Page 4 of 12
Re: Operation Reinhardt staff and the T4 connection
Posted: Fri Feb 28, 2025 7:27 pm
by Archie
Numar Patru wrote: ↑Fri Feb 28, 2025 6:10 pm
Weird then that Höß testified way back in 1946 that the gas chambers he ran were improvised.
Well, what could he do? Invent some engineering department that didn't exist? How would that work? So he said he was in charge of designing everything.
What is interesting though is that Hoess's story doesn't really fit the narrative/propaganda at the time which was more in the vein of modern "assembly line" mass murder.
Also, on the Birkenau crematoriums, in Hoess's story these were evidently intended to be extermination facilities with gas chambers. He says nothing to indicate these had to be "converted." Later however even this story would be changed into something more improvised (starting with Pressac it seems). These facilities were built new in 1943 yet had to be converted into gas chambers in a haphazard manner.
Re: Operation Reinhardt staff and the T4 connection
Posted: Fri Feb 28, 2025 7:33 pm
by TlsMS93
In T4 we have permission from Hitler, in the case of the Jews we have nothing. The German civil servant was a cowardly dog and would only do something known to be illegal with a security order from the chain of command.
Re: Operation Reinhardt staff and the T4 connection
Posted: Fri Feb 28, 2025 7:34 pm
by HansHill
Numar Patru wrote: ↑Fri Feb 28, 2025 6:10 pm
Weird then that Höß testified way back in 1946 that the gas chambers he ran were improvised.
>"There are major contradictions at Nuremberg"
We know.
Re: Operation Reinhardt staff and the T4 connection
Posted: Fri Feb 28, 2025 7:39 pm
by Numar Patru
Archie wrote: ↑Fri Feb 28, 2025 7:27 pm
Numar Patru wrote: ↑Fri Feb 28, 2025 6:10 pm
Weird then that Höß testified way back in 1946 that the gas chambers he ran were improvised.
Well, what could he do? Invent some engineering department that didn't exist? How would that work? So he said he was in charge of designing everything.
People testified to working in the Reinhard camps, which no longer existed in 1944. So it seems to me he could have said pretty much anything. Notably, he said it was his adjutant’s idea to try Zyklon-B.
Re: Operation Reinhardt staff and the T4 connection
Posted: Fri Feb 28, 2025 7:40 pm
by Numar Patru
HansHill wrote: ↑Fri Feb 28, 2025 7:34 pm
Numar Patru wrote: ↑Fri Feb 28, 2025 6:10 pm
Weird then that Höß testified way back in 1946 that the gas chambers he ran were improvised.
>"There are major contradictions at Nuremberg"
We know.
Höß was a defense witness at Nuremberg.
Re: Operation Reinhardt staff and the T4 connection
Posted: Fri Feb 28, 2025 7:53 pm
by HansHill
Numar Patru wrote: ↑Fri Feb 28, 2025 7:40 pm
HansHill wrote: ↑Fri Feb 28, 2025 7:34 pm
Numar Patru wrote: ↑Fri Feb 28, 2025 6:10 pm
Weird then that Höß testified way back in 1946 that the gas chambers he ran were improvised.
>"There are major contradictions at Nuremberg"
We know.
Höß was a defense witness at Nuremberg.
Agreed.
Re: Operation Reinhardt staff and the T4 connection
Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2025 1:05 am
by Archie
Numar Patru wrote: ↑Fri Feb 28, 2025 7:39 pm
Archie wrote: ↑Fri Feb 28, 2025 7:27 pm
Numar Patru wrote: ↑Fri Feb 28, 2025 6:10 pm
Weird then that Höß testified way back in 1946 that the gas chambers he ran were improvised.
Well, what could he do? Invent some engineering department that didn't exist? How would that work? So he said he was in charge of designing everything.
People testified to working in the Reinhard camps, which no longer existed in 1944. So it seems to me he could have said pretty much anything. Notably, he said it was his adjutant’s idea to try Zyklon-B.
He also describes himself as being very involved. He says he went to Treblinka to observe their gas chambers and that he designed the extermination procedure at Auschwitz to be more efficient.
I was ordered to establish extermination facilities at Auschwitz in June 1941. At that time there were already in the general government three other extermination camps, BELZEC, TREBLINKA and WOLZEK. These camps were under the Einsatzkommando of the Security Police and SD. I visited Treblinka to find out how they carried out their exterminations. The Camp Commandant at Treblinka told me that he had liquidated 80,000 in the course of one-half year. He was principally concerned with liquidating all the Jews from the Warsaw Ghetto. He used monoxide gas and I did not think that his methods were very efficient. So when I set up the extermination building at Auschwitz, I used Cyclon B, which was crystallized Prussic Acid which we dropped into the death chamber from a small opening.
Re: Operation Reinhardt staff and the T4 connection
Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2025 1:29 am
by Stubble
That doesn't much sound like 't4 personnel' 'using their experience' at least so far as Auschwitz is concerned. Then again, that's not t4. However, this does lead into a question about how mauthausen landed on zyklon b as opposed to carbon monoxide, which would have made much more sense, given the geographical proximity to the supposed t4 homicidal gas chambers and the program.
