lot of help, because that help explains how, logistically, they were able to identify, arrest, transport, imprison and murder millions of Jews during WWII.

[TlsMS93]

The deportation of Jews from Western and Southern Europe was a complete failure based on the numbers they believed were in those countries via Wannsee and what they actually extracted from there. Less than 10% of France was deported by this count, and the Vichy government worked hard to prevent even Jews who were exiled or naturalized only in the 1920s from being deported.

Even worse is the material contribution these countries made to Action 1005. How many of these countries sent timber to the Reinhardt camps and occupied Soviet territory (or used other tools of destruction like antimatter here?). Where is the documentation? Did Blobel swallow the papers?

[Nessie]

The deportation of Jews from Western and Southern Europe was a complete failure based on the numbers they believed were in those countries via Wannsee and what they actually extracted from there. Less than 10% of France was deported by this count, and the Vichy government worked hard to prevent even Jews who were exiled or naturalized only in the 1920s from being deported.

Around 75,000 French Jews died, still a significant number.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/ ... 180967160/

"...as more archival material has come to light, historians have gradually come to see the collaborators as willing participants in the Holocaust. Before the Nazis ever demanded the Vichy government participate in anti-Semitic policies, the French had enacted policies that removed Jews from civil service and began seizing Jewish property."

Even worse is the material contribution these countries made to Action 1005. How many of these countries sent timber to the Reinhardt camps and occupied Soviet territory (or used other tools of destruction like antimatter here?). Where is the documentation? Did Blobel swallow the papers?

http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org ... speak.html

"I went to Sobibor together with Lorenz Hackenholt, who was at that time in Treblinka. First of all, I went with Hackenholt to a sawmill near Warsaw. There Hackenholt ordered a big consignment of wood for reconstruction in Sobibor."

Polish cooperation with the Nazis was different, due to the ending of Poland as a nation and the total takeover by the Nazis of its administration. Polish labourers were often forced labourers, with little opportunity to not cooperate.

[TlsMS93]

If, for you, "not returned" means "dead," what can I do?

As if the French had any authority to deny anything, and yet Hitler didn't apply additional pressure because maintaining good relations with Vichy was more important to him than the alleged extermination of the Jews.

Poles? I want to know what material contribution occupied Europe provided for the logistics of destroying those 6 million Jews? It's as if Germany were a China, rich in natural and human resources for this task.

[Nessie]

If, for you, "not returned" means "dead," what can I do?

As if the French had any authority to deny anything, and yet Hitler didn't apply additional pressure because maintaining good relations with Vichy was more important to him than the alleged extermination of the Jews.

There are French eyewitnesses to the gassings. What happened in France, was repeated, to one extent or another, all over Europe. The more cooperative a country was, and the more of its Jewish citizens who were arrested, the more never survived to the end of the war. Hence, the Netherlands had a very high death rate and Denmark a low one.

Poles? I want to know what material contribution occupied Europe provided for the logistics of destroying those 6 million Jews? It's as if Germany were a China, rich in natural and human resources for this task.

The main assistance provided, by many countries, was in the identifying, arresting and transporting Jews. Latvia, Lithuania, Serbia, Ukraine and Romania were active participants, who joined with the Nazis in killing their Jewish citizens.

[TlsMS93]

From Italy and Hungary only when those countries were occupied. In fact, there was no collaboration whatsoever, as no orders to kill Jews were given to them. The Jews conscripted for forced labor were, like many gentiles from the occupied countries, such as the 600,000 French workers conscripted and also sent by train.

[csuperman97]

There are French eyewitnesses to the gassings. What happened in France, was repeated, to one extent or another, all over Europe. The more cooperative a country was, and the more of its Jewish citizens who were arrested, the more never survived to the end of the war. Hence, the Netherlands had a very high death rate and Denmark a low one.

By "gassings," do you mean saving people's lives using novel methods of hygiene? Do you mean using Zyklon B to stop the spread of typhus through the camps? Yes, there were many eyewitnesses to this.

[Nessie]

From Italy and Hungary only when those countries were occupied. In fact, there was no collaboration whatsoever, as no orders to kill Jews were given to them. The Jews conscripted for forced labor were, like many gentiles from the occupied countries, such as the 600,000 French workers conscripted and also sent by train.

