The murder mill Treblinka II

[Nazgul]

There is enough circumstantial evidence to show it is possible if not probable Jews on transports got off trains at extended stops at the precise sites of multitude zwangarbeitslager für Juden. Camps such as Skarżysko-Kamienna ammunition plant used thousands of Jews at any one time. The existence of such camps in 1945 must mean that a huge number of Jews were used for work. This in the mind of any rational person the Fahrplan train schedules would provide reasonable doubt of the mass murder narrative, proof is not necessary. Any ex law enforcement officer would know that their job is not to find anyone innocent but to prove beyond reasonable doubt that such a crime occurred. The holocaust promotors have not done this.

[Nessie]

There is enough circumstantial evidence to show it is possible if not probable Jews on transports got off trains at extended stops at the precise sites of multitude zwangarbeitslager für Juden. Camps such as Skarżysko-Kamienna ammunition plant used thousands of Jews at any one time. The existence of such camps in 1945 must mean that a huge number of Jews were used for work. This in the mind of any rational person the Fahrplan train schedules would provide reasonable doubt of the mass murder narrative, proof is not necessary. Any ex law enforcement officer would know that their job is not to find anyone innocent but to prove beyond reasonable doubt that such a crime occurred. The holocaust promotors have not done this.

You have dishonestly framed this as you do not need proof, I do. You do that because you know that I have the evidence to prove what happened at TII and you do not. At least you acknowledge your case is very weak.

[Nazgul]

You have dishonestly framed this as you do not need proof, I do. You do that because you know that I have the evidence to prove what happened at TII and you do not. At least you acknowledge your case is very weak.

The transport schedules is sufficient to provide reasonable doubt as to the fact that it is claimed that every person on those transports went to a final destination, Treblinka. In a court of law apart from Nuremberg I do not think a guilty plea would result unless the jurors were all pretenders and biased. There is reasonable doubt.

[Nessie]

You have dishonestly framed this as you do not need proof, I do. You do that because you know that I have the evidence to prove what happened at TII and you do not. At least you acknowledge your case is very weak.

The transport schedules is sufficient to provide reasonable doubt as to the fact that it is claimed that every person on those transports went to a final destination, Treblinka. In a court of law apart from Nuremberg I do not think a guilty plea would result unless the jurors were all pretenders and biased. There is reasonable doubt.

The reason why you have fooled yourself into thinking there is reasonable doubt, is because you have cherry picked one piece of evidence and then applied an interpretation to it, that is contradicted by evidence people were guarded and not let off the trains till they arrived at TII.

[Nazgul]

The reason why you have fooled yourself into thinking there is reasonable doubt, is because you have cherry picked one piece of evidence and then applied an interpretation to it, that is contradicted by evidence people were guarded and not let off the trains till they arrived at TII.

And of course they survived. It is quite possible, in fact probable that those destined for the Treblinka region were put into wagons and not let out until they arrived at the destination. It is also probable that those destined for instance to say Skykazo Kam were put into another wagon or wagons; it would not make sense to remove people from different wagons, the sorting done prior to dispatch. When Pierre Berg was caught by the Gestapo in France for using an illegal radio, they immediatly said "A" meaning Auschwitz. When rolling stock, say coal is sent to various places, those going to the first place are put near the rear and removed, other wagons are put on, empty in some cases.
As Jews did arrive at Jewish Labour camps by trains, schedules must have been made for those transports. Fahrplan documents are not just for certain camps then, but for many special train schedules, even today.

[TlsMS93]

You have dishonestly framed this as you do not need proof, I do. You do that because you know that I have the evidence to prove what happened at TII and you do not. At least you acknowledge your case is very weak.

You don't have the 2,400 tons of ash that 800,000 bodies would generate as claimed. You can only convict someone based on what is found, if they found a fraction of that then only the Germans or whoever can be tried and convicted.

[Nazgul]

You don't have the 2,400 tons of ash that 800,000 bodies would generate as claimed. You can only convict someone based on what is found, if they found a fraction of that then only the Germans or whoever can be tried and convicted.

There are many instances of people being convicted of murder where no murder weapon or even body is found. Circumstantial evidence is enough for jurors to convict.

[Nessie]

You have dishonestly framed this as you do not need proof, I do. You do that because you know that I have the evidence to prove what happened at TII and you do not. At least you acknowledge your case is very weak.

You don't have the 2,400 tons of ash that 800,000 bodies would generate as claimed. You can only convict someone based on what is found, if they found a fraction of that then only the Germans or whoever can be tried and convicted.

Show me your evidence to prove that amount of "ash" is not buried at TII. When an area of 2 hectares, up to 7m deep is found to contain cremated human remains, that is the largest mass grave site area ever found. No plague, genocide or war has resulted in a mass grave site that big. The closest are, not coincidentally, the areas found at Sobibor, Belzec and Chelmno.

[Nazgul]

Rubbish, it is normal for revisionists to claim that instead of being gassed, Jews were being sent to be resettled in the east.

They went and came back. Losing a war tends to do this.

Until you evidence the Jewish populations in the camps, all you have is a very basic map of camps, which is insufficient to prove millions of Jews still alive in 1945.

Each of those camps were identified by survivors, not made up; there are still many more unknown, this is still work in progress. The fact that those camps moved westwards is evidence of the westward movement of Jews. This has to be taken in context also of the train schedules that stopped at camps. When I compared the train schedules and stops to the labour camps for Jews, it is clear the reality of the situation. You continue to use Hilbergs thoughts that the transports did not stop, therefore you continue with the eastern drive. We all know that some did head to the east; we know that many, not all came back to survive the war. Your task is to prove, or provide some compelling evidence, the vast majority of Jews did not exist in those labour camps. The burden of proof is on you. I know you cannot but will regurgitate the old nonsense again and again.

