The 6,000,000 number, a fable?

[Stubble]

I said murdered, every jew that died in ww2 was murdered by a nazi?

No jew died of injury, no jew died of age, no jew died of natural causes what so ever?

Let me be more specific, who did the nazis gas in a homicidal gas chamber? Can you name for me a proven gassing victim? 1 proven gassing victim?

Also, Nessie, find me a sardine style grave full copper jacketed 9mm projectile and bodies with bullets to the back of the head. That's fucking evidence.

Note; earlier it was conjectured that I don't care about any genocides that have occurred, this is untrue. The lies surrounding the great leap forward, the holodomor, the Rwandan genocide, the Armenian genocide etc pale by comparison to the disregard for truth in the shoah. Are all genocides exploited and propagandized? I'm sure they are, by and to degrees, that's not the point. The point is, the shoah was not as the label says. It is a false bill of goods, a fraud, the way it is presented to the world, from the 6,000,000 figure to the wansee minutes, to the killing fields, at every point I find holes in the orthodox narrative large enough to be a point of harbor for the USS Liberty.

Let's take for example the t4 personnel, they were chosen because they were experienced with gassing people, according to the orthodox narrative, and yet, they reinvented the wheel when they got to Poland, not once, but thrice...

[SanityCheck]

Mr Check, did 6,000,000 jews die at the hands of nazis in an act of murder, specifically murder, during the second world war?

No, something just over five million Jews died

This is so f*cking stupid and you're basically making Revisionists point for us. I'm not telling you what country I am in right now, but if I make the statement "Adolf Hitler did not gas 6 million Jews" in public, I risk legal entanglements, having my kids taken away from me, economic sanctions and unemployment.

No amount of grovelling "But officer, what I actually meant was that it was 5.1 million Jews, look here it is as per Hilberg!" will compensate for this reality. This demonstrates very neatly that Six-Million-As-Symbol > Six-Million-As-Number. It follows then, from the Revisionist's side that symbols aren't calculated because they don't bloody well have to be. It's like adding two cells together in Excel, except those cells are words and not numbers. Its a meaningless operation in an exercise that doesn't require it.

What you're left to kvetch over, is the symbol mystical, or illogical, or co-incidence, or premeditated.

Why would you want to say something so trivial and stupid as 'Hitler did not gas six million Jews'? It adds literally nothing to any discussion, unless someone said that beforehand and they would benefit from gentle correction.

Whatever your country is, there will be books written in the relevant language, including quite likely translations of Hilberg, which will make quite clear one way or another that the statement you feel unable to say is quite, quite stupid. There will be Wikipedia pages where the death tolls of camps are broken down and don't add up to six million, while also discussing the shootings, ghettos and 'ordinary' camp deaths, just like everywhere else in the world.

The public discourse as opposed to casual idiots will NOT focus on 'six million gassed' since this is a hallucination - we ought to be much more familiar with those now that generative AI is coming up with random rubbish.

The only relevance would be if someone else blurted out the hallucinated 'six million gassed' misunderstanding, and then you would surely have basic web links and references you could use should you be feeling public-spirited and wish to correct someone gently. That isn't "denying the Holocaust" and even if a moron denounced you then you have facts on your side.

You can even hide behind USHMM, Yad Vashem and no doubt other museums and attribute the correction to them, also conveying that you are merely passing on their views - which would salve a revisionist conscience: 'actually, Yad Vashem and USHMM don't say six million were gassed'. Because they don't.

[SanityCheck]

I said murdered, every jew that died in ww2 was murdered by a nazi?

No jew died of injury, no jew died of age, no jew died of natural causes what so ever?

None of the other megacide and genocide death tolls make such distinctions so people don't with the Holocaust. Hairsplitting and trying to make such distinctions is a sign you're in the bargaining stage of grief. It doesn't generally work out well because with megacides there are always multiple causes.

