The 6,000,000 number, a fable?

[bombsaway]

It's Gemini actually, and it's running circles around you. I vet the response , it's a decent one

ChatGPT is correct: this is the period in which "people were thinking, reporting, and estimating as the events unfolded" -- this is exactly my point. It was not the time in which we'd expect a message intended to justify the state of Israel to be front-and-center in global news. There was simply too much happening "as the events unfolded". But at war's ending and immediately thereafter is precisely when one could claim Jews as 'missing' -- and that is when we see the '6 million' claims booming.

Analysis:

Analysis:

This argument presents two main ideas:

It concedes that the 1933-1945 period reflects active, real-time reporting. This seemingly modifies the previous characterization of this data as "statistical noise."
It posits that propaganda is most effective after a major crisis, not during it.
From an analytical perspective, the second point is debatable. Historically, wartime is a period of intense propaganda activity, as governments and groups seek to build support, demonize opponents, and influence policy. The argument that a propaganda campaign would be intentionally held back during the very events it concerns is a non-standard interpretation of communication strategy.

Furthermore, the post-war boom in the usage of "six million" has a well-documented historical explanation: the Nuremberg Trials. The need for specific figures for legal indictments led to formal demographic studies by organizations like the World Jewish Congress. The widely cited figure of approximately 5.7 million victims was rounded to six million, which then became institutionalized through the legal proceedings and subsequent historical scholarship. This provides a direct, non-conspiratorial cause for the post-war spike.

Does bombsaway believe five million Jews were already 'exterminated' in 1941-42 or earlier?

Analysis:

This question can be viewed as a potential strawman. The Ngram data does not measure verified facts on the ground in real-time; it measures the frequency of phrases in published literature. The argument being made is not that five million individuals had factually been killed by 1942, but that "five million" was a prevalent figure used in discourse to quantify the scale of the ongoing event and the total population perceived to be at risk. The use of such figures reflected contemporary attempts to understand the magnitude of the catastrophe, based on the estimated size of the Jewish population under Nazi control.

"Constant Pressure Theory"? Whose thesis is this?

Analysis:

This is a semantic objection. The term "Constant Pressure Theory" was introduced as a descriptor for the argument that there was a consistent, underlying "pattern of pressuring 'six million'" that was "constant near-end and following both World Wars." Objecting to the label does not address the substance of the counter-argument, which is: If a coordinated propaganda effort existed, it is logical to question why it was less prominent than an alternative number ("five million") during the height of the war.

Even today, many claim the estimate is "between 5 and 7 million". Thus, if this was the claim as far back as the 1940s, why on Earth do we see "six million" blowing up by orders of magnitude in the decades post-war? Not to mention the similar spike post-WW1... The Occam's razor for why patterns of "six million" look so very different... is that something beyond regular, honest reporting... has occurred.

Analysis:

This point raises two important questions that have historical explanations:

The Post-WWII Spike: As mentioned earlier, the "six million" figure was institutionalized at Nuremberg. It became the accepted shorthand in education, media, and memorials. The other figures ("five million," "seven million") were competing wartime estimates that were largely superseded once a number was established through this formal legal and historical process. The different Ngram patterns, therefore, do not necessarily suggest a conspiracy, but rather reflect a process of historical consensus forming around a single number.

The Post-WWI Spike: The usage of "six million" after World War I is also tied to demography. The figure corresponds to the approximate number of Jews living in the Russian Empire's Pale of Settlement, a population that suffered immense hardship from pogroms, civil war, and famine during that period. American Jewish relief organizations, for instance, frequently used this number in fundraising and awareness campaigns to describe the scale of the crisis. The recurrence of the number is tied to the fact that this same large demographic group was the primary target of the Nazis a generation later.

Conclusion:

The debate hinges on two competing interpretations of the same data.

One interpretation posits a long-term, coordinated propaganda effort, dismissing the wartime prevalence of "five million" as an anomaly or "noise" and viewing the post-war spike as the campaign's intended outcome.

