Wood Requirements for Outdoor Cremations

[borjastick]

The only way to determine how much wood is needed for mass pyres of thousands of partially decomposed corpses, is to conduct experiments with a lot of partially decomposed corpses. Everything else, is guess work.

Says Nessie running for the hills because he knows his argument is total shite.

You admit that all you have is argument. I prefer evidence. Got any evidence from witnesses who worked inside the AR camps, there were no mass pyres? Have you got any evidence from site surveys and excavations that have found no, or only limited traces of ash and cremated remains? The answer is no, so you produce total shite arguments as to why pyres cannot have happened!

All this from the man who wants to be unburdened by what has been.

A man who thinks if you cannot prove something didn't happen then it must, by default, have happened. Sheesh!

Misrepresenting my arguments is another of your tactics. It is called the strawman logical fallacy.

Logically, if an event cannot be proven to have happened, then it is likely it did not happen, but it could also be the case that it happened, but it did not leave enough evidence to prove the event happened.

An event, such as the relocation and resettlement of millions of Jews in the eastern occupied territory, would leave a lot of evidence. It would require a lot of organisation, generating a large bureaucracy and documentation. There would be the physical evidence of the camps needed to accommodate so many people. Then there are the millions of witnesses, from the prisoners to locals to the SS who guarded them.

Revisionists cannot produce any evidence of that event taking place. Such an event would leave a lot of evidence if it did happen. Therefore, logically, it is proven it did not happen.

The same applies to the wood argument. A lot of cremations would leave a lot of ash and cremains. Excavations at the AR camps sites have established the presence of large areas of ash and cremated remains. Therefore, revisionists doubts are proven to be wrong. The debate about how much wood was needed and where it came from, based on very limited evidence, is merely an incidental exercise that has insignificant evidential value.

Quite clearly you are a fucking idiot.

[Nessie]

....

Quite clearly you are a fucking idiot.

What is the evidential value of a revisionist's calculations about the amount of wood needed for a mass pyre and subsequent conclusion there cannot have been mass pyres?

[Nazgul]

Quite clearly you are a fucking idiot.

You are not an idiot, this man had no right to call you that.

What is the evidential value of a revisionist's calculations about the amount of wood needed for a mass pyre and subsequent conclusion there cannot have been mass pyres?

We know that the minimum amount to cremate a kg of flesh and bone is about 3 kg of wood, dry wood. Just using the AR camps, not Birkenau which used Coke, say 1.2 million people at 50 kg per corpse would need 3600 tonne of wood. An average tree is 2250kg or 0.225 tonne. The operation to burn all those people would need a minumum of 16 thousand trees, that not only need to be cut but dried for years before hand. It takes several years to dry wood properly before burning. Wet wood really does not burn.

[Nessie]

Quite clearly you are a fucking idiot.

You are not an idiot, this man had no right to call you that.

What is the evidential value of a revisionist's calculations about the amount of wood needed for a mass pyre and subsequent conclusion there cannot have been mass pyres?

We know that the minimum amount to cremate a kg of flesh and bone is about 3 kg of wood, dry wood. Just using the AR camps, not Birkenau which used Coke, say 1.2 million people at 50 kg per corpse would need 3600 tonne of wood. An average tree is 2250kg or 0.225 tonne. The operation to burn all those people would need a minumum of 16 thousand trees, that not only need to be cut but dried for years before hand. It takes several years to dry wood properly before burning. Wet wood really does not burn.

How are your calculations evidence? What do they prove?

[Nazgul]

How are your calculations evidence? What do they prove?

Your intelligence should show what it proves. However, I will describe it.
That is a whole forest basically. The alleged final solution was activated by the Wansee conference Jan 20, 1942. Prior to this there were no plans for large scale felling of trees to burn people. Crematoria relied on coke. Jan is mid winter in Europe as you know wearing those tartans. Trees do not dry out in winter, wet wood does not burn. July 23, 1942 Treblinka for example becomes fully operational, summer. Sobibor operational May 3, 1942, late autumn, minimum drying conditions. Wood will not burn. The winter of 1941–1942 was the coldest winter in Europe during the 20th century, the wood drying situation is far worse than normal years. Trees might be cut down but they would not burn, not enough heat to dry them. The link between the Wansee conference and the destruction of bodies through outdoor pyres is not feasible.
I have bought wood thats dried for a year and had to use coal to make it sorta burn. The scenario described using wood is impossible.

[Nessie]

How are your calculations evidence? What do they prove?

Your intelligence should show what it proves. However, I will describe it.
That is a whole forest basically. The alleged final solution was activated by the Wansee conference Jan 20, 1942. Prior to this there were no plans for large scale felling of trees to burn people. Crematoria relied on coke. Jan is mid winter in Europe as you know wearing those tartans. Trees do not dry out in winter, wet wood does not burn. July 23, 1942 Treblinka for example becomes fully operational, summer. Sobibor operational May 3, 1942, late autumn, minimum drying conditions. Wood will not burn. The winter of 1941–1942 was the coldest winter in Europe during the 20th century, the wood drying situation is far worse than normal years. Trees might be cut down but they would not burn, not enough heat to dry them. The link between the Wansee conference and the destruction of bodies through outdoor pyres is not feasible.
I have bought wood thats dried for a year and had to use coal to make it sorta burn. The scenario described using wood is impossible.

That is your theory. There was insufficient, suitable wood in Poland for the pyres. You need to evidence that theory. Vague commentary about weather conditions in 1942, for pyres that were reported to have started in earnest after the discovery of the Katyn massacre site in April 1943, is not evidence.

Have you got any primary source reports, from Poles or Nazis, of a severe shortage of burnable wood after April 1943? Documents such as news reports, or testimony from any witness?

[TlsMS93]

Here in Brazil, no one talks about fires in the Amazon during the rainy season, which is from October to March. Even during the dry season, no one burns trees, but they cut them down to export, since it is practically impossible to burn freshly cut wood. What burns is vegetation. So in Europe, the window for burning something is very short, perhaps from June to September at the most, and this is with wood stored for at least 6 months. Where is the documentation and list of trains that arrive in Poland and never leave?

[borjastick]

Quite clearly you are a fucking idiot.

You are not an idiot, this man had no right to call you that.

What is the evidential value of a revisionist's calculations about the amount of wood needed for a mass pyre and subsequent conclusion there cannot have been mass pyres?

We know that the minimum amount to cremate a kg of flesh and bone is about 3 kg of wood, dry wood. Just using the AR camps, not Birkenau which used Coke, say 1.2 million people at 50 kg per corpse would need 3600 tonne of wood. An average tree is 2250kg or 0.225 tonne. The operation to burn all those people would need a minumum of 16 thousand trees, that not only need to be cut but dried for years before hand. It takes several years to dry wood properly before burning. Wet wood really does not burn.

He is a fucking idiot and I have every right to call him that and will again if his lunacy cannot be tempered with a modicum of IQ.

As for firewood it is a subject I know quite a bit about as I heat part of my house with a wood burner. It is going all day long at the moment as right now here in La La Land it is a tad chilly.

It doesn't take years for wood to dry out. It certainly takes one year hence the term 'seasoned wood'. Longer is better for sure as it burns hotter particularly if it is oak or chestnut. The issues that these numpties cannot get their tiny IQ around is storage, delivery, general management of said wood. Then you have the vast, huge, enormous quantities required to burn