You'll find that country by country - that level you insist on ignoring - then such distinctions can be made. The German Federal Archives Memorial Book (Bundesarchiv Gedenkbuch will google it) does not include German Jews who died of natural causes before deportations. It does include suicides triggered by the threat of deportations (a small minority) and deaths in Theresienstadt since conveying someone to a place of confinement crosses the coercion line.

The death tolls for Norway around western and southern to southeastern Europe to Greece include only non-surviving deportees, there will be notes on how many died in the internment camps before deportation but the numbers are insignificant compared to x many deported, y many came back, z many therefore died after deportation.

This is no different to calculating death tolls from other deportations and camp systems (like the expulsions, GULag, Armenian genocide).

Let me be more specific, who did the nazis gas in a homicidal gas chamber? Can you name for me a proven gassing victim? 1 proven gassing victim?

Natzweiler gassings of 86 Jews to harvest their skeletons for the Strasbourg Anatomy Institute - all the names were identified twenty plus years ago. This is a much more tightly focused case where the identities of the victims were written down in separate documents, correlated with the evidence for the gassing including more documents and witnesses, while the hacked-apart remains were found in the Strasbourg Anatomy Institute displaying Auschwitz tattoo numbers. That is obviously unusual when it was routine to cremate the bodies of even 'ordinary' deaths in the KZs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans-Joac ... he_victims

What is 'proven' will depend on the standards of evidence being used for specific purposes. Criminal courts after 1945 convicted SS officers and men of participating in mass gassings without needing to prove the identities of individuals. Because it isn't needed to know mass murder happened. Civil courts needed only to know that someone was deported to Auschwitz etc and showed up on a transport list then did not return to declare them legally dead.

Individual survivors have certainly testified to seeing their relatives - wives, children - taken away to be gassed. Oskar Strawczynski, a survivor of Treblinka, provides a good example, with the added benefit that he also testified in the Duesseldorf Treblinka trial and was found to be a truthful witness, while his memoir and prior testimonies all would qualify in contemporary courts (since he is now dead). Past a certain point one has to treat this as history rather than relitigating everything in a fringe reset.
https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... -with.html

Also past a certain point, goalpost moving and aspiring to ever higher standards means that more and more cases of mass murder, massacre, megacide and genocide become 'unprovable'. Which likely will include historical crimes as the would-be perfectionists do care about.

If they're single issue obsessives and try to immunise their demands for proof by ignoring all reasonable comparisons, that will stick out. It's why there are no revisionists among those working on comparative genocide studies or comparative mass violence studies, and also why no revisionists have more than a passing familiarity with either body of work, or the full range of historical examples.

Also, Nessie, find me a sardine style grave full copper jacketed 9mm projectile and bodies with bullets to the back of the head. That's fucking evidence.

https://grahamtblewitt.com/the-serniki-mass-grave/

Pointing to this example because Serniki was one mass grave fully reexhumed for the benefit of a common-law court case (in Australia), where 9mm bullets of German manufacture dating no later than 1941 were found. The skeletons seen in the exhumation photos are clearly piled on top of each other.

Revisiting mass graves isn't generally done on a systematic basis, so fuck right off if you selectively demand this for the Holocaust shootings and not for all other cases of mass killing. For many massacres even in modern history there won't ever have been any attempt however crude at gathering forensics; this would be true for even recent eras where resources and techniques allow a more extensive effort than would have been possible in the 1900s-1940s. For the Holocaust shootings the basic work was done in the 1940s by Soviet and Polish authorities. Such work wasn't done at all for many other historical massacres.

[Stubble]

I keep forgetting that Auschwitz didn't have a gas chamber and so couldn't provide Hirt with the skulls he asked for as they executed internees for crimes with a bullet to the head. My apologies. These Auschwitz jews were indeed executed at Natzweiler-Struthof in an improvised homicidal gas chamber, this action is complete with memoranda, documentation and the bodies of the condemned. (Unlike the millions of other alleged homicidal gassings)

With your shooting action, I'll have to look into that one. Looking at the size and depth of the grave, I believe I may be able to provide film of this action, if so, these were partisans killed by the Einsatzgruppen. There is more diligence due on my end however, and I could be mistaken.