The other interpretation sees the wartime prevalence of "five million" as key evidence against a coordinated campaign. It provides an alternative explanation where the numbers are rooted in evolving demographic estimates during the war, with the "six million" figure becoming dominant only after being institutionalized by the post-war Nuremberg Trials.

[Callafangers]

As said before, that would be my one and only direct response to your AI. The "statistical noise" is relative -- we are looking for instances of motivated or deceptive reporting of a specific, predetermined figure (6 million). This means that actual, legitimate reporting of the movements, activities, etc., of any Jewish population numbering 5, 6, or 7 million in size becomes "noise". Beyond the nature of the claims before/during/after either war, the period after the war(s) is paramount, for reasons I have already explained and fully justified.

Your GeminiGPT can claim the Nuremberg trials is the reason for "6 million", sure -- this doesn't explain its prevalence at the end of WW1, its specific claim of Jews killed or missing in many of these pre-WW2 instances, nor the Jewish teachers and scholars who emphasize the "minus six" as a precursor to the Zionist state. But most importantly, since your AI explicitly mentions a "widely cited figure of approximately 5.7 million victims" which it indicates justified the "6 million" at Nuremberg and thereafter: who/what/where did this "5.7 million victims" come from?

The figure of 5.7 million came from calculations by the World Jewish Congress, provided to Justice Jackson.

Source: Bazyler, M (). The Holocaust at Nuremberg: What the Record Reveals, 39 Loy. L.A. Int'l & Comp. L. Rev. 35 (2017), p. 45, ftn. 23. Available: https://digitalcommons.lmu.edu/cgi/view ... ontext=ilr

Ya' can't make this shit up.

[Nessie]

It is not a coincidence that so-called revisionists believe in the 6m fable, but those who support the evidenced history of mass murder, can see there is no conspiratorial link between per and post war uses of 6 million.

[Nazgul]

It is not a coincidence that so-called revisionists believe in the 6m fable, but those who support the eye witness evidenced history of mass murder, can see there is no conspiratorial link between per and post war uses of 6 million.

The only evidence he has, oh and of course the trains.

[HansHill]

It is not a coincidence that so-called revisionists believe in the 6m fable, but those who support the eye witness evidenced history of mass murder, can see there is no conspiratorial link between per and post war uses of 6 million.

The only evidence he has, oh and of course the trains.

Lets verify if what the eyewitnesses say is true
Oh look, its all true
how do you know
because the eyewitnesses said so

Wash, rinse, repeat

[HansHill]

As for propaganda, it's no more propaganda than the people who are saying white genocide is happening in South Africa. Or that white genocide is happening in America.

I agree with Mr Stubble's assessment here that the use of "genocide" relating to the White SA'ers is inaccurate. However, if I was a White Boer and was advocating politically to the international community for a White Ethnostate, that's exactly the type of hysteria I would be leveraging do you get the parallel yet?

https://www.codohforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=11392#p11392

[Nessie]

It is not a coincidence that so-called revisionists believe in the 6m fable, but those who support the eye witness evidenced history of mass murder, can see there is no conspiratorial link between per and post war uses of 6 million.

The only evidence he has, oh and of course the trains.

Lets verify if what the eyewitnesses say is true
Oh look, its all true
how do you know
because the eyewitnesses said so

Wash, rinse, repeat

That is a strawman misrepresentation of how eyewitness evidence is assessed to establish truthfulness. It is also off topic.

[Stubble]

Nessie, I'm going to argue that it is on topic because you've said it 6,000,000 times already.

[Nessie]

As for propaganda, it's no more propaganda than the people who are saying white genocide is happening in South Africa. Or that white genocide is happening in America.

I agree with Mr Stubble's assessment here that the use of "genocide" relating to the White SA'ers is inaccurate. However, if I was a White Boer and was advocating politically to the international community for a White Ethnostate, that's exactly the type of hysteria I would be leveraging do you get the parallel yet?

https://www.codohforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=11392#p11392

Fears are being expressed, of a genocide in South Africa, of white farmers;

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/wha ... e-farmers/

According to Holocaust so-called revisionist, conspiracists, if a genocide does take place, the fear being expressed at the moment, is evidence that there has been planning to fake a genocide of white farmers, who will in fact not be killed.