Apparently though, a completely and wholly unrelated (but identical) set of circumstances happened to play out there as well. Except that they used a handheld blower assembly, not Kula's mythical columns, or St Nicholas's chimneys.
Re: Operation Reinhardt staff and the T4 connection
Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2025 7:41 am
by Nessie
Action T4 and Action Reinhard both needed cooks, drivers and others to support the general operation of the locations they took place in. Not everyone was going to start the engine, or open a gas bottle valve. All the staff were accomplices to murder. They needed to be people who were prepared to be accomplices.
Re: Operation Reinhardt staff and the T4 connection
Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2025 9:00 am
by Stubble
You do understand the t4 cook was deputy commandant and later commandant at treblinka, right?
Re: Operation Reinhardt staff and the T4 connection
Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2025 9:33 am
by Nessie
Stubble wrote: ↑Sat Mar 01, 2025 9:00 am
You do understand the t4 cook was deputy commandant and later commandant at treblinka, right?
Franz's complicity in murder increased as his rank and responsibilities increased. There is not just one level of complicity, there are many.
Re: Operation Reinhardt staff and the T4 connection
Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2025 1:20 pm
by HansHill
Nessie wrote: ↑Sat Mar 01, 2025 7:41 am
All the staff were accomplices to murder.
I was refraining from making this point earlier, because I wanted to wait and see what Nessie would produce but it has been thoroughly unimpressive so I'll go ahead.
This whole point that Nessie is attempting to make is completely redundant and I'll explain why. Here he has let the cat out of the bag that
all staff who worked at a concentration camp / camp network are inherently evil a priori. If I could somehow prove that they were all transferred in from an orphanage, that would not matter. Because they are murderers now, according to Nessie.
By that same logic, whether they came from an orphanage or a jew Killing School, is completely redundant and moronic to pursue as some bizarre tenuous proof of genocide. Even if this link could be demonstrated, it would be entirely redundant anyway, because they are a priori "guilty now".
Nessie: You simply don't like SS men. You don't like that they were being shuffled around the European theater. That's for you to deal with.
Re: Operation Reinhardt staff and the T4 connection
Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2025 8:55 am
by Nessie
HansHill wrote: ↑Sat Mar 01, 2025 1:20 pm
Nessie wrote: ↑Sat Mar 01, 2025 7:41 am
All the staff were accomplices to murder.
I was refraining from making this point earlier, because I wanted to wait and see what Nessie would produce but it has been thoroughly unimpressive so I'll go ahead.
This whole point that Nessie is attempting to make is completely redundant and I'll explain why. Here he has let the cat out of the bag that
all staff who worked at a concentration camp / camp network are inherently evil a priori. If I could somehow prove that they were all transferred in from an orphanage, that would not matter. Because they are murderers now, according to Nessie.
By that same logic, whether they came from an orphanage or a jew Killing School, is completely redundant and moronic to pursue as some bizarre tenuous proof of genocide. Even if this link could be demonstrated, it would be entirely redundant anyway, because they are a priori "guilty now".
Nessie: You simply don't like SS men. You don't like that they were being shuffled around the European theater. That's for you to deal with.
You are dodging that moving an entire staff from one operation to another, is evidence that both operations were very similar and the skills, work requirements and attitudes from the first job transfer so well to the second, that they are intimately linked. T4 staff who had moved on to other work, were called back to again be together for AR. It is strong circumstantial evidence that links the two operations.
Re: Operation Reinhardt staff and the T4 connection
Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2025 2:25 pm
by Stubble
Nessie wrote: ↑Sun Mar 02, 2025 8:55 am
HansHill wrote: ↑Sat Mar 01, 2025 1:20 pm
Nessie wrote: ↑Sat Mar 01, 2025 7:41 am
All the staff were accomplices to murder.
I was refraining from making this point earlier, because I wanted to wait and see what Nessie would produce but it has been thoroughly unimpressive so I'll go ahead.
This whole point that Nessie is attempting to make is completely redundant and I'll explain why. Here he has let the cat out of the bag that
all staff who worked at a concentration camp / camp network are inherently evil a priori. If I could somehow prove that they were all transferred in from an orphanage, that would not matter. Because they are murderers now, according to Nessie.
By that same logic, whether they came from an orphanage or a jew Killing School, is completely redundant and moronic to pursue as some bizarre tenuous proof of genocide. Even if this link could be demonstrated, it would be entirely redundant anyway, because they are a priori "guilty now".
Nessie: You simply don't like SS men. You don't like that they were being shuffled around the European theater. That's for you to deal with.
You are dodging that moving an entire staff from one operation to another, is evidence that both operations were very similar and the skills, work requirements and attitudes from the first job transfer so well to the second, that they are intimately linked. T4 staff who had moved on to other work, were called back to again be together for AR. It is strong circumstantial evidence that links the two operations.
No, that isn't being dodged at all, it is being illustrated as inaccurate and incongruent with the events. An exaggeration to say the least. See page 1 of the thread.
Re: Operation Reinhardt staff and the T4 connection
Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2025 2:54 pm
by Nessie
The German staff connection between T4 and AR is clear. A huge proportion worked on both, far more than would be expected if AR recruited randomly.