This grave very specifically isn't a 'sardine style' grave however, for what that's worth.

[Nessie]

Mr Check, did 6,000,000 jews die at the hands of nazis in an act of murder, specifically murder, during the second world war?

No, something just over five million Jews died

This is so f*cking stupid and you're basically making Revisionists point for us. I'm not telling you what country I am in right now, but if I make the statement "Adolf Hitler did not gas 6 million Jews" in public, I risk legal entanglements, having my kids taken away from me, economic sanctions and unemployment.

It depends on how you say it. If you say, as SanityCheck has, whereby he is in the approximate range that is widely accepted as the overall death toll, and, crucially, the bit you fail at every single time, you accompany your claim with some.....evidence, you will not be arrested.

No amount of grovelling "But officer, what I actually meant was that it was 5.1 million Jews, look here it is as per Hilberg!" will compensate for this reality.

Rubbish. That is conspiratorial fantasy.

This demonstrates very neatly that Six-Million-As-Symbol > Six-Million-As-Number. It follows then, from the Revisionist's side that symbols aren't calculated because they don't bloody well have to be. It's like adding two cells together in Excel, except those cells are words and not numbers. Its a meaningless operation in an exercise that doesn't require it.

What you're left to kvetch over, is the symbol mystical, or illogical, or co-incidence, or premeditated.

Nothing you produce is properly evidenced to a decent standard.

[Nessie]

I said murdered, every jew that died in ww2 was murdered by a nazi?

No. Many Latvians, Lithuanians, Ukrainians, Poles, Serbs and Romanians would not have considered themselves Nazis, but they murdered Jews, when the Nazis presented them with the opportunity to do so. The reason why the Holocaust death toll was so high, was because the Nazis received so much cooperation. From Quisling in Norway, to the Dutch Civil Service and police, many local people worked to identify, register, arrest and transport Jews, making them complicity in their ultimate fates.

So-called revisionists ignore that none of those countries deny their active involvement in the Holocaust, and why they would all cooperate together, in a hoax.

No jew died of injury, no jew died of age, no jew died of natural causes what so ever?

Of course they did. Korherr provided many statistics on natural deaths.

Let me be more specific, who did the nazis gas in a homicidal gas chamber? Can you name for me a proven gassing victim? 1 proven gassing victim?

Where the names of people in transports to the death camps are known, and then only certain names appear in camp records at later dates, those whose names disappear, are proven to have been gassed. For example, the Dutch children, whose name plates were found at Sobibor.

https://www.majdanek.eu/en/pow/children_s_tags/69

Lea Judith de la Penha, David (Deddie) Jacob Zak, Annie Kapper.

Also, Nessie, find me a sardine style grave full copper jacketed 9mm projectile and bodies with bullets to the back of the head. That's fucking evidence.

Don't talk to me about fucking evidence, when you fail so abjectly to produce any evidence. You cannot even produce a fucking eyewitness who you believe! Where is your evidence that the ground witnesses state mass graves were located, is in fact undisturbed? Where are the documents recording millions of Jews being resettled and living in the east, in 1944?

I see SanityCheck has shown you an example of a mass grave. Here is another example, in Belarus;

https://news.sky.com/story/more-than-1- ... d-11726739

"More than 1,200 Jewish Holocaust victims buried after mass grave discovered
Many of the skulls discovered in the mass grave had bullet holes in them, suggesting they had been executed by Nazi soldiers."

Note; earlier it was conjectured that I don't care about any genocides that have occurred, this is untrue. The lies surrounding the great leap forward, the holodomor, the Rwandan genocide, the Armenian genocide etc pale by comparison to the disregard for truth in the shoah. Are all genocides exploited and propagandized? I'm sure they are, by and to degrees, that's not the point.

