The Jews Went to Work? Organization Todt

[Callafangers]

In a thread on the Research & Discussion subforum, here: viewtopic.php?t=477

...Stubble has shared an excellent find (thank you!), one which has had me spend a couple obsessive hours reading through with a great deal of intrigue -- the Organization Todt handbook:

https://archive.org/details/HandbookOfT ... DTOTUK1945

This information expands upon some earlier findings shared by another member of the forum, Nazgul, who to my knowledge first shared a revisionist perspective on the network of Zwangsarbeitslagers fur Juden across former German-occupied territories.

In section IVB on page 387 of the PDF file for the OT Handbook (here: https://archive.org/download/HandbookOf ... K-1945.pdf), we find the description for "Communists, Partisans, Jews, Special Convict Units" (Zwangsarbeiter):

Russians and Spanish communists, Polish and Czech conscripts,
partisans, convicts (German soldiers and foreign civilians),
miscellaneous politically hostile elements (foreign), workers considered
untractable, homosexuals, Jews, part-Jews and state-less individuals
comprised the lowest category, that of Zwangsarbeiter. Ages in this
category are as unlimited as they are in the highest category, that
of the Germans themselves. Russian boys of 12 have been mentioned in
captured OT documents, while those of 14 are taken for granted. The
Germans did not manage to any considerable extent to put their hands
on Russian youths approaching the age of military usefulness outside of
those which were seized in the early stages of the war and have
since matured by three years. This limitation does not however apply
to the Poles, Czechs, etc.

For Jews in France specifically, some are documented becoming conscripted in the later months of the war (PDF, p. 389):

All Jews in France between the ages of 20 to 31 (July 1943) and all Jews of 1924 Class (June 1944) were assigned to the OT.

On the same page, we are reminded of the Hungarian Jews sent into Germany:

A mass levy of 150,000 Hungarian Jews was made in August 1944. This levy had probably been proceeded by similar forcible levies, mainly recruited from Central Europe and the Balkans.

The reason we know with a bit more clarity what happened in France and Germany than, say, Ostland or Ukraine is (PDF, p. 123):

...there were practically no OBLs in Russia and consequently no stabilised administrative HQ...

No administration means very few records, simply put. So, "where are the Jews"? Well, if they were working in the East, we now have further clarification for why the records are so limited.

But what about the non-working Jews? Here is how Einsatzgruppen West (EGW; oversight in France, Belgium and the Netherlands) addressed this (PDF, p. 333):

Jewish workers are paid according to the following circular,
published by EGW:

"Wages for Jewish workers may be granted according to the
"Arbeitsbedingungen des Militarbefehlhabers" (Terms for labor set
down by the Military Commander). Obey may be employed in line with
the output principle whereby their efficiency rating must be severely
considered. Only wages for work actually performed are to be
granted. No claims can be made for continuance of payments in case
of illness. Extra pay for overtime., night work, work on Sundays or
holidays is not authorized. Donations in form of premiums of any
description are prohibited. Lodging in closed camps and messing are
free, but 12 francs per day are retained for costs of messing.
In addition % of the wages are retained as taxes. Family allowances
are not authorized. Social insurances of any kind are not in effect
for Jewish workers, but private insurance is permissible. For the
defrayal of personal needs, pocket money of 20 francs per day is
deducted from the wages and paid out in cash. In case of inferior output
of work, deduction of pocket money from the wages may be denied.
The balance of the wages is transferred by the firm to the family
of the Jewish worker."

This late-war document indicates the family of working Jews (i.e. Jews who are not working) would sometimes be receiving wages for the working Jew.

But was it a lot of Jews? Or just a few? The table on p. 460 of the PDF indicates a total of ~65,000 forced laborers between France and Poland combined, and reinforced that "a majority of forced labour are Jews, 'Communists', and penal units". Likewise, we see on the following page that of ~250,000 forced laborers in Germany, they are reportedly of the same composition (with Jews as prominent). Since we know well-over half of the forced laborers mentioned are Jews in the case of Germany by this time (includes the ~150,000 Hungarian Jews), we can reasonably infer that perhaps up to half of the ~65,000 in France and Poland may also be Jewish. But then we have to factor in their families... Let's assume they had modestly-sized families of five (5) for the early 20th century. We might say (for France + Poland):

30,000 x 5 = 150,000 Jews

Another chip off the ol' 6 million?

