Forensic Chemistry

[Nazgul]

Looking at the forensics, without looking at the other evidence, is cherry-picking and poor evidential procedure.

This thread is about "forensics", not your attempt to once again deflect.
You must realise the unknown. For prussian blue to form, the iron content within the bricks is a factor. It must be assumed that the amount of cyanide in each gassing would be similar. The Germans had developed a cyanide dispensing maching used on clothing, which had heating and a forced fan system. Why this was not used instead of the nonsense of guards tossing down Z-b into kula columns is absurd.

[HansHill]

You simply aren't communicating clearly and you are resorting to being disrespectful which is not OK with me. You are making very technical arguments about things that I am familiarizing myself with now. You are assuming that I have very detailed knowledge of this which I don't and very few do.

Confused Jew - your AI output is giving more jibberish which i am going to simply ignore and continue with this line of reasoning. I am also ignoring all pleading to "this is all new to me" - its not my fault you are not reading what any of us (including yourself) are saying. I am treating you like an informed person, deal with it. Speaking of which:

Both Bombsaway and Nessie have arrived to help you clean up this clown show. They are both on "your" side of this and are experienced Holocaust debaters. Both have identified the error you have sleepwalked your way into, and the thread you must adhere to which is mandatory to keep your story together.

Since Nessie has already beaten me to the punch (or started to, at least) despite Bombsaway technically arriving first to aid you, I will address this to Bombsaway:

Bombsaway, since he is not listening to me please explain to Confused Jew why it is necessary for the pellets to remain inside the columns during a gassing and to never leave this enclosure.

Sources:

As quoted above, Shaul Chazan - Gideon Greif - Wir weinten tränenlos, p 237

Additionally:

When some room had been made behind the
door, the corpses were hosed down. This served to neutralize any gas
crystals still lying about, but mainly it was intended to clean the dead
bodies.

Muller - Auschwitz Inferno, p 117

[Wahrheitssucher]

You simply aren't communicating clearly and you are resorting to being disrespectful which is not OK with me.

This is a recurring complaint from CJ whenever CJ realises:
a.) it is way out of its depth and
b.) its empty rhetoric has been exposed.

You are making very technical arguments about things that I am familiarizing myself with now. You are assuming that I have very detailed knowledge of this which I don't and very few do.

Obviously the reality is that this is NOT “very technical” at all.

And if CJ had actually been READING and engaging in genuine discussion, the points being presented for discussion would have been understand days ago.

SALIENT TRUTH:
Pointing out (and expressing astonishment at) this peculiar and astonishing inability by CJ to understand the simple problem of conflicting, contradictory stories and ‘eye-witness’ testimonies is NOT being “disrespectful”.

1. If the ZyklonB pesticide pellets weren’t removed from a chamber having a temperature of between 0° and 15°C, then they would continue to exude invisible, odourless, fatally-poisonous gas into that room for over two hours.
That outgassing of HCN gas could/would kill anyone entering the room without a gas mask within that time period.


Chart showing the rate of outgassing of hydrogen cyanide from the ZyklonB pellets at various temperatures.

So when sonderkommandos claimed they did this they are proved to have been lying.

2. If there really were ‘kula columns’ that had baskets into which the pellets could be inserted then lowered into the room, then withdrawn after 30 minutes by being lifted up again, this WOULD avoid the problem.

But that is NOT what some of the ‘lie-witnesses’ — who claimed to have operated and/or ‘witnessed’ the alleged gassing proceedures — claimed.

CJ is again showing they are a person who:
i.) is not discussing in good faith;
ii.) is arguing from ignorance;
ii.) plus is not able to read and comprehend fairly simple info, when people try to help remove that ignorance.

SUMMARY:
Anyone who has spent anytime at all GENUINELY studying the mass-gassing claims, KNOWS that there are numerous problems with the narrative.
I myself would say that NONE of these problematical points are “very technical” nor particularly difficult to understand.

The problem usually is when someone approaches the actual details with a pre-conceived belief that they have never thought through for themselves. When they are confronted with the facts by revisionists they initially assume defeating them in argument will be easy. They initially approach discussion rather arrogantly, convinced they will be victorious merely because they have gullibly BELIEVED the ‘holocaust’ rhetoric that the evidence will support their blind belief.
Such people will have difficulties.
It’s called ‘cognitive dissonance’.

