Callafangers' statements of fact / rebuttable presumptions about Belzec and Sobibor

[bombsaway]

I think it's just unclear that the direction was "worked through" as you say.

Actually it's explicit they didn't do this lol, and you quoted this earlier!

“Excavation research covered only boundary area of mass graves and only to the extent specified by the representative of the Chief Rabbi of Poland… they were conducted until buried or unburied human remains were encountered in large quantities or in situ, i.e. until there were no obvious traces, confirming their grave nature.”

Very curious as to how you will interpret this, I've never seen you give up on a point, no matter how unreasonable.

bombsaway, you are a crackhead. Stop smoking crack.

He is referring to the 'boundaries' as defined by the Chief Rabbi of Poland which had to do with excavating the graves until traces of large quantities of human remains (or remains which have thus far been untouched) are reached. Highlighted in green above.

How are you this terrible at reading comprehension? This is embarrassing.

If this is true, I would expect to find at least one description that makes it clear they were doing this, doing Kola type full drillings. There's like 10 mentions of digging around edges.

Why don't we put this question to an LLM?

As is usually the case, the true ridiculousness by you is the doubling down, then doubling down again. There is no ambiguity allowed.

[Stubble]

Bombsaway, look at the damn picture of the spoil. For fuck's sake...

'Fangers is correct, the dig damn near traverses the entire pit, the 'depth probing' section is just in that corner, but, a large amount of spoil was taken from the grave at large.

Of note, spoil produced was 'clean fill', not 'layers of cremains'.

[bombsaway]

Bombsaway, look at the damn picture of the spoil. For fuck's sake...

'Fangers is correct, the dig damn near traverses the entire pit, the 'depth probing' section is just in that corner, but, a large amount of spoil was taken from the grave at large.

Of note, spoil produced was 'clean fill', not 'layers of cremains'.

What picture? How do you they dug in the middle of graves vs along the edges?

[Callafangers]

If this is true, I would expect to find at least one description that makes it clear they were doing this, doing Kola type full drillings. There's like 10 mentions of digging around edges.

Why don't we put this question to an LLM?

As is usually the case, the true ridiculousness by you is the doubling down, then doubling down again. There is no ambiguity allowed.

bombsaway, the only definition of any sort of "boundary" in investigating the graves is that of the Chief Rabbi of Poland, for whom it is made clear the boundary is finding large amounts of corpse material or corpse material in situ.

You have invented additional "boundaries" which aren't claimed by anyone but you.



Are you asking me to throw you some crumbs just to be "nice"? I won't do it -- we are all adults here and facts and reason matter more than niceties.

With that said, if you're in the USA, I hope you had a nice Thanksgiving.

[Wetzelrad]

Is it - True. - or - False. - that; at least one grave containing the remains of at least one person has been archaeologically / forensically / scientifically discovered within the boundary of the Sobibor camp - ??

Definitely true.

If it's any help, consider this debate from the perspective of a neutral observer. What or who is he likely to be convinced by? Person A, who claims that there is evidence of 180,000 people buried at Sobibor, or Person B, who claims that there are 0-10 persons buried there?

I fear Person A is probably more likely to be believed. Being shown any evidence of human remains will push the observer in that direction -- any evidence at all, whether it's a photo of gray soil, a textual description of decaying biological matter, or the common claim of bone fragments in the topsoil. That's it. That is in fact exactly how the narrative has been upheld over the last decade.

Therefore the more sensible approach is to point out that evidence of any death is not evidence of murder, and evidence even of up to tens of thousands of deaths is not evidence of 180,000 murders, and also that the archaelogical claims that have been made do not match those of the witnesses and historians. The person who takes this position is definitely more believable than Persons A and B. Indeed, it's exactly this kind of imperfect revisionism that has overwhelmed the exterminationist narratives for camps like Dachau, Buchenwald, and Belsen.

[bombsaway]

If this is true, I would expect to find at least one description that makes it clear they were doing this, doing Kola type full drillings. There's like 10 mentions of digging around edges.