Does it not follow that Hungarian Jews would also have their families kept alive? We know with certainty that the incessant gassing-cremation was not occurring, per photographs shown and discussed in Mattogno's recent work (here: https://holocausthandbooks.com/wp-conte ... 1-posl.pdf), and we also know that at least 86 camps explicitly including Jewish children opened up in Austria after mid-1944 (see: viewtopic.php?p=9325&sid=22161b181b9995 ... 10bb#p9325). Overall, it seems we can reasonably count Hungarian Jews as among the living (and being globally dispersed) by war's end, for the most part.

But what about Jews in the Ostland and Ukraine? As already mentioned, with such fragmented administration in the Eastern territories, very little is known, or even can be known. Even for Western camps, quantifying information is vague (PDF, p. 279):

Numbered worker detachments are, however, very rarely identified in captured documents, and systematic records are apparently kept not below EG level, if kept at all.

That said, quite a bit of information on most other categories of information about these camps has already been gathered on this forum. Here is some comprehensive data on the Zwangsarbeitslagers for Jews, specifically (hover over any map marker to see details, including open-closing dates -- green markers represent multiple camps at one location, red are single-camp sites):

https://www.mapcustomizer.com/map/Zwang ... ndUkraine7

The source data for the map above is archived here:

Zwangsarbeitslager for Jews in "Reichskommissariat Ostland": https://archive.is/Y1IUO

And here for Austria, the General Government, and other locations:

Zwangsarbeitslager for Jews in Österreich: https://archive.is/Gd3fe
Zwangsarbeitslager for Jews in Various Locations (A-G): https://archive.is/fTYhS
Zwangsarbeitslager for Jews in Various Locations (G-L): https://archive.is/6dh7h
Zwangsarbeitslager for Jews in Various Locations (L-S): https://archive.is/IFhJj
Zwangsarbeitslager for Jews in Various Locations (S-Z): https://archive.is/MPVL5

Of particular interest are the closing dates -- many of these camps have closing dates very late in the war or no known closing date at all. If closing dates are not known, this by default suggests they may have remained open.

[EDIT: Worth also noting that these lists of labor camps are certainly incomplete -- the total number could be much greater.]

For the Zwangarbeitslagers in the General Government, I break them down, here:

[Total known Jewish labor camps in each GG district:]

Silesia = 213
Reichsgau Wartheland = 205
District Galicia = 164
District Lublin = 126
District Radom = 93
District Krakow = 84
District Warsaw = 72
Reichsgebiet = 40
District Bialystok = 7
Reichsgau Sudetenland = 17
Reichsgau Danzig-Westpreußen = 8
Reichsgau Oberdonau = 1

What is not known, for the most part, is the size of these camps. There are at least some confirmed to have had inmates numbering in the thousands but others were as low as in the dozens or hundreds.

Of the 1,030 total, here is some of the data which I found most important:

459 of these entries indicate the camp closing date is only assumed based on the time of its "last mention" ("letzte Erwähnung")
204 were reported (or assumed) closed no earlier than sometime in 1944 (with even mid-to-late 1944 not being uncommon)
20 were reported closed in 1945
About 10-15% have no known closing date at all
346 of the 1,030 entries have no map location due to missing/insufficient information (many others have only an approximate location)

[This shows that many Jewish labor camps likely remained open long after 'extermination' was allegedly in full-swing, contradicting the narrative.]

From the OT Handbook, we find that the personal camps where Jewish workers were kept is generally fairly close to the actual work site (PDF, p. 283):

Personal Lager (Camps) or Lager, as they are commonly called,
are situated as near to construction sites as is found practicable,
the furthest distance on record in the West, being twenty miles.
Efforts are made to keep men of the same nationality together.
Thus barracks housing men of one nationality form "centres", e.g.,
Centre francais, in charge of a Hilfslagerfuhrer (see para. 118
vi. above). Worker detachments assigned to a particular OT-firm
are similarly billeted together as far as possible. This dual
arrangement does not ordinarily involve complications, inasmuch
as foreign worker detachments are assigned to particular firms
not only on the basis of their occupational skill and specialty
(or lack of either) but also on the basis of race and nationality.
Thus, for example, certain firms are considered to be peculiarly
equipped to employ Jewish workers.
The barracks are standardised in several types and contain
accommodations for from 78 to about 150 men. The average camp
contains accommodations for about 500 men. Camps holding more than
2,000 are considered impractical.