You marginalise other genocides and concentrate on the one that is most relevant to you. You would find Ukrainians, Rwandans and Armenians, concentrate on the genocides most relevant to them.

The point is, the shoah was not as the label says. It is a false bill of goods, a fraud, the way it is presented to the world, from the 6,000,000 figure to the wansee minutes, to the killing fields, at every point I find holes in the orthodox narrative large enough to be a point of harbor for the USS Liberty.

You want to find holes, so you distort, misrepresent and lie to find them.

Let's take for example the t4 personnel, they were chosen because they were experienced with gassing people, according to the orthodox narrative, and yet, they reinvented the wheel when they got to Poland, not once, but thrice...

They were chosen not because of their expertise in physically setting up and operating gas chambers. They were chosen because they could mentally cope with, and be trusted to be a part of, a mass killing operation, whether their job was guard, or to ensure property was collected and sorted, or to get wood delivered. Erich Fuchs was a driver for T4, and when he moved to AR, his previous job as a mechanic meant he then worked on the gas chamber engines.

You just don't want to believe, so you distorted and misrepresented the transfer of personnel from one operation to another, to fuel your desire to find it all too incredible.

[Keen]

Don't talk to me about fucking evidence, when you fail so abjectly to produce any evidence. You cannot even produce a fucking eyewitness who you believe! Where is your evidence that the ground witnesses state mass graves were located, is in fact undisturbed? Where are the documents recording millions of Jews being resettled and living in the east, in 1944?

LOL! Poor Nessie is losing it because he knows his so-called "evidence" means nothing now that Greg Gerdes has PROVEN that the “huge mass grave discoveries” of Belzec, Chelmno, Ponary, Sobibor and Treblinka II are fraudulent charades, the Belzec, Chelmno, Ponary, Sobibor and Treblinka II mass murder / holocaust allegations are false, and the orthodox holocaust story did not happen as alleged.

No amount of "evidencing" can help you now Nessie. The only thing left for you to do is to debate Greg Gerdes.

But of course, you lack the courage and intelligence to do such a thing, don't you Nessie?

[Archie]

Revisiting this i am even less impressed with ooooh-Weissmandl-said-six-million than I was before. For two reasons

1. Weissmandl was just one of many thousands of observers-commentators, Jewish and non-Jewish, at this time. Numerous Jewish observers pieced together information to conclude patterns of extermination or heard things about different countries/regions and inferred things. This would start in 1941, with e.g. the appeal to resistance in Wilno a good example in January 1942. Many more such contemporary sources note down patterns, some might have attempted to estimate numbers. Most did not, or might have fudged things ('millions'). Or not known so much about wider patterns, unlike the very well connected.

2. Weissmandl's letter of 31 May 1944 was written in full knowledge of ongoing deportations from Hungary and after the Vrba-Wetzler report had been written down. The 'working group' in Slovakia had learned about Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka in 1942-3, thousands of Polish Jewish refugees passed through Slovakia en route to Hungary in 1942-44 bringing with them knowledge. Polish Jewish observers were reporting on essentially total extermination barring those in hiding and the remnants in labour camps, KZs and the Lodz ghetto. Quite probably some of these reports passed through Slovakia en route to Switzerland and Palestine, but even without detailed breakdowns, concluding that 3 million Polish Jews had been wiped out was not a huge leap by 1944. The Vrba-Wetzler report confirmed suspicions and reports that other nationalities were likewise being killed.

Before bringing up six million, Weissmandl mentioned no fewer than four extermination camps or their synonyms: "On the other hand, heads of government and radio must announce what was done to our people in the slaughter houses of Betzec, Malkinia, Sobibor, and Auschwitz. Till now six times a million Jews from Europe and Russia have been destroyed." The Working Group recorded the account of a Treblinka escapee in 1943, so the Malkinia synonym is no big deal.