Why don't we put this question to an LLM?

As is usually the case, the true ridiculousness by you is the doubling down, then doubling down again. There is no ambiguity allowed.

bombsaway, the only definition of any sort of "boundary" in investigating the graves is that of the Chief Rabbi of Poland, for whom it is made clear the boundary is finding large amounts of corpse material or corpse material in situ.

You have invented additional "boundaries" which aren't claimed by anyone but you.



Are you asking me to throw you some crumbs just to be "nice"? I won't do it -- we are all adults here and facts and reason matter more than niceties.

With that said, if you're in the USA, I hope you had a nice Thanksgiving.

Yes I hope you had one as well.

The issue is not about being 'nice' but a question of ascertaining reality. You (and all revisionists) view reality in extremely black and white terms, eg with resettlement, possibility is treated as certainty.

But I want to be sure I am understanding you correctly. From the study:

“Our research expedition began in the autumn of 2012 and was continued in the spring of 2013. Its main objective was to verify the function of mass graves 1, 2 and 7… Despite having the results of the survey research made with geological drill, only excavation work could resolve doubts about the function of the graves.”

So they didn't do the usual borehole work but dug.

Is it your assertion that they didn't dig around the edges of the graves as established by previous studies (while slowly pushing inward if no remains were found), but rather excavated the whole top layer (or substantial parts of it) and went down until they hit remains?

[Nessie]

Is it - True. - or - False. - that; at least one grave containing the remains of at least one person has been archaeologically / forensically / scientifically discovered within the boundary of the Sobibor camp - ??

Definitely true.

If it's any help, consider this debate from the perspective of a neutral observer. What or who is he likely to be convinced by? Person A, who claims that there is evidence of 180,000 people buried at Sobibor, or Person B, who claims that there are 0-10 persons buried there?

I fear Person A is probably more likely to be believed. Being shown any evidence of human remains will push the observer in that direction -- any evidence at all, whether it's a photo of gray soil, a textual description of decaying biological matter, or the common claim of bone fragments in the topsoil. That's it. That is in fact exactly how the narrative has been upheld over the last decade.

Therefore the more sensible approach is to point out that evidence of any death is not evidence of murder, and evidence even of up to tens of thousands of deaths is not evidence of 180,000 murders, and also that the archaelogical claims that have been made do not match those of the witnesses and historians. The person who takes this position is definitely more believable than Persons A and B. Indeed, it's exactly this kind of imperfect revisionism that has overwhelmed the exterminationist narratives for camps like Dachau, Buchenwald, and Belsen.

I think not enough has been done, to determine when cremations began and the burials stopped, which means that the mass graves could have been much smaller than so-called revisionists think. I also thought cremations started in early 1943, but now think it was months earlier, in 1942.

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/ ... le/sobibor

"In the summer of 1942, camp personnel deployed Jewish forced laborers from various locations in Lublin District to exhume the mass graves at Sobibor. They then ordered the forced laborers to burn the bodies on open-air “ovens” made from rail track. This measure aligned with the efforts of the Sonderkommando 1005"

Aktion 1005 started in June 1942. If cremations started in June 1942, that means, since Sobibor opened in May 1942, possibly only one month's transports, resulted in burials. There is evidence cremations started at TII in September 1942, and if that was also the case at Sobibor, then burials only took place for 5 months.

For all of the AR camps, if cremations started by September 1942, mean that the graves were much smaller than if it is assumed all people killed there, were buried.

Using this transport list, up to the end of September 1942, estimating 1000 arrived on the transports with no totals, then 75,000 people had arrived at the camp. It is entirelt possible, graves were only dug for 75,000, before the cremations started.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/tr ... to-sobibor

[Callafangers]

Yes I hope you had one as well.

The issue is not about being 'nice' but a question of ascertaining reality. You (and all revisionists) view reality in extremely black and white terms, eg with resettlement, possibility is treated as certainty.