The focus of these reports is upon the workforce strength (number of men), so it is difficult to confirm whether family members were kept on-site as among the "accommodations" mentioned here (for working men), or if families were instead kept off-site at other facilities more easily guarded (those unfit for work being less of a threat, militarily).

As far as the administration of these camps for evacuated Jews and the guards involved, this OT Handbook reveals it as many of us have argued for the last couple years: many of the guards would be called to the front, with few surviving the war. Those who did survive will have seen only mundane Jewish labor activities and were not wishing to self-incriminate (assuming any atrocities), in any case. Regarding the composition of camp guards (p. 195):

The task of enforcing law and order in the OT Camps and building sites lies
chiefly in the hands of the Schutzkommando, also known by the older
name of Schutzkorps (both abbreviated SK). The staff of the
Schutzkommando, called Schutzkommandofuhrung, is headed by a
Schutzkommandofuhrer, and is attached to the section Frontfuhrung,
as the Legal and Disciplinary Sub-section discussed above.
The individual SK units are administered at OBL level; their
duties comprise the guarding of construction sites, warehouses,
machines, explosives, fuel dumps, motor vehicle parks, material
equipment and food depots, and personnel camps within their respective
OBL sectors. They are also employed in convoying prisoners, personnel
and material. In convoys one SK man is theoretically assigned to
guard 20 workers; in the case of "untrustworthy" personnel, such
as returned fugitives, the TO/WE calls for one SK man to ten "guarded"
personnel. Due to the shortage of SK men, the actual proportion
is about one third of TO/WE requirements. In the Balkans, Poland
and Russia, the SK units had to be perpetually on the alert against
partisan raids and were often fortified into Stutzpunkte (Strong Points),
By 1943 a critical shortage of SK men was caused by the Wehrmacht's
drive to find suitable personnel for its armed forces. This weeding-
out process left in SK only those Germans who were physically unfit
for active military service. (One SK Identity Book discloses under
the heading "identifying scars or wounds", "right arm amputated").
The resulting shortage of personnel forced the SK organization
to look for replacements among the foreign groups. In the EGW,
for instance, most of the foreign SK personnel was recruited from
among the French, Dutch and Flemish nationals, and came from the
ranks of the collaborationists.

Overall, this information from the Organization Todt (OT) Handbook helps shed further light on the fate of Jews during WW2 and the evidence of their persistence in great numbers in these Eastern territories, rather than being consumed by 'gassing' and buried at property-sorting camps (Reinhardt camps) per the official 'Holocaust' narrative.

[Nessie]

Evidence of Jews working needs chronological context. Finding hundreds of thousands of Jews working in 1943, does not mean they lived to 1945. For example, this link to a list of camps;

https://archive.is/Y1IUO

A simple search for "1945" finds one reference, in the title "List of national socialist camps and detention sites 1933 - 1945
Germany - A Memorial"

Not one single camp is listed as being operational in 1945. They all closed in 1943 or 1944. The last camp closure was September 1944. So, where were all the Jews after then, as they were clearly not in any of those camps?

[Callafangers]

Evidence of Jews working needs chronological context. Finding hundreds of thousands of Jews working in 1943, does not mean they lived to 1945. For example, this link to a list of camps;

https://archive.is/Y1IUO

A simple search for "1945" finds one reference, in the title "List of national socialist camps and detention sites 1933 - 1945
Germany - A Memorial"

Not one single camp is listed as being operational in 1945. They all closed in 1943 or 1944. The last camp closure was September 1944. So, where were all the Jews after then, as they were clearly not in any of those camps?

You said this before, I already responded: viewtopic.php?p=9931#p9931

[For the GG, alone:] We count at least ~224 camps for which its documented they remained open into 1944-45. And there are another 300 or so which are totally uncertain insofar as closing date. Others still aren't even located with any precision, and many more are totally unknown.

