If the Soviets discovered ‘death camps using gas’ why did Stalin not write about it?

[Nessie]

You are now arguing Stalin did not comment on the gas chambers, because he knew they were not credible, so does that mean you think that the gas chambers were not a Soviet hoax?

No. And you are still not getting it, hilariously. So i'll invoke another example, even thought Wetzelrad's example was already perfect.

President Johnson in the immediate aftermath of the Gulf Of Tonkin attack, made a radio address to the American people detailing the two "attacks".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_T ... can_people

This opened Johnson up to legitimate criticism, as these reports lacked the credibility required for such an accusation



Stalin was simply not going to make a mistake like this, he had far too much on the line in the immediate post-war / early Cold War to be as hilariously sloppy as you suggest. This behaviour from Stlain is consistent with other Soviet hoaxes like Katyn and the Jew Soap presented at Nuremberg.

Josef Stalin simply isn't going to rant and rave about gas chambers or Jew soap. He's a level above that.

Your argument is that Stalin knew it was a hoax, but he did not have any confidence in it, so he did not want to associate himself with it, or allow it to be memorialised, or any histories be written.

Is that why he left the Poles to manage and memorialise the sites, conduct many of the trials and write histories about it?

[Nessie]

As an addendum: Lest this be categorised as "cherry picking", this was absolutely in character and understood about Stalin.

See below as per Daniel Harrington "Berlin On The Brink"



Yet again this confirms to us what you have now been told repeatedly: Stalin simply isn't going to make rash, silly, and ridiculous comments. His credibility and personal prestige as a Statesman would not allow for this.

Again, your argument is that the Holocaust was not a "strong hand" that Stalin could be confident in. I know you don't have any evidence, so no point in asking for any. It is just your belief.

[HansHill]

My position doesn't require "Stalin to believe it was a Hoax", merely I require "Stalin to believe it was untenable for credibility purposes".

This is consistent with other authority figures and decision makers as has now been demonstrated to you ad nauseam, and in particular is consistent with how we understood Stalin himself to have behaved, thought, and operated, including his handling of various other Soviet "hoaxes".

[Wetzelrad]

Another clarifying example here is the Sednaya prison. When Assad fled Syria in 2024 our media tried to convince us that Sednaya was the site of the most ghoulish atrocities.

This article describes Sednaya as a "human slaughterhouse", with one room called a "butcher room" with an "iron press death trap" and with "bodies sliced up and broken down in acid." Reportedly "100,000 detainees were trapped inside" and 30,000 were listed in the "Book of Death".
https://www.the-sun.com/news/13108404/s ... d-critics/

From our state media, NPR: "Some hundred thousand Syrians disappeared into jails like these [...]"
https://www.npr.org/transcripts/1227095117

From Fox: "At least 500,000 Syrians have since been killed, more than 130,000 more disappeared into a mass detention, torture and execution infrastructure in which industrial crematoriums and 'iron presses' were used to efficiently dispose of bodies."
https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/assads- ... ize-moment

This is merely the tip of the iceberg. All these accusations rest on what anti-Assad groups say and the provided photos of this abandoned building. From a cursory search, investigations have yet to turn up any better evidence, including the 100,000 bodies supposedly buried in a mass grave at al-Qutayfah.

Amusingly, there was even an incident in which CNN was chastised by rival media for portraying one of the prison's "torturers" as a prisoner. Thus the one debunking allowed on this story is one which portrays the Syrians even more negatively than before.
https://reason.com/2024/12/17/cnn-prese ... -survivor/

So how did Western leaders respond to this? On December 8th President Biden made only this vague allusion to atrocity: "At long last, the Assad regime has fallen. This regime brutalized and tortured and killed literally hundreds of thousands of innocent Syrians."
https://bidenwhitehouse.archives.gov/br ... -in-syria/

Just like Stalin and Churchill, he did not comment on the prison or the mass graves or the specific means of killing. He made one generalized comment on what Assad was accused of, a comment that would remain defensible even if it later came out that Sednaya was a hoax.

(Did abuses actually occur at Sednaya? I think it's plausible, but these reports are wildly exaggerated.)

[TlsMS93]

Again, this argument that Poles and Soviets in the postwar period were independent entities. The Soviets and Poles collaborated on all this with commissions and show trials, each in their own way of presenting the story to the public, with the Soviets portraying atrocities in general and the Poles portraying their Jews (now they considered Polish Jews as Polish citizens to arrive at the 6 million Poles killed).

The fact that Stalin did not support any of this is no proof of Soviet non-involvement, otherwise Katyn would not be Soviet fault because he declared that the trail of Polish prisoners had disappeared in the Far East.

[Nessie]

My position doesn't require "Stalin to believe it was a Hoax", merely I require "Stalin to believe it was untenable for credibility purposes".

This is consistent with other authority figures and decision makers as has now been demonstrated to you ad nauseam, and in particular is consistent with how we understood Stalin himself to have behaved, thought, and operated, including his handling of various other Soviet "hoaxes".

How Stalin handled hoaxes, has not been demonstrated to me ad nauseam. Maybe it has been discussed elsewhere in the forum?

Did Stalin never mention Katyn? What other hoaxes did he not mention?

[Nessie]

Again, this argument that Poles and Soviets in the postwar period were independent entities. The Soviets and Poles collaborated on all this with commissions and show trials, each in their own way of presenting the story to the public, with the Soviets portraying atrocities in general and the Poles portraying their Jews (now they considered Polish Jews as Polish citizens to arrive at the 6 million Poles killed).