[HansHill]

As for propaganda, it's no more propaganda than the people who are saying white genocide is happening in South Africa. Or that white genocide is happening in America.

I agree with Mr Stubble's assessment here that the use of "genocide" relating to the White SA'ers is inaccurate. However, if I was a White Boer and was advocating politically to the international community for a White Ethnostate, that's exactly the type of hysteria I would be leveraging do you get the parallel yet?

https://www.codohforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=11392#p11392

Fears are being expressed, of a genocide in South Africa, of white farmers;

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/wha ... e-farmers/

According to Holocaust so-called revisionist, conspiracists, if a genocide does take place, the fear being expressed at the moment, is evidence that there has been planning to fake a genocide of white farmers, who will in fact not be killed.

Your analogy is missing a few key ingredients, isn't it? If White SA'ers get given an Ethnostate next year off the back of the fabricated genocide, and they were harping on about it for 50 years prior, then your analogy would be complete

Cope.

[Nessie]

I agree with Mr Stubble's assessment here that the use of "genocide" relating to the White SA'ers is inaccurate. However, if I was a White Boer and was advocating politically to the international community for a White Ethnostate, that's exactly the type of hysteria I would be leveraging do you get the parallel yet?

https://www.codohforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=11392#p11392

Fears are being expressed, of a genocide in South Africa, of white farmers;

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/wha ... e-farmers/

According to Holocaust so-called revisionist, conspiracists, if a genocide does take place, the fear being expressed at the moment, is evidence that there has been planning to fake a genocide of white farmers, who will in fact not be killed.

Your analogy is missing a few key ingredients, isn't it? If White SA'ers get given an Ethnostate next year off the back of the fabricated genocide, and they were harping on about it for 50 years prior, then your analogy would be complete

Cope.

If South African farmers do get a new country, based around Orania, as a result of the reports of genocide, according to you, that would be evidence the reports of genocide were fake and it was planned, to get the new country.

[HansHill]

Fears are being expressed, of a genocide in South Africa, of white farmers;

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/wha ... e-farmers/

According to Holocaust so-called revisionist, conspiracists, if a genocide does take place, the fear being expressed at the moment, is evidence that there has been planning to fake a genocide of white farmers, who will in fact not be killed.

Your analogy is missing a few key ingredients, isn't it? If White SA'ers get given an Ethnostate next year off the back of the fabricated genocide, and they were harping on about it for 50 years prior, then your analogy would be complete

Cope.

If South African farmers do get a new country, based around Orania, as a result of the reports of genocide, according to you, that would be evidence the reports of genocide were fake and it was planned, to get the new country.

Correct. Now further assume there was no murder weapon, no disposal method, utter lack of material evidence, and all the confessions from the perpetrators (Black SA'ers) were compromised, then yes it's a Slam Dunk.

I think that closes off the thread, and we can leave it there, chaps.

[Stubble]

Nessie, you are missing some nuance with regard to the revisionist position.

No one denies decimations and reprisals. Where things get heated is with regard to a planned extermination and homicidal gas chambers.

You are strawmanning.

[Nessie]

Nessie, you are missing some nuance with regard to the revisionist position.

No one denies decimations and reprisals. Where things get heated is with regard to a planned extermination and homicidal gas chambers.

You are strawmanning.

How to pre-war reports about concerns for the safety of 4, 5 and 6 million Jews, at the hands of the Soviets and then the Nazis, evidence that there were no gassings as part of a planned genocide of the Jews, by the Nazis?

[Stubble]

Nessie, you are missing some nuance with regard to the revisionist position.

No one denies decimations and reprisals. Where things get heated is with regard to a planned extermination and homicidal gas chambers.

You are strawmanning.

How to pre-war reports about concerns for the safety of 4, 5 and 6 million Jews, at the hands of the Soviets and then the Nazis, evidence that there were no gassings as part of a planned genocide of the Jews, by the Nazis?

This is non sequitur and off topic. We have many threads about gas chambers.

This discussion about the 6,000,000 is not associated with the question of homicidal gas chambers and homicidal gassings.