[Callafangers]

Wait, Nessie, I think I finally understand what you're complaining about. You seem to be interpreting "Last Mention:" to mean "Confirmed Closed On:". I hope this clears things up for you:

LastMention.jpg (129.52 KiB) Viewed 104 times

[Callafangers]

Another interesting segment from the OT Handbook PDF, p. 261:

If all the manpower which worked for the OT directly or
indirectly, in the early part of 1943, is calculated, the figure
may well reach the neighbourhood of two million, mostly located
outside the Reich. In the winter of 1944/45, before the current
Allied advances into Germany, it is estimated to have dropped to
about one million, mostly inside the Reich. A further step in
regimenting manpower was taken in March 1944 when all foreign
labour was partitioned into units of 20 men called "Kolonnen",
units of about 125 called "Hundertschaften" or "Bereitschaften",
and - sometimes - into units of 250 called "Abteilungen". These
formed the vast bulk of OT labour and included the Zwangsarbeiter
(Forced Labour), mostly Russians and Jews (See IIIBb119-122). The
term Bautrupps which had ceased to exist after the dissolution of
the early German construction detachments, was revived some weeks
before D-day (See IAI3 and XB16) .

[Nessie]

Evidence of Jews working needs chronological context. Finding hundreds of thousands of Jews working in 1943, does not mean they lived to 1945. For example, this link to a list of camps;

https://archive.is/Y1IUO

A simple search for "1945" finds one reference, in the title "List of national socialist camps and detention sites 1933 - 1945
Germany - A Memorial"

Not one single camp is listed as being operational in 1945. They all closed in 1943 or 1944. The last camp closure was September 1944. So, where were all the Jews after then, as they were clearly not in any of those camps?

You said this before, I already responded: viewtopic.php?p=9931#p9931

[For the GG, alone:] We count at least ~224 camps for which its documented they remained open into 1944-45. And there are another 300 or so which are totally uncertain insofar as closing date. Others still aren't even located with any precision, and many more are totally unknown.

Why did you include a list of camps that all closed by September 1944? Was it because you wanted to give the impression there were far more camps than in reality?

Did you ever produce a list of the Jewish populations of the at least 224 camps that you suggest were still open? You admit when you say "open into 1944-5" that not all of them were still open in 1945, and crucially open when the war ended and Jews could be liberated. Can you provide any details about the camp population of Jews when the war ended in May 1945?

[Callafangers]

Why did you include a list of camps that all closed by September 1944? Was it because you wanted to give the impression there were far more camps than in reality?

Did you ever produce a list of the Jewish populations of the at least 224 camps that you suggest were still open? You admit when you say "open into 1944-5" that not all of them were still open in 1945, and crucially open when the war ended and Jews could be liberated. Can you provide any details about the camp population of Jews when the war ended in May 1945?

Nessie, you seem very confused, it is probably all of the seething you are doing toward members in other threads here... Please calm down so you can think more clearly.

Here is what I have actually presented:

• Support for my interpretation that a lack of documentation in the Eastern territories is based upon a lack of OBL administrative units -- a fact.
• A list of hundreds of camps for which you have no evidence actually closed (note that some camps on that list have actual closing dates -- the hundreds I mention have only a "Last Mentions" as the chaos of war stifled and dampened communication efforts).

I hope this clears things up for you, Nessie. Get some rest.

[Wahrheitssucher]

Why did you include a list of camps that all closed by September 1944? Was it because you wanted to give the impression there were far more camps than in reality?

Did you ever produce a list of the Jewish populations of the at least 224 camps that you suggest were still open? You admit when you say "open into 1944-5" that not all of them were still open in 1945, and crucially open when the war ended and Jews could be liberated. Can you provide any details about the camp population of Jews when the war ended in May 1945?

Nessie, you seem very confused, it is probably all of the seething you are doing toward members in other threads here... Please calm down so you can think more clearly.

Here is what I have actually presented:

• Support for my interpretation that a lack of documentation in the Eastern territories is based upon a lack of OBL administrative units -- a fact.
• A list of hundreds of camps for which you have no evidence actually closed (note that some camps on that list have actual closing dates -- the hundreds I mention have only a "Last Mentions" as the chaos of war stifled and dampened communication efforts).

I hope this clears things up for you, Nessie. Get some rest.

Great research, guys.