Here’s a simple, non-technical issue:
there are no discernable ‘holes’ in the ceilings of the claimed ‘gas chambers’ at Birkenau, nor any sign of how the alleged ‘kula columns’ were ever attached to the roofs.

[HansHill]

Obviously the reality is that this is NOT “very technical” at all.

Correct WS. The content requires modest intelligence, but most importantly care and attention to detail, as well as critical thinking. Thankfully two very clear and articulate experts (Rudolf on the Revisionist side, and Green on the Orthodox side) have endeavored to make this material accessible to a layman audience. Both succeeded in this

[bombsaway]

You simply aren't communicating clearly and you are resorting to being disrespectful which is not OK with me. You are making very technical arguments about things that I am familiarizing myself with now. You are assuming that I have very detailed knowledge of this which I don't and very few do.

Confused Jew - your AI output is giving more jibberish which i am going to simply ignore and continue with this line of reasoning. I am also ignoring all pleading to "this is all new to me" - its not my fault you are not reading what any of us (including yourself) are saying. I am treating you like an informed person, deal with it. Speaking of which:

Both Bombsaway and Nessie have arrived to help you clean up this clown show. They are both on "your" side of this and are experienced Holocaust debaters. Both have identified the error you have sleepwalked your way into, and the thread you must adhere to which is mandatory to keep your story together.

Since Nessie has already beaten me to the punch (or started to, at least) despite Bombsaway technically arriving first to aid you, I will address this to Bombsaway:

Bombsaway, since he is not listening to me please explain to Confused Jew why it is necessary for the pellets to remain inside the columns during a gassing and to never leave this enclosure.

Sources:

As quoted above, Shaul Chazan - Gideon Greif - Wir weinten tränenlos, p 237

Additionally:

When some room had been made behind the
door, the corpses were hosed down. This served to neutralize any gas
crystals still lying about, but mainly it was intended to clean the dead
bodies.

Muller - Auschwitz Inferno, p 117

Why do you read such a statement as inferring that all or a large amount of the pellets fell through, rather than a much smaller fraction?

[ConfusedJew]

I think this aspect of the debate should be forked and I'll create a new thread. In this thread, I'd like to continue to discuss why there were residues of cyanide in the non delousing crematoria.

I'll make a new thread to discuss the delivery mechanism of the cyanide since that's not really related to the chemistry.

[ConfusedJew]

Does anybody disagree with anything here? If we start to go too deep on any particular issue, it might make sense to fork it again just so its easier to keep track of all of this stuff.

In the Auschwitz gas chambers, cyanide was delivered using a pesticide called Zyklon B. This substance consisted of hydrogen cyanide (HCN) gas absorbed into small pellets or granules, which were typically made of diatomaceous earth.

The pellets were poured into the gas chambers through special openings in the ceiling or through wall vents. At Auschwitz, there were mesh-covered shafts or sealed openings fitted with sliding lids, through which SS personnel would drop the Zyklon B canisters or pellets.

Once exposed to air, the pellets evaporated hydrogen cyanide gas at room temperature. The release was not immediate, but occurred relatively quickly—within minutes—especially in the warm and crowded conditions inside the chambers.

The gas chambers were hermetically sealed to prevent gas from escaping and to ensure a high concentration of the lethal gas.

Hydrogen cyanide is a cellular asphyxiant, meaning it blocks the cells' ability to use oxygen. Victims typically died of internal suffocation within 10 to 20 minutes, though many died faster due to panic, overcrowding, and the high concentration of gas.

After the victims died, Sonderkommando prisoners—Jewish inmates forced to work for the SS—would ventilate the chamber and remove the bodies for cremation.

This process was industrially organized and repeated many times a day during the height of operations at Auschwitz-Birkenau.

[ConfusedJew]

How do we know that it happened like this?

We know about how cyanide was delivered in the Auschwitz gas chambers through a combination of eyewitness testimony, physical evidence, captured Nazi documents, and post-war investigations.

Eyewitness Testimony
Sonderkommando prisoners, who were forced to work in the gas chambers and crematoria, left detailed testimonies. Some, like Filip Müller, survived and gave direct accounts of how Zyklon B was used and how the chambers operated. These testimonies describe the delivery mechanisms, the sequence of operations, and even SS personnel involved.

