Kula vs Tauber on "Kula columns"

[HansHill]

Lol are you arguing that the Germans couldn't figure out how to get tiny pellets to fall into a container? the container would be lower than where the pellets fell, and would fall further when slots were opened, relying on the mysterious force known as GRAVITY. the third column would just have to have sloped sides.

Why don't you explain it to us?

The better arguments I think you have against this

The "best" arguments will become known and hopefully discussed when you explain the device in both form and function.

The difference between orthodoxy and revisionism is the gaps are in comparison microscopic for orthodoxy - eg a mechanism used for killing is not described in full

Why are we pretending that understanding the alleged murder weapon used to kill hundreds of thousands of people is not of vital importance?

[bombsaway]

Lol are you arguing that the Germans couldn't figure out how to get tiny pellets to fall into a container? the container would be lower than where the pellets fell, and would fall further when slots were opened, relying on the mysterious force known as GRAVITY. the third column would just have to have sloped sides.

Why don't you explain it to us?

The better arguments I think you have against this

The "best" arguments will become known and hopefully discussed when you explain the device in both form and function.

The difference between orthodoxy and revisionism is the gaps are in comparison microscopic for orthodoxy - eg a mechanism used for killing is not described in full

Why are we pretending that understanding the alleged murder weapon used to kill hundreds of thousands of people is not of vital importance?

I did explain it, what, you want to know how the slots may have been opened to let the granules fall into the container? You think I can't do that?

There's not enough information to allow a complete reconstruction of the mechanism in all its aspects. I think the system I'm describing is certainly possible though, it's something a clever middle schooler could probably figure out.

[HansHill]

Lol are you arguing that the Germans couldn't figure out how to get tiny pellets to fall into a container? the container would be lower than where the pellets fell, and would fall further when slots were opened, relying on the mysterious force known as GRAVITY. the third column would just have to have sloped sides.

Why don't you explain it to us?

The better arguments I think you have against this

The "best" arguments will become known and hopefully discussed when you explain the device in both form and function.

The difference between orthodoxy and revisionism is the gaps are in comparison microscopic for orthodoxy - eg a mechanism used for killing is not described in full

Why are we pretending that understanding the alleged murder weapon used to kill hundreds of thousands of people is not of vital importance?

I did explain it, what, you want to know how the slots may have been opened to let the granules fall into the container? You think I can't do that?

I'm a frequent poster on a Holocaust Revisionism board, you can bet your bottom shekel I want to know. So enlighten us - Who opened the slots? Were they operated via chain? Rod? Pulley? Gears? Did the same person close / release the slots? How? Via release pin? Reversing the gears? Raising a pulley? Was it all manual? Was it mechanized? Motorized? Did it consume fuel? Was it heavy? Did it require lubricant? Was it a one man job? Or 4-man job?

There's not enough information to allow a complete reconstruction of the mechanism in all its aspects. I think the system I'm describing is certainly possible though, it's something a clever middle schooler could probably figure out.

We're not talking about middle schoolers, we are talking about the Third Reich - what did the metalworking workshop, under orders from the Central Construction Office (in turn, I assume, under orders from Hoss?) figure out?

[bombsaway]

I can't give you actual details on this precise mechanism, just as you can't give me actual details on ANYTHING that happened the millions of Jews who were resettled in USSR once the ghettos were closed down.

But I can speculate (in line with all the other evidence we have about the columns) that as the basket was lowered, it pushed down on hooks that pulled open the slots which were held up by a spring mechanism

the bottom of the basket pulls down the hooks which open the slots above, whatever the height of the basket is

The basket is lowered and raised through inner column which pellets are not dropped into due to the distributor. the slots are at the bottom of the inner column. after pellets gassing is over, the distributor is removed and basket lowered into inner column.

does this make sense?

[Archie]

Lol are you arguing that the Germans couldn't figure out how to get tiny pellets to fall into a container?

Oh, I am certain the Germans could have figured out how to build a proper gas chamber. EASILY. They would have had competent people design something that would have actually worked. Instead of this jerry-rigged, Rube Goldberg nonsense you are describing.

[Archie]

I can't give you actual details on this precise mechanism, just as you can't give me actual details on ANYTHING that happened the millions of Jews who were resettled in USSR once the ghettos were closed down.

But I can speculate (in line with all the other evidence we have about the columns) that as the basket was lowered, it pushed down on hooks that pulled open the slots which were held up by a spring mechanism

the bottom of the basket pulls down the hooks which open the slots above, whatever the height of the basket is

The basket is lowered and raised through inner column which pellets are not dropped into due to the distributor. the slots are at the bottom of the inner column. after pellets gassing is over, the distributor is removed and basket lowered into inner column.

does this make sense?

No, it doesn't make sense.

Kula (supposedly) built these things and he says nothing about any of that shit.

In Tauber's version, the pellets were simply in the can.

[bombsaway]

No, it doesn't make sense.