[TlsMS93]

There are many instances of people being convicted of murder where no murder weapon or even body is found. Circumstantial evidence is enough for jurors to convict.

It depends on what type of law we are talking about, customary or positive, there is a lot of difference where it is applied.

[TlsMS93]

Show me your evidence to prove that amount of "ash" is not buried at TII. When an area of 2 hectares, up to 7m deep is found to contain cremated human remains, that is the largest mass grave site area ever found. No plague, genocide or war has resulted in a mass grave site that big. The closest are, not coincidentally, the areas found at Sobibor, Belzec and Chelmno.

Anyone who sees it thinks that it has been proven that there is a perfect rectangular area with these measurements. No, an excavation was found in a place with this depth, and if I trust the 1945 investigation, I have every right to doubt it. Is there a video of the investigation process? What tools were used? Hoes and shovels? If they wanted to prove that the soil was 10 meters deep, they would just have to dig deeper. Who would claim that it was not undisturbed soil? Lidar did not find anything similar or that matched the testimony of the witnesses, and the Kula process was not copied. If the 1945 investigation were sufficient, there would be no need for any subsequent investigation, so the 1945 investigation was flawed.

[Nessie]

Rubbish, it is normal for revisionists to claim that instead of being gassed, Jews were being sent to be resettled in the east.

They went and came back. Losing a war tends to do this.

Until you evidence the Jewish populations in the camps, all you have is a very basic map of camps, which is insufficient to prove millions of Jews still alive in 1945.

Each of those camps were identified by survivors, not made up; there are still many more unknown, this is still work in progress. The fact that those camps moved westwards is evidence of the westward movement of Jews. This has to be taken in context also of the train schedules that stopped at camps. When I compared the train schedules and stops to the labour camps for Jews, it is clear the reality of the situation. You continue to use Hilbergs thoughts that the transports did not stop, therefore you continue with the eastern drive. We all know that some did head to the east; we know that many, not all came back to survive the war. Your task is to prove, or provide some compelling evidence, the vast majority of Jews did not exist in those labour camps. The burden of proof is on you. I know you cannot but will regurgitate the old nonsense again and again.

In previous discussions, you provided a description of a transport, by a SS guard, who stated that stops were to change guards and repair damage to the carriages to stop escapes and no one was let off. All the witnesses on the transports describe being trapped in carriages for hours, if not days and no one getting off. So, the witnesses all disagree with your theory. You cannot name a single witness who got off a transport to an AR camp.

I then looked at the camps near to the stops and found they were all small and made up of local people. They were closed down, as those people were sent to ghettos or camps and they had all closed before TII closed. There is no evidence they took people from the transports.

You ignore that evidence and regurgitate the same nonsense, for which you have no evidence. For example, the westward movement of Jews. You have produced no evidence of numbers, despite claiming for a long time now, you were looking for evidence.

[Nessie]

Show me your evidence to prove that amount of "ash" is not buried at TII. When an area of 2 hectares, up to 7m deep is found to contain cremated human remains, that is the largest mass grave site area ever found. No plague, genocide or war has resulted in a mass grave site that big. The closest are, not coincidentally, the areas found at Sobibor, Belzec and Chelmno.

Anyone who sees it thinks that it has been proven that there is a perfect rectangular area with these measurements. No, an excavation was found in a place with this depth, and if I trust the 1945 investigation, I have every right to doubt it. Is there a video of the investigation process? What tools were used? Hoes and shovels? If they wanted to prove that the soil was 10 meters deep, they would just have to dig deeper. Who would claim that it was not undisturbed soil? Lidar did not find anything similar or that matched the testimony of the witnesses, and the Kula process was not copied. If the 1945 investigation were sufficient, there would be no need for any subsequent investigation, so the 1945 investigation was flawed.

The 1945 investigation had the most basic of tools and staff. It is right that further investigations have been carried out by archaeologists with modern technology.

Lidar maps the surface. GPR and electrical resistance surveys found rectilinear pits in the areas of the camp that witnesses said mass graves were located.

[HansHill]

You ignore that evidence and regurgitate the same nonsense, for which you have no evidence. For example, the westward movement of Jews. You have produced no evidence of numbers, despite claiming for a long time now, you were looking for evidence.

All material evidence points to the murders not happening, thats the point. The murder weapon as described is not feasible, and you do not have 700,000 bodies.

Occams Razor does the rest of the heavy lifting for us!

[Nessie]

You ignore that evidence and regurgitate the same nonsense, for which you have no evidence. For example, the westward movement of Jews. You have produced no evidence of numbers, despite claiming for a long time now, you were looking for evidence.

All material evidence points to the murders not happening, thats the point.

That is incorrect. When every single witness who worked at an AR camp, Chelmno or A-B Krema states it was used for gassings and there is evidence to corroborate them, all the material evidence points to murders happening. You cannot evidence an alternative.

The murder weapon as described is not feasible,

That is you admitting to your reliance on the logically flawed argument from incredulity.

and you do not have 700,000 bodies.

There is evidence to prove at least that buried at the camp. You have no evidence of 700,000 people still alive in 1944, having left TII.

Occams Razor does the rest of the heavy lifting for us!

Occams razor supports the evidenced over the unevidenced.