Captured or tried SS officers provided detailed confessions during trials. Most notably, Rudolf Höss, the Auschwitz commandant, confessed during the Nuremberg Trials and gave a detailed written affidavit describing Zyklon B use. Other SS officers corroborated these details in trials in Germany and Poland after the war.

Physical Evidence
Ruins of Gas Chambers and Crematoria - Though the Nazis tried to destroy the crematoria at Auschwitz-Birkenau in late 1944 to cover their crimes, significant structural remains were studied after liberation and still exist.

Ventilation systems, columns, and openings - The remains of Zyklon B introduction ports (such as mesh-covered shafts) are visible in the ruins.

Zyklon B residue - Chemical tests in the 1990s (e.g., by the Polish forensic institute and others) found cyanide traces in the walls of the gas chambers, consistent with prolonged use of Zyklon B.

Captured Nazi Documents
Invoices and shipping records from firms like Degesch and Tesch & Stabenow, who supplied Zyklon B, show large shipments to Auschwitz—far beyond what would be needed for delousing clothing.

Construction plans and blueprints from Auschwitz detail the layout of crematoria and gas chambers, including labeled features like “Gaskammer” (gas chamber) and Zyklon B introduction shafts.

[Wahrheitssucher]

I'll make a new thread to discuss the delivery mechanism of the cyanide since that's not really related to the chemistry.

The delivery mechanism of the ‘HYDROGEN cyanide’ is “not related to the chemistry”?!?!?

Hydrogen cyanide (HCN) is a chemical compound.

It is a lethal one if inhaled by humans.

Delivering it to a restricted area as a weapon of mass murder for only selected victims requires knowledge of its chemical qualities.

A basic knowledge of how this chemical compound was allegedly used to kill ‘jews’ is required to know whether the holocaust mass-gassing accusations are credible.

Therefore I suggest the problem in this discussion is that we are dealing here with a person (CJ) who is a technophobe.
(Perhaps someone could ask CJ what gender they are, as that might explain the communication problem, here).

I predict these conversations with CJ and Bombsaway will never reach a satisfactory conclusion.

That is because I believe these persons are not interested in the facts but only in buttressing the jewish, compulsory, WW2 belief-system.

[HansHill]

Why do you read such a statement as inferring that all or a large amount of the pellets fell through, rather than a much smaller fraction?

No answer. Got it.

Since you asked - I infer these Sonderkommandos are lying out their ass, since uncontrolled and indefinite duration HCN exposure via loose pellets is infinitely more probabilistic than not to leave Prussian Blue residues under the conditions described.

This isnt about my inferences though.

[bombsaway]

https://www.hdot.org/debunking-denial/a ... mns/#_edn3

[Nessie]

The delivery mechanism was dropping Zyklon B into mesh columns, in Kremas II and III. For Krema I, it was dropping Zyklon B through holes in the roof, onto the floor. For the other gas chambers, in the cellar of Block 11, the converted farm houses next to Birkenau and Kremas IV and V, it was to throw or pour pellets into the room through a door or window.

[Archie]

Does anybody disagree with anything here? If we start to go too deep on any particular issue, it might make sense to fork it again just so its easier to keep track of all of this stuff.

In the Auschwitz gas chambers, cyanide was delivered using a pesticide called Zyklon B. This substance consisted of hydrogen cyanide (HCN) gas absorbed into small pellets or granules, which were typically made of diatomaceous earth.

The pellets were poured into the gas chambers through special openings in the ceiling or through wall vents. At Auschwitz, there were mesh-covered shafts or sealed openings fitted with sliding lids, through which SS personnel would drop the Zyklon B canisters or pellets.

Once exposed to air, the pellets evaporated hydrogen cyanide gas at room temperature. The release was not immediate, but occurred relatively quickly—within minutes—especially in the warm and crowded conditions inside the chambers.

The gas chambers were hermetically sealed to prevent gas from escaping and to ensure a high concentration of the lethal gas.

Hydrogen cyanide is a cellular asphyxiant, meaning it blocks the cells' ability to use oxygen. Victims typically died of internal suffocation within 10 to 20 minutes, though many died faster due to panic, overcrowding, and the high concentration of gas.

After the victims died, Sonderkommando prisoners—Jewish inmates forced to work for the SS—would ventilate the chamber and remove the bodies for cremation.

This process was industrially organized and repeated many times a day during the height of operations at Auschwitz-Birkenau.