But I want to be sure I am understanding you correctly. From the study:

“Our research expedition began in the autumn of 2012 and was continued in the spring of 2013. Its main objective was to verify the function of mass graves 1, 2 and 7… Despite having the results of the survey research made with geological drill, only excavation work could resolve doubts about the function of the graves.”

So they didn't do the usual borehole work but dug.

Is it your assertion that they didn't dig around the edges of the graves as established by previous studies (while slowly pushing inward if no remains were found), but rather excavated the whole top layer (or substantial parts of it) and went down until they hit remains?

bombsaway, I spent a good deal of time on this today just trying to be crystal-clear. I want to acknowledge and be fair to you in admitting that your interpretation on some of the key terms (for Grave 5, specifically) was more accurate than my own. Although my interpretation is valid from a non-specialist view (definitions align), upon closer inspection, it appears that specialized archaeological terms (reconnoiter, range, boundary) have more specific applications than what these terms can mean in more conventional/non-specialized language.

All of that said, this topic has become of enough intrigue that I feel it deserves its own thread which distinguishes it and allows others to contribute. I'm going to create a new one in the main Debate forum, summarizing what I have found throughout the day so far and welcoming you and others to share your thoughts.

I'll add a link to the thread here once I post it.

[HansHill]

I think not enough has been done, to determine when cremations began and the burials stopped, which means that the mass graves could have been much smaller than so-called revisionists think. I also thought cremations started in early 1943, but now think it was months earlier, in 1942.

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/ ... le/sobibor

"In the summer of 1942, camp personnel deployed Jewish forced laborers from various locations in Lublin District to exhume the mass graves at Sobibor. They then ordered the forced laborers to burn the bodies on open-air “ovens” made from rail track. This measure aligned with the efforts of the Sonderkommando 1005"

Aktion 1005 started in June 1942. If cremations started in June 1942, that means, since Sobibor opened in May 1942, possibly only one month's transports, resulted in burials. There is evidence cremations started at TII in September 1942, and if that was also the case at Sobibor, then burials only took place for 5 months.

For all of the AR camps, if cremations started by September 1942, mean that the graves were much smaller than if it is assumed all people killed there, were buried.

Using this transport list, up to the end of September 1942, estimating 1000 arrived on the transports with no totals, then 75,000 people had arrived at the camp. It is entirelt possible, graves were only dug for 75,000, before the cremations started.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/tr ... to-sobibor

Surely this is Nessie's best (worst) post of all time, and seriously is a contender for the Hall Of Fame?

I think not enough has been done, to determine when cremations began and the burials stopped

He's just admitted everything he has been shilling for decades is a wild goose chase. Mister "evidence is my favourite word" has just realized he doesn't have any, and that it's all a house of cards. Nessie, yes you are right for once. Welcome to the world of Holocaust Revisionism. I will give you a guided tour once you are ready to embark on your journey

mean that the graves were much smaller than if it is assumed

Mister "56 god damn swimming pools" is finally going to drop this garbage! You saw it here first, folks!

[Callafangers]

New thread, branches from our current discussion here:

Sobibór: Kola-Mazurek Discrepancies and Implications
viewtopic.php?p=19317

[Nessie]

I think not enough has been done, to determine when cremations began and the burials stopped, which means that the mass graves could have been much smaller than so-called revisionists think. I also thought cremations started in early 1943, but now think it was months earlier, in 1942.

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/ ... le/sobibor

"In the summer of 1942, camp personnel deployed Jewish forced laborers from various locations in Lublin District to exhume the mass graves at Sobibor. They then ordered the forced laborers to burn the bodies on open-air “ovens” made from rail track. This measure aligned with the efforts of the Sonderkommando 1005"

Aktion 1005 started in June 1942. If cremations started in June 1942, that means, since Sobibor opened in May 1942, possibly only one month's transports, resulted in burials. There is evidence cremations started at TII in September 1942, and if that was also the case at Sobibor, then burials only took place for 5 months.