The influence of Vrba-Wetzler on Weissmandl saying six million seems obvious on re-reading the entire document in The Holocaust Reader (pretty sure I saw this exact report in the WRB files within the past 10 years, in German.) If a further source reports on 1.765 million Jews killed at Auschwitz, then it's quite easy to see how this would help boost a sense of 3 million + a lot more, especially if as is likely the overlap (900,000 Polish Jews) was overlooked.

Finding an estimate of six million before Vrba-Wetzler reached Slovakia or anywhere else would be more 'premature', but after Vrba-Wetzler it seems much more likely.

Joel Brand was part of the Hungarian Jewish leadership inner circle, so likely saw Weissmandl's reports, Weissmandl and the Hungarians clearly were exchanging information. So once one observer went for a particular number, the chance of someone else repeating it shoots up.

Still waiting for the detailed survey of all Jewish observers and contemporary sources for 1944 to see how many more past three invoked six million privately or in public. Yes, that would be the appropriate denominator to establish significance - every name and no-name writing down their belief in generalised exterminaton without mentioning numbers would relativise the significance.

Bear in mind that with a Jewish population in Europe of 9-10 million at the start of the war, for somebody to guesstimate six million would be entirely plausible based on near-random chance - it's literally a 1 in 10 chance, whereas for 1944 it would likely be one in a thousand observers getting to six million, rather than 'almost everyone in Latvia' or '1.765 million in Auschwitz'.

You are welcome to argue this, but if this debate makes its way into the public square and these are the arguments I have to say I like our chances. Most people will see the problem immediately and no amount of spin doctoring about they were able to guesstimate six million in 1944 is going to save it.

We have multiple examples from very notable sources using it in 1944-1945, all pre-Hoettl. And this became the official number which is still used today.

Joel Brand had definitely seen some of the Weissmandl material. His 6M-2M remaining is a little unusual and I haven't found that formulation anywhere else. But he might have been attempting to harmonize the 6M dead he heard with his story that Eichmann had offered him a deal for 1-2 million Jews. There have to be 1-2 million Jews alive in German custody for that offer to make sense.

Here is the January 1944 example (well before Vrba-Wetzler)
https://www.unz.com/estriker/israeli-hi ... e-in-1944/

[Archie]

Mr Check, did 6,000,000 jews die at the hands of nazis in an act of murder, specifically murder, during the second world war?

No, something just over five million Jews died

This is so f*cking stupid and you're basically making Revisionists point for us. I'm not telling you what country I am in right now, but if I make the statement "Adolf Hitler did not gas 6 million Jews" in public, I risk legal entanglements, having my kids taken away from me, economic sanctions and unemployment.

No amount of grovelling "But officer, what I actually meant was that it was 5.1 million Jews, look here it is as per Hilberg!" will compensate for this reality. This demonstrates very neatly that Six-Million-As-Symbol > Six-Million-As-Number. It follows then, from the Revisionist's side that symbols aren't calculated because they don't bloody well have to be. It's like adding two cells together in Excel, except those cells are words and not numbers. Its a meaningless operation in an exercise that doesn't require it.

What you're left to kvetch over, is the symbol mystical, or illogical, or co-incidence, or premeditated.

I am just realizing that your Arlen, Texas location is a reference to your Hank Hill character. I'm slow. Ha.

The above is a clash between the Holocaust mainstream and online anti-revisionists. There are a lot of these! In the Holocaust mainstream, they use the six million and quote all the silliest stories without any shame whatsoever. They don't care if it makes sense because they know they will never be challenged on any of it (except by revisionists who are marginalized). But since anti-revisionists do engage with us, what you see is that they don't want to defend the six million so you end up with these mildly revisionist hot takes.

[Nessie]

...

The above is a clash between the Holocaust mainstream and online anti-revisionists. There are a lot of these! In the Holocaust mainstream, they use the six million and quote all the silliest stories without any shame whatsoever. They don't care if it makes sense because they know they will never be challenged on any of it (except by revisionists who are marginalized). But since anti-revisionists do engage with us, what you see is that they don't want to defend the six million so you end up with these mildly revisionist hot takes.