I suspect the intellectually-challenged one is freaking out because all those camps are ‘in the East’ direction, relative from Germany.
That these places existed — many with unknown closing dates — and contained transported labouring jews “in the East”, rather demolishes the main complaint which doofus-deniers of revisionist research, repetitively resort to.

[Nessie]

Why did you include a list of camps that all closed by September 1944? Was it because you wanted to give the impression there were far more camps than in reality?

Did you ever produce a list of the Jewish populations of the at least 224 camps that you suggest were still open? You admit when you say "open into 1944-5" that not all of them were still open in 1945, and crucially open when the war ended and Jews could be liberated. Can you provide any details about the camp population of Jews when the war ended in May 1945?

Nessie, you seem very confused, it is probably all of the seething you are doing toward members in other threads here... Please calm down so you can think more clearly.

Here is what I have actually presented:

• Support for my interpretation that a lack of documentation in the Eastern territories is based upon a lack of OBL administrative units -- a fact.
• A list of hundreds of camps for which you have no evidence actually closed (note that some camps on that list have actual closing dates -- the hundreds I mention have only a "Last Mentions" as the chaos of war stifled and dampened communication efforts).

I hope this clears things up for you, Nessie. Get some rest.

What would clear this up, would be for you to stop posting irrelevant information and for you start posting evidence of what camps were open until liberation and how many Jews were liberated.

Your suggestion is that Organisation Todt work camps is where millions of Jews saw out the war. There is no point to you wasting time on 1943 populations. The first liberations were later in 1944, by the Soviets, so start there.

https://muse.jhu.edu/pub/1/article/854046/pdf

"At its peak, it employed an estimated 1.5 to 2 million European laborers. According to Charles Dick's important book, 185,000 people died while working for the OT"

[Nessie]

...
Great research, guys.

I suspect the intellectually-challenged one is freaking out because all those camps are ‘in the East’ direction, relative from Germany.
That these places existed — many with unknown closing dates — and contained transported labouring jews “in the East”, rather demolishes the main complaint which doofus-deniers of revisionist research, repetitively resort to.

How does a link to camps that had closed before the end of the war, with no detail of Jewish population, evidence millions of Jews resettled in the east?

[SanityCheck]

Wait, Nessie, I think I finally understand what you're complaining about. You seem to be interpreting "Last Mention:" to mean "Confirmed Closed On:". I hope this clears things up for you:


LastMention.jpg

The screenshot about a ZALfJ in Bialystok is quite instructive of the problems with interpreting some of the older 'directories' - the source given is ITS 1979, which is likely available on the Arolsen Archives or in their online library.

Two things stand out, the establishment of the camp on 2 November 1942 and the fact that this was within a POW camp. In fact a transit camp for Jews was established in the vicinity or a section of the POW camp on November 2, 1942, see multiple ghetto entries in USHMM Encyclopedia vol. II, and the regional studies (e.g. Gerlach, Kalkulierte Morde). Yitzhak Arad indicates 10 shtetl-ghettos from the surrounding area were driven to the 'C.C.' or collection camp at Bialystok; the same place; 9,320 Jews were deported from there to Treblinka between November 10 and December 15, 1942.

Stalag 316 when sent to Bialystok (it was in Siedlce and Wolkowysk beforehand) did have work details on the airfield site at Krywliany. The airfield site was captured by Soviet forces on August 21, 1944, and had various Luftwaffe forces stationed there in 1943-44. It's of course possible that an Arbeitskommando or sub-camp of whatever Stalags remained in Bezirk Bialystok was maintained after the hub camp was disbanded, but there's no indication of this yet.

One kicker is that Stalag 316 was disbanded in February 1943, and was seemingly not replaced. It held only 1,673 POWs before disbandment (see the first link, USHMM Encyclopedia vol IV on Wehrmacht camps including POW camps). Other camps in the Bialystok district were also disbanded by early 1943 (see entry for Stalag 324 located near Grodno). At least some of the POW camp spaces were used for other transit camps for Bezirk Bialystok Jews after the mass round up of November 2, 1942 (carried out by an entire police regiment plus the local Gendarmerie and Schutzmannschaften).

The Bialystok ghetto proper was entirely separate to whatever was going on around Krywliany and the airfield; it was liquidated in August 1943 with a final deportation of a few hundred workers held back and interned in the prison going via Stutthof to Auschwitz at the turn of 1943/44.