Kula (supposedly) built these things and he says nothing about any of that shit.

In Tauber's version, the pellets were simply in the can.

In Tauber's description they are "poured into the gas chamber" so they weren't lowered in a can. He also uses the word basket or box, according to Mattogno. Plausibly the can may have been rectangular. Maybe Nessie is right and the method changed at a certain point.

So Tauber's testimony doesn't contradict my description, neither does Kula's. My " Rube Goldberg nonsense" was literally a sentence or two, again a simple mechanism that could be designed by a middle schooler. Maybe there is an easier way to do it, but that wouldn't be tough. It's entirely subjective for you to call this nonsense, you cannot qualify such a statement. By the way to call it nonsense is an insult, though you might qualify it is saying, well it self evidently is nonsense. When I say you're insane (which is half hyperbolic, I do think there is a pathology there, though admittedly a minor one compared to most pathologies - I'll probably do a post about this later) I have qualified this much more, pointing directly to enormous double standards.

When you say Kula "says nothing about any of that shit" ( again the derision here is barely masked) as if it is evidence that the story is BS, you neglect to grapple with the fact that this a minor detail (how the pellets got into the basket). The Nazis had plenty of opportunity while in power to say that resettlement in USSR was happening, Himmler had a chance to say it in his "denial" to Masur, and yet not a word of this population transfer, probably the largest in history, was spoken of by him or of anyone else, except in the Korherr report, a deeply suspect document which Himmler himself called into question with his mention of it being great camouflage. I think that you cannot use this line of reasoning - the absence - unless you address the far greater absence of enormous elements in the revisionist narrative. I refuse to humor such reasoning.

[Archie]

In Tauber's description they are "poured into the gas chamber" so they weren't lowered in a can. He also uses the word basket or box, according to Mattogno. Plausibly the can may have been rectangular. Maybe Nessie is right and the method changed at a certain point.

Can you quote/cite the part of the Tauber's statement you are referring to? Where does he say "poured into the gas chamber"?

The people going to be gassed and those in the gas chamber damaged the electrical installations, tearing the cables out and damaging the ventilation equipment. The door was closed hermetically from the corridor side by means of [two] iron bars (see Document 11] which were screwed tight [by means of two angled bolts which screwed through the catches onto the bars, which were themselves fitted with handles]. The roof of the gas chamber was supported by concrete pillars running down the middle of its length [1/1 to 1/7]. On either side of these pillars there were four others [C I to C4], two on each side. [Here Tauber is mistaken. This arrangement is found only in the gas chamber of Krematorium III. In Kr II, they were in a row down the east side of the room]. The sides of these pillars, which went up through the roof, were of heavy wire mesh. Inside this grid. there was another of finer mesh and inside that a third of very fine mesh. Inside this last mesh cage there was a removable can that was pulled out with a wire to recover the [inert] pellets from which the gas had evaporated.

Pressac, pg. 484 (see also Van Pelt, pg. 191)
https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-his ... 0484.shtml

I am going on Tauber's statement above along with Van Pelt's drawing. If you were to simply pour the pellets in at the top, Van Pelt shows no mechanism to get all the pellets into that little can.

I'm not saying Tauber didn't say that anywhere, I'm just not recalling it. So I would be interested to see that part as we would then need to reconcile that with the can and with Van Pelt's drawing.

Now, Kula certainly does say it was poured from the top.

The content of a Zyklon can was poured from above in [on] the distributor cone, which allowed for an equal distribution of the Zyklon to all four sides of the column. After the evaporation of the gas, the entire central column was extracted and the evaporated [depleted] silica [carrier] removed.

Here is Germar's drawing of this "distributor cone."

[bombsaway]

It's in this thread.

"Through the window of the "boiler room", I observed how the "Cyklon" was poured into the gas chamber. Each transport was followed by a vehicle with Red Cross markings which entered the yard of the crematorium, carrying the camp doctor, Mengele, accompanied by Rottenfuhrer Scheimetz. They took the cans of "Cyklon" from the car and put them beside the small chimneys used to introduce the "Cyklon" into the gas chamber. There Scheimtetz opened them with a special cold chisel and a hammer, then poured the contents into the gas chamber. Then he closed the orifice with a concrete cover. As there were four similar chimneys, Scheimetz poured into each the contents of one of the smallest cans of "Cyklon", which had yellow labels pasted right round them. Before opening the cans, Scheimetz put on a gasmask which he wore while opening the cans and pouring in the product."

[Archie]

It's in this thread.

"Through the window of the "boiler room", I observed how the "Cyklon" was poured into the gas chamber. Each transport was followed by a vehicle with Red Cross markings which entered the yard of the crematorium, carrying the camp doctor, Mengele, accompanied by Rottenfuhrer Scheimetz. They took the cans of "Cyklon" from the car and put them beside the small chimneys used to introduce the "Cyklon" into the gas chamber. There Scheimtetz opened them with a special cold chisel and a hammer, then poured the contents into the gas chamber. Then he closed the orifice with a concrete cover. As there were four similar chimneys, Scheimetz poured into each the contents of one of the smallest cans of "Cyklon", which had yellow labels pasted right round them. Before opening the cans, Scheimetz put on a gasmask which he wore while opening the cans and pouring in the product."