The fact that Stalin did not support any of this is no proof of Soviet non-involvement, otherwise Katyn would not be Soviet fault because he declared that the trail of Polish prisoners had disappeared in the Far East.

The Soviets and Ukraine, Latvia and Lithuania, were not independent entities. The Soviets and Poland were separate and as time went by the distance between them grew, such that by the 1980s, it was the Poles who drove the collapse of Communism and the break-up of the Soviet Union. Many Poles did not support the SU, and they knew what was really responsible for Katyn. They had to bide their time, but they eventually won.

Poles, Ukrainians, Latvians and Lithuanians, joined with the Nazis and killed Jews. That is part of the history of those countries, for which they all still accept responsibility for. If it was a Soviet hoax, do you not think they would have revealed the truth, as the truth was revealed about Katyn?

[HansHill]

My position doesn't require "Stalin to believe it was a Hoax", merely I require "Stalin to believe it was untenable for credibility purposes".

This is consistent with other authority figures and decision makers as has now been demonstrated to you ad nauseam, and in particular is consistent with how we understood Stalin himself to have behaved, thought, and operated, including his handling of various other Soviet "hoaxes".

How Stalin handled hoaxes

He didn't.

Did Stalin never mention Katyn? What other hoaxes did he not mention?

What even is this argument?

>List the hoaxes Josef Stalin never mentioned otherwise they happened

????

For a start, he never mentioned:

- The gas chamber hoax
- The shrunken head hoax
- The electrocution plate hoax
- The jew soap hoax
- The geysers of blood hoax
- The baby's heads as soccer balls hoax

I could go on but this is idiotic. It has been explained to you ad nauseam why a Statesman of Josef Stalin's status and pedigree would not rant about these things during the early Cold War.

[Nessie]

My position doesn't require "Stalin to believe it was a Hoax", merely I require "Stalin to believe it was untenable for credibility purposes".

This is consistent with other authority figures and decision makers as has now been demonstrated to you ad nauseam, and in particular is consistent with how we understood Stalin himself to have behaved, thought, and operated, including his handling of various other Soviet "hoaxes".

How Stalin handled hoaxes

He didn't.

You literally just said he did, "including his handling of various Soviet "hoaxes"".

How did he handle hoaxes? Show evidence with your answer.

Did Stalin never mention Katyn? What other hoaxes did he not mention?

What even is this argument?

>List the hoaxes Josef Stalin never mentioned otherwise they happened

????

For a start, he never mentioned:

- The gas chamber hoax
- The shrunken head hoax
- The electrocution plate hoax
- The jew soap hoax
- The geysers of blood hoax
- The baby's heads as soccer balls hoax

I could go on but this is idiotic. It has been explained to you ad nauseam why a Statesman of Josef Stalin's status and pedigree would not rant about these things during the early Cold War.

Again, it has not been explained to me ad nauseam. You quote mind me above, chopping out where I pointed that out to you.

You have not answered my question about whether he ever talked or wrote about Katyn. If you don't know, just say so.

[HansHill]

Slop.

[Nessie]

Slop.

"...with how we understood Stalin himself to have behaved, thought, and operated, including his handling of various other Soviet "hoaxes".

How Stalin handled hoaxes

He didn't.

So, how did Stalin handle hoaxes? Start with Katyn. Show evidence.

[HansHill]

Slop.

"...with how we understood Stalin himself to have behaved, thought, and operated, including his handling of various other Soviet "hoaxes".

How Stalin handled hoaxes

He didn't.

So, how did Stalin handle hoaxes? Start with Katyn. Show evidence.

What evidence are you looking for?

[Nessie]

Slop.

"...with how we understood Stalin himself to have behaved, thought, and operated, including his handling of various other Soviet "hoaxes".



He didn't.

So, how did Stalin handle hoaxes? Start with Katyn. Show evidence.

What evidence are you looking for?

Evidence of how Stalin handled hoaxes. You admit he did handle them, but then suggest it was at arms length, where he himself would not make any mention of them. Can you provide any evidence of that, regarding Katyn? Did he order the hoax? Did he ever reference Katyn in any speech, or writing? If you don't know and have no evidence, just say so.

[HansHill]

So, how did Stalin handle hoaxes? Start with Katyn. Show evidence.

What evidence are you looking for?

Evidence of how Stalin handled hoaxes. You admit he did handle them, but then suggest it was at arms length, where he himself would not make any mention of them. Can you provide any evidence of that, regarding Katyn? Did he order the hoax? Did he ever reference Katyn in any speech, or writing? If you don't know and have no evidence, just say so.

So to be clear: You want evidence of Josef Stalin not mentioning WWII hoaxes.

Here you go:

[Nessie]

What evidence are you looking for?

Evidence of how Stalin handled hoaxes. You admit he did handle them, but then suggest it was at arms length, where he himself would not make any mention of them. Can you provide any evidence of that, regarding Katyn? Did he order the hoax? Did he ever reference Katyn in any speech, or writing? If you don't know and have no evidence, just say so.

So to be clear: You want evidence of Josef Stalin not mentioning WWII hoaxes.

Here you go:

EDIT new response - if you cannot search for evidence as to whether or not Stalin did anything to support or promote the Katyn hoax, then I suppose I will have to.