Merged.

If you are interested specifically in the so-called "Kula columns" we had a discussion a few months ago.

https://codohforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=163

[Stubble]

Does anybody disagree with anything here? If we start to go too deep on any particular issue, it might make sense to fork it again just so its easier to keep track of all of this stuff.

Yes. I disagree with much of this.

In the Auschwitz gas chambers, cyanide was delivered using a pesticide called Zyklon B. This substance consisted of hydrogen cyanide (HCN) gas absorbed into small pellets or granules, which were typically made of diatomaceous earth.

That's the claim.

The pellets were poured into the gas chambers through special openings in the ceiling or through wall vents. At Auschwitz, there were mesh-covered shafts or sealed openings fitted with sliding lids, through which SS personnel would drop the Zyklon B canisters or pellets.

Again, that's the claim.

Once exposed to air, the pellets evaporated hydrogen cyanide gas at room temperature. The release was not immediate, but occurred relatively quickly—within minutes—especially in the warm and crowded conditions inside the chambers.

We are talking about semibasments or buildings in Poland. What was the ambient temperature on average in December? Is this suitable for the off-gassing of zyklon-B? Think about this.

The gas chambers were hermetically sealed to prevent gas from escaping and to ensure a high concentration of the lethal gas.

The morgues were sealed because they were morgues. They also served a dual purpose as expedient bomb and gas shelters in the case of Kremas I-III.

Hydrogen cyanide is a cellular asphyxiant, meaning it blocks the cells' ability to use oxygen. Victims typically died of internal suffocation within 10 to 20 minutes, though many died faster due to panic, overcrowding, and the high concentration of gas.

This is entirely dependent on exposure/time. An exposure time of over an hour will not be lethal if the concentration is low enough, and an exposure time of mere minutes will be absolutely lethal if the concentration is high enough.

After the victims died, Sonderkommando prisoners—Jewish inmates forced to work for the SS—would ventilate the chamber and remove the bodies for cremation.

I don't think that is precisely the claim. For example, in Kremas II and III it is claimed that a ventilation system was installed and used for this purpose. Upon closer inspection one finds the system was insufficient for purpose and also backwards for HcN as HcN is lighter than air. In Krema I, some have claimed a ventilation fan was installed. The installation of such a fan and its description in process however was somehow never mentioned in the early descriptions.

This process was industrially organized and repeated many times a day during the height of operations at Auschwitz-Birkenau.

This is impossible to reconcile with cremation rates. Even if you assume 1,000 people per gassing (there are claims of up to 3,000 people at a time) at Krema II for example, that's still more than 1 day cremation time with 15 muffles. If you are going to lean on 'outdoor pyres', you will need to support that claim with evidence. It is not supported for example by the aerial reconnaissance photographs which would have been during the supposed 'Hungarian Aktion'. These were taken at the right place, at the right time, and with the exception of one photo set from a South African sortie that saw one pyre behind Krema V after the sabotage of Krema IV, there is no photographic evidence of pyres.

Furthermore, if these facilities were designed, as you claimed, for the execution of people in homicidal gas chambers, by the thousands, obviously, cremation capacity would have been engineered to match. It wasn't.

I had initially though this thread was redundant as I thought you were just talking about 'Kula's Columns'. Upon further reading I can see that you are talking about gassings with Zyklon-B in general.

I think it was Mauthausen they claimed use of a handheld portable 'smoke machine' after claiming first a series of other methods. At Dachau, they also claimed different methods of delivery over time. Et cetera.

[Nessie]

.... If you are going to lean on 'outdoor pyres', you will need to support that claim with evidence. It is not supported for example by the aerial reconnaissance photographs which would have been during the supposed 'Hungarian Aktion'. These were taken at the right place, at the right time, and with the exception of one photo set from a South African sortie that saw one pyre behind Krema V after the sabotage of Krema IV, there is no photographic evidence of pyres.

So there is an aerial photo that evidences the use of pyres. There is more than you suggest;

https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... ation.html

"The aerial photographs indicate open-air cremation in the backyard of crematorium 5 on 31 May, 8 July, 20 and 23 August 1944 (close-ups from Mattogno, AOAI)."

Add that to the Sonderkommando photos and witnesses, and the use of pyres is proven. Stop trying to dishonestly minimise the amount of evidence.