What statement is that? Where did you pull that from? I'm not seeing in the deposition quoted in full by Pressac.

[bombsaway]

https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=82890

[Archie]

https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=82890

Hmm, that's the same May 24 deposition, but the text is not the same as what Pressac published. And Pressac says he reproduced it "in its entirety."

I felt that it should be presented in its entirety and in a form as close as possible to the original. I used two translations of the Polish text, one by Mrs Dorota Ryszka and the other by Mr Adam Rutkowski, translations that I have adapted by including my own remarks and references so that the reader, too, can let himself be guided by Henryk Tauber.

https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-his ... 0481.shtml

Pressac's version of the deposition does not have what you quoted. I will look into this discrepancy later.

The AHF post provides no source for the text.

[bombsaway]

It appears all over the place. You're questioning whether that quote may have been fabricated? I guess that means you don't like what Tauber said.

Maybe Pressac just made a mistake if it's not in there.

[Archie]

It appears all over the place. You're questioning whether that quote may have been fabricated? I guess that means you don't like what Tauber said.

Maybe Pressac just made a mistake if it's not in there.

Not fabricated, but sometimes there are multiple versions of a statement, or people are sloppy. Tauber is Pressac's star witness and he makes a huge deal about him, so it would be odd if he simply flubbed the statement.

The Chronicles of Terror version seems to have the section in question in a different translation.
https://zapisyterroru.pl/dlibra/publica ... 64/content

They would take Zyklon B cans out of that Red Cross truck and place them near the chimneys through which the gas was poured into the chamber. Scheimetz would open them with a special chisel and hammer, pour the cans’ contents into the chamber, and cover the opening with a concrete slab. As I have mentioned earlier, there were four such chimneys. Scheimetz poured the contents of one small can of Zyklon B into each of them. The cans had a yellow label. Before opening the cans, Scheimetz put on a gas mask. Wearing the mask, he opened the cans of Zyklon B and poured their contents through the openings into the gas chamber. Besides Scheimetz, there were also other specially designated SS men who did that job.

This description is pretty vague. But I would agree that by itself it seems to suggest indiscriminate pouring rather than lowering a container. However, we must reconcile this with the rest of his story.

The roof of the gas chamber was supported in the middle by concrete pillars. To the left and to the right of these pillars, there were four others. The outer sides of the pillars were covered with thick wire mesh, which ran up to the ceiling and above. Behind the wire mesh, there was another with smaller holes and a third, denser one inside it. Inside the third mesh, there was a movable box, which we emptied of powder, using a wire, when the gas had already evaporated.

There is no mechanism described that would explain how the pellets were collected into the can/box. And according to Van Pelt's drawing, there was no such mechanism.

[Archie]

Various translations of Tauber have already been posted. Here's the original Polish of the key part.

Original Polish

Sklepienie komory gazowej oparte było na cementowych filarach w środku swej szerokości. Na lewo i na prawo od tych filarów znajdowały się cztery słupy. Zewnętrzną ścianę tych słupów stanowiły kraty z grubego drutu, biegnące aż po sufit i na zewnątrz. Za tą ścianą znajdowała się druga siatka z drobniejszymi oczkami i otworami, a w niej trzecia gęsta. W tej trzeciej siatce poruszało się pudełko, którym wyciągano przy pomocy drutu proszek, z którego wyparował już gaz.

Google Translate

The ceiling of the gas chamber rested upon cement pillars situated in the middle of its width. To the left and right of these pillars stood four columns. The outer face of these columns consisted of grilles made of thick wire, extending all the way to the ceiling and outward. Behind this barrier lay a second mesh with finer openings, and within it, a third, dense mesh. Inside this third mesh moved a small box, used—with the aid of a wire—to extract the powder from which the gas had already evaporated.

GPT Translation

The ceiling of the gas chamber was supported by concrete pillars located along the middle of its width. To the left and right of these pillars there were four columns. The outer wall of these columns consisted of grates made of thick wire, extending up to the ceiling and outward. Behind this wall there was a second mesh with smaller openings, and within it a third, denser one. Inside this third mesh moved a box, by means of which, using a wire, the substance from which the gas had already evaporated was pulled out.

The word translated box or small box is pudełko which is the diminutive of pudło (“box”). So some sort of (small) container.

The word powder (which is also used in the Chronicles of Terror translation) seems a bit weird here. The original word is proszek which seems to mean powder most commonly. Here it seems to refer to the pellets. That does not seem fine enough to say powder in English but perhaps the Polish word is a bit more versatile.