The Polish encyclopedia of camps (Czeslaw Pilichowski, Obozy hitlerowskie..., 1979) lists Stalag 316 and notes its disbandment in early 1943, also the transit camp noted above (on the grounds of the same Polish Army barracks), and lists no separate ZALfJ orbiting the Bialystok ghetto. It lists two mixed ZALs in Starosielce and Zielona, suburbs/villages under the Bialystok listings, with Starosielce identified as interning only Poles and Belarusians, Zielona interning Poles, Belarusians and Jews. While both were closed only in June-July 1944, there seems to be no good reason to think Zielona was bursting at the seams with Jewish forced labourers who had been held back into 1944 when all other Jews were gone in 1943.

ITS Arolsen's 1979 listing of camps would be based on sources available to it by then; one would need to consult those, starting with the directory to see if any sources were indicated at all, before browsing the now digitised Arolsen Archives to see what pops up. The fact that the separate Polish directory also from 1979 makes no mention of this camp in its own right suggests that there was some misinterpretation or conflation going on. The existence of a German-run airfield at Bialystok-Krywliany, yes, right up to August 1944. The presence of any kind of Jewish workforce then, nope.


Stalag 316
https://muse.jhu.edu/document/4602
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalag_31 ... %82ymstoku
https://www.ww2.dk/Airfields%20-%20Poland.pdf (p.7 of PDF)

Stalag 324 Lososno nr Grodno
https://muse.jhu.edu/document/4609

Grodek Bialostocki, Zabludow, Michalowo ("On November 2, 1942, an SS unit arrived to transfer the Michałowo Jews to a transit camp located on the southern outskirts of Białystok, at the pre-war training grounds of the Polish 10th Cavalry Regiment"),
https://muse.jhu.edu/document/2871
https://muse.jhu.edu/document/2841
https://muse.jhu.edu/document/2822

[Stubble]

EXCELLENT OP Fangers! I'm happy to have shared something not everyone has seen, and I thank you for the name drop. Mr Nazgul has certainly put in a great deal of work and laid a great deal of paving stone along the way.

The 'Handbook: Organization Todt' unfortunately gives us only a sliver of a view into the camp system. It is important to note that conscripted labor was also used by TN and by the German armed forces (for the kitchens, laundry service etc).

One glaring issue I'd like to point out, and that may be getting missed, is what constituted a 'working jew', and just how many there were. 'Eastern labor' in a support capacity in the east was vast, and was composed of men, women, and children down to the age of 4.

The necessity of this labor force is undeniable. These people were manufacturing arms, repairing roads and communications as well as rail ways, they were making sure that food was prepared, they were an indispensable feature of the war effort.

The idea that 'millions of jews' were 'non working' is to me absurd. When you look at the grave space, it is woefully insufficient for the claimed toll.

If I understand correctly, 14f13 was employed for the incurably sick, and partisans were winnowed out and shot.

That is certainly terrible, it was a war however, and people were being killed by partisans and bedspace in hospitals was filling with wounded.

I've still got a lot more ground to cover before I create my post or make an effort to publish anything, but, I did want to share some of my perspective.

Again, GREAT POST.

[Wahrheitssucher]

Wait, Nessie, I think I finally understand what you're complaining about. You seem to be interpreting "Last Mention:" to mean "Confirmed Closed On:". I hope this clears things up for you:

LastMention.jpg

…It's of course possible that an Arbeitskommando or sub-camp — of whatever Stalags remained in Bezirk Bialystok — was maintained after the hub camp was disbanded, but there's no indication of this yet.

…Stalag 316 was disbanded in February 1943, and was seemingly not replaced.

…At least some of the POW camp spaces were used for other transit camps for Bezirk Bialystok Jews after the mass round up of November 2, 1942… [but] …in Starosielce and Zielona, …while both were closed only in June-July 1944, there seems to be no good reason to think Zielona was bursting at the seams with Jewish forced labourers who had been held back into 1944…

…The fact that the separate Polish directory …from 1979 makes no mention of this camp in its own right suggests that there was some misinterpretation or conflation going on. The existence of a German-run airfield at Bialystok-Krywliany, yes, right up to August 1944. The presence of any kind of Jewish workforce then, nope.