The historical sources uses approximately 6 million, or a range, usually 5 to 6 million. The media tend to abbreviate and just say 6 million. The death toll is easily defended, with evidence from multiple sources, many of which were Nazi documents, as they recorded arrests, camps, ghettos, transports and huge drops in the population.

What is not so easily defended, is the so-called revisionist narrative that millions were not killed. Instead, the silliest of arguments and non-history is used, without any sense of shame.

[SanityCheck]

You are welcome to argue this, but if this debate makes its way into the public square and these are the arguments I have to say I like our chances. Most people will see the problem immediately and no amount of spin doctoring about they were able to guesstimate six million in 1944 is going to save it.

We have multiple examples from very notable sources using it in 1944-1945, all pre-Hoettl. And this became the official number which is still used today.

Joel Brand had definitely seen some of the Weissmandl material. His 6M-2M remaining is a little unusual and I haven't found that formulation anywhere else. But he might have been attempting to harmonize the 6M dead he heard with his story that Eichmann had offered him a deal for 1-2 million Jews. There have to be 1-2 million Jews alive in German custody for that offer to make sense.

Here is the January 1944 example (well before Vrba-Wetzler)
https://www.unz.com/estriker/israeli-hi ... e-in-1944/

Most people will see that six million is a rounded estimate whether in 1944 or 1945 or later - and when investigating further will soon enough come across breakdowns that don't add up to six million.

The European Jewish population being what it was in 1939, then it was very, very likely that estimates would be made reaching six million by 1944, once the gist of the near total extermination of Polish Jewry was absorbed.

At the start of the year it's a guesstimate, by the end of 1944 observers had been bombarded with reports giving mega-totals for multiple camps as well as killing sites further east, so Lestschinsky estimating (still) six million in January 1945 is a very plausible extrapolation from the more cautious 1943 estimate of 3 million.


I'm assuming you're currently too cautious to advance a conspiracy theory whereby Hoettl picked up on six million from Hungarian Jewish circles - the catch being there's not so much evidence he had contact with them, whereas he definitely had contact with Eichmann. Nobody on your side seems to have bothered to check Hoettl's 1945 interrogators before Nuremberg so that's another gaping hole in the ooh-six-million theory. By the time he was taken to Nuremberg, then yes, interrogators could have cued off the IJA's 5.7 million report and... rounded up to match his earlier pre-Nuremberg estimate of six million. Just as Jacob Robinson noted that Wisliceny's 5 million was basically the same as the IJA's 5.7 million estimate.

But that's precisely the point the perseverative ooh-six-million non-argument won't accept.

Still waiting for any evidence that anyone anywhere across Europe fudged numbers to 'arrive' at six million. The contrary is clearly true since the initial estimates for the camps were so exaggerated that the same Jews were being killed two or three times over, the high numbers and confusions between camps, plus the apparent Soviet-Polish need to universalise by raising overall totals of millions of people, scupper any such argument. Which is why you guys tend to fuss over the early estimates separately, and/or resort to idiocies like the Auschwitz 4M people being reduced to 1 million Jews dying there and waaah it doesn't change the total. (Bangs head repeatedly on table in frustration at the asinine stupidity.)

[Stubble]

Mr Check, this is an ernest question, why do you find the 'in excess of 5,000,000' tallies credible? I don't personally trust the extrapolations because I feel the base data is flawed and I don't feel that anyone has properly accounted for emigration and evacuation by the Soviet. I favor Sanning of course, but, I'm open to correction here. Perhaps we can hash this out, if you have the time.

TL;DR

Where do you get your numbers for Soviet evacuation of jews and what are some good sources for looking into this particular facet of ww2? Where do you get your primary datasets? What method is used to account for emigration?

For posterity;