For all of the AR camps, if cremations started by September 1942, mean that the graves were much smaller than if it is assumed all people killed there, were buried.

Using this transport list, up to the end of September 1942, estimating 1000 arrived on the transports with no totals, then 75,000 people had arrived at the camp. It is entirelt possible, graves were only dug for 75,000, before the cremations started.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/tr ... to-sobibor

Surely this is Nessie's best (worst) post of all time, and seriously is a contender for the Hall Of Fame?

I think not enough has been done, to determine when cremations began and the burials stopped

He's just admitted everything he has been shilling for decades is a wild goose chase. Mister "evidence is my favourite word" has just realized he doesn't have any, and that it's all a house of cards. Nessie, yes you are right for once. Welcome to the world of Holocaust Revisionism. I will give you a guided tour once you are ready to embark on your journey

mean that the graves were much smaller than if it is assumed

Mister "56 god damn swimming pools" is finally going to drop this garbage! You saw it here first, folks!

Yet again I produced evidence, and all you have in response is ridicule. The issue of when burials stopped and cremations began, has not been highlighted in debates here. Of course, you are not interested in such evidence, because you need all the corpses to be buried, to sustain your incredulity about how could that be possible? If you have to admit that only a small proportion of the corses were buried, then your incredulity is harder to sustain.

[Keen]

Yet again I produced evidence

A - $100.00 reward - is being offered for each one of the 24 alleged graves / cremation pits in question that is proven - with the same standard of proof applied in U. S. civil courts - to actually exist and to currently contain the remains of - at least 2 people.

http://thisisaboutscience.com/

What are you waiting for Nesserto?

What are you so afraid of?

[Keen]

I believe your response to the image I pulled from one the Sobibor digs, of grave 5, was 'too many farts for revisionists to explain'.

There were no bodies in wax fat transformation.

Using Hanlon's Razor and trying to be charitable, I made the argument you just made. Basically, 'The data was misinterpreted from the bore studies by Kola because his holocaust goggles are too tight'.

Then Keen leaned in with what has been said about the digs, by Kola and others, and their blatant misrepresentations of what has been found.

I must concede, fraud indeed applies as a descriptor. I apologize for being the one to tell you this, and I didn't want to believe it either. Unfortunately, it is the truth. They are lying.

/shrug

Stubble, I am not sure what you are referring to, here? "Too many farts for revisionists to explain" has never been my words. If you're paraphrasing tongue-in-cheek, please at least link the statement you're basing it upon.

The bodies in wax-fat transformation are reported in the core samples -- not photographed. The term "wax-fat" is mentioned 14 times over the course of the 33 alleged graves reviewed:

https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... camps.html

You can insist they are lying and "apologize for being the one to tell" me anything , but you're now taking on the burden to prove to neutral listeners in the court of public opinion that this entire team has indeed conspired to commit fraud outright. Good luck with that -- the evidence presented so far by you, Keen, etc. does not suffice for this. It is a dead-end, in terms of progressing revisionism. It's the same reason that Keen (Greg Gerdes) has been spamming his famous questions on every message board he can find for the last 20+ years and yet the 'Holocaust' is still widely-accepted by nations globally. Keen is not going to write a book on anything, ever, since his pages would be filled with the same circular, dead-end argumentation he's demonstrated his maximum capacity for. It's useful for promoting the overall paradigm shift (makes you say, "hmmm...") but no intelligent, open-minded person would find it especially compelling or conclusive against the weight of the entire 'Holocaust' establishment. Mattogno, Rudolf, Graf, and others get credit for this -- not Greg Gerdes.