OBSERVATIONS:
1. I have retained above just the comments exhibiting a confirmation bias.
Its actually quite mild bias. So congratulations for that. But it’s still displaying a preferred outcome, NOT an impartial winnowing of the facts.

2. What is studiously not being allowed for here by Nick is the possibility of any deliberate destruction of evidence contradicting the emerging ’final solution’-genocide allegation.

We KNOW that we have MULTIPLE, CAST-IRON EVIDENCES of the Allies creating numerous psy-op frauds to convince: a.) the world and b.) the defeated Germans that Hitler, Nazties and the Third Reich was eeeevul to its core. So disallowing for that seems i.) dishonest or ii.) dim.

[Wahrheitssucher]

…One glaring issue I'd like to point out, and that may be getting missed, is what constituted a 'working jew', and just how many there were.
'Eastern labor' in a support capacity in the east was vast, and was composed of men, women, and children down to the age of 4.

The necessity of this labor force is undeniable. These people were manufacturing arms, repairing roads and communications as well as rail ways, they were making sure that food was prepared, they were an indispensable feature of the war effort.

The idea that 'millions of jews' were 'non working' is to me absurd. When you look at the grave space, it is woefully insufficient for the claimed toll.

Good point!

In connection to this, I shall again mention that ‘survivor’ eyewitness (lie-witness?) who lectured for years to impressionable school-kids and whom I met and briefly talked to, [recently mentioned in the flat-earth thread here.

I met him when he came to my small town and gave the same presentation (with slides) twice: once at the school to the 13yr olds and then again to the parents and elder siblings, in the evening (maybe around 19:00).

He was a Polish jew from Lodz who told us how he survived the war with his mother and father. I.e. his whole immediate family survived captivity in numerous camps and shortly after the war ended they left Lodz, Poland and emigrated abroad.
He said in 1944 aged 8 yrs they had been moved to the Lodz ghetto where as a child he said he worked in a factory and got paid.
Later he said he and his mother were separated from his father.
He says they were all three of them in numerous camps.
As I remember it he said he magically made himself look older and so he was selected to work in each camp as he implied working was the only way to avoid being gassed!
He and his mother ended up in Ravensbrück at the war’s end.

Basically, he was a child from 8 to 9 yrs old in a few camps, and worked.

Fo anyone interested, the question I politely put to him publicly at the end of his early evening lecture was this:
“if, as you said, the intention of the NSDAP Third Reich was to exterminate all Jews that came under their control, how do you explain you and your family surviving being in their captivity?”

He appeared to get annoyed by this line of enquiry and with some agitation (anger?) in his voice replied by telling me the number of jews living in Poland before the war and the vastly diminished number after the war was over.
I was just contemplating whether to point out to him that he and his parents were living proof that some of those diminished numbers of Polish Jews weren’t gassed but survived captivity and emigrated, when the convenor abruptly ended the meeting by saying he must be tired and needed to rest after a long day.

[Nessie]

...

Fo anyone interested, the question I politely put to him publicly at the end of his early evening lecture was this:
“if, as you said, the intention of the NSDAP Third Reich was to exterminate all Jews that came under their control, how do you explain you and your family surviving being in their captivity?”

He appeared to get annoyed by this line of enquiry and with some agitation (anger?) in his voice replied by telling me the number of jews living in Poland before the war and the vastly diminished number after the war was over.
I was just contemplating whether to point out to him that he and his parents were living proof that some of those diminished numbers of Polish Jews weren’t gassed but survived captivity and emigrated, when the convenor abruptly ended the meeting by saying he must be tired and needed to rest after a long day.

The answer is, as recorded at Wannsee;

"Under proper guidance, in the course of the final solution the Jews are to be allocated for appropriate labor in the East. Able-bodied Jews, separated according to sex, will be taken in large work columns to these areas for work on roads, in the course of which action doubtless a large portion will be eliminated by natural causes."

Not all Jews were going to be killed. Many were going to be put to work, and they were expected to eventually die naturally. That was in January 1942. By the autumn of 1944, all killings had stopped as the Nazis wanted as many workers, even people previously not considered fit to labour, to work.

Extermination can be by shooting, gassing, or slave labour till death.