Yes, it took occupation, before some countries cooperated. But, they still cooperated, and that provided the Nazis with the opportunity to arrest and transport millions of Jews. Conversely, Nazi occupation provided some countries with the opportunity to kill their Jewish citizens.

Cooperation was often patchy, such as in Bulgaria, when Bulgarian Jews were protected, but Jews in territory Bulgaria occupied were arrested and transported, primarily to TII.

[TlsMS93]

The problem you suggest is that they cooperated in getting themselves killed—that's your thesis. Gentiles were deported for forced labor as well, 600,000 in France alone. So your point only makes sense to those who believe in the Holocaust, which the overwhelming majority here don't. The laws of war allowed the occupying country to requisition laborers from the occupied population, so what are you complaining about?

[Nessie]

The problem you suggest is that they cooperated in getting themselves killed—that's your thesis. Gentiles were deported for forced labor as well, 600,000 in France alone. So your point only makes sense to those who believe in the Holocaust, which the overwhelming majority here don't. The laws of war allowed the occupying country to requisition laborers from the occupied population, so what are you complaining about?

You are trying to take this thread off topic. The topic is how much assistance the Nazis were given, by the countries they occupied or were aligned to, in enforcing their policies towards Jewish citizens. The Nuremberg Race Laws required the identification and registering of Jews. Property would be confiscated and the people transported to camps, or ghettos.

Jews who were arrested had a very low survival rate, hence a proportionately high number of Dutch Jews did not return after the war, whereas very few Danes were arrested, so they did have a high number return, after the war. The more assistance the Nazis got, the more Jews died.

That means the so-called revisionist trope of suggesting the Holocaust was all down to the Nazis and Germany is incorrect. There was also responsibility across Europe. If it was a hoax, it needs every country in Europe to admit to something they did not do.

[TlsMS93]

First, it is necessary to prove mass murder and this has not yet been done, so this topic is pure pretension on your part to claim that countries participated in this by registering and deporting their Jews, whether they died or were killed is quite different.

[Nessie]

First, it is necessary to prove mass murder and this has not yet been done, so this topic is pure pretension on your part to claim that countries participated in this by registering and deporting their Jews, whether they died or were killed is quite different.

Do you deny that the Nazis enacted the Nuremberg Race Laws, which they then imposed on the countries they occupied, who then assisted with identification, registration, arrest, and seizure of property?

Do you deny that in Eastern Europe, in particular Latvia, Lithuania, Romania and Serbia, that people there assisted with the arrest and shooting of Jewish citizens?

Do you deny that all over Western and Southern Europe, Jews were arrested, sent to transit camps and then transported to the General Government?

[TlsMS93]

Your topic only makes sense on a pro-Holocaust blog. Why should we compromise and enter into a discussion accepting the reality of the Holocaust and discussing whether countries aided the Germans in this alleged genocide? Why did some communist-controlled countries see Jews occupying prominent or privileged positions and decide to combat them?

I don't deny localized atrocities; Eastern Jews generally became more targeted than Western Jews. Even Jewish prisoners of Western Allies were treated very well. What's not proven is murder aimed at their extermination in general.

[Nessie]

Your topic only makes sense on a pro-Holocaust blog. Why should we compromise and enter into a discussion accepting the reality of the Holocaust and discussing whether countries aided the Germans in this alleged genocide? Why did some communist-controlled countries see Jews occupying prominent or privileged positions and decide to combat them?

I don't deny localized atrocities; Eastern Jews generally became more targeted than Western Jews. Even Jewish prisoners of Western Allies were treated very well. What's not proven is murder aimed at their extermination in general.

IOW, it is a topic you cannot cope with, because so much of what I am discussing, arrests, transports etc, are accepted by so-called revisionists, and by accepting that, you are painting yourself into a corner you cannot get out of.

[TlsMS93]

What's the biggest problem with deportation? Germans were also deported, and that doesn't mean they call it genocide. If you think it's a tragedy, then it was indeed for the Jews. What's the problem with us admitting it? Israel currently doesn't consider deporting Palestinians to the Arab world genocide, as they're suggesting internally.

No one is claiming the Nazis were angels from heaven to liberate humanity, if that's what you think.