Keen/Greg insist "this is about science" despite the issue clearly not being only about science, since there are obvious political and investigative dimensions which impact how, whether, and to what degree the scientific method can be applied here. Consider:

• Excavations in general are far more often an archaeological specialty than a scientific one. Kola and other teams conducting these investigations are not without basis to apply less-stringent standards, simply digging and documenting as archaeologists generally do
• There is the issue of permission in these diggings: we all know that various jurisdictions (and their rabbis) have prohibited diggings in many cases, or ordered that the diggings be stopped the very moment that 'findings' (corpses) are discovered
• Due to the perceived sensitivity of the topic, we might not expect zoomed-in, high-definition photographs of human skin/hair remains; these likely would not make it onto the final report
• If these excavation teams were really committing fraud to 'prove the Holocaust', you'd think they would have provided something that shows quantities in the range of what the 'Holocaust' alleges -- instead, they solidify that there is orders of magnitude less

The bottom-line is that it has not been proven (not by a long shot) that these teams themselves were deliberately dishonest, rather than simply biased and misguided like the rest of society. There is zero evidence of this, which is why Keen focuses on spamming his usual questions rather than providing actual evidence of fraudulence. If there were clear evidence of fraudulence, revisionists would have zeroed-in on this decades ago and there would be no need to spam the same questions and belligerent insults with big red font, etc., over and over again.

More lies and misinformation spewed from Callafangers festering gob.

By examining each “proven mass grave” allegation separately, an intelligent person can easily see just how utterly vacuous and criminally fraudulent this transparent archaeological hoax really is.

OPENING / FUNDAMENTAL STATEMENT OF FACT: It is alleged in orthodox historiography that; during WW II, the bodies and burnt remains of hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of jews were buried in numerous “huge mass graves” at Belzec, Chelmno, Sobibor and Treblinka II. However, despite all the deceptive allegations to the contrary, the truth is, the largest (in terms of quantity of remains) of the 91 graves / cremation pits in question that are fraudulently alleged to have been “scientifically proven” to currently exist at these four sites, in which verified human remains have been uncovered / tangibly located via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented archaeology, contained the remains of - ONLY SIX PEOPLE.

CLOSING STATEMENT OF FACT: Using the information presented on this website and applying legal standards used in U.S. courts, this website's opening / fundamental statement of fact can be LEGALLY established as fact in a U.S. court.

NO PHYSICAL EVIDENCE - PROVES - NO MASS GRAVES, WHICH - PROVES - ARCHAEOLOGICAL FRAUD

Additionally, and independent of any other reward offered on this website, a reward of - $5,000.00 - will be remitted to anyone who can refute the above closing statement of fact in a publicized debate against Greg Gerdes. Rules are essentially the same as those for the other challenges on this site. Contact Greg Gerdes for details.

http://thisisaboutscience.com/

What are you waiting for Callafangers?

What are you so afraid of?

[Keen]

The only way to interpret potentially thousands of Jews buried at these camps is by at least taking the written reports somewhat seriously.

The only logical and rational way is to hold those who allege that there are "huge mass graves" filled with the remains of thousands of jews within the Sobibor camp to their burden of proof. And when you do that, this is what happens:

By examining each “proven mass grave” allegation separately, an intelligent person can easily see just how utterly vacuous and criminally fraudulent this transparent archaeological hoax really is.

BTW Callafanger, when are you going to give us your statement of fact / rebuttable presumption about Sobibor?

What are you waiting for?

What are you so afraid of?

[Keen]

Where I'm at with it, is that's 'grave 5'... I mean, how much clean fill is that? There's, nothing there... The biggest problem with the 'Huge Mass Graves' hypothesis is, there are to date, no 'Huge Mass Graves'. For the record, before seriously investigating the questions posed by Keen, I had just assumed there was some legitimacy to the 'Huge Mass Graves' claim. Imagine my surprise to discover, there's not...

But it's not just "huge mass grave" #5 - it's all 24 of them. (Though we have been focusing on 1-7 at the moment.)

As Mr. Gerdes has said so many times:

By examining each “proven mass grave” allegation separately, an intelligent person can easily see just how utterly vacuous and criminally fraudulent this transparent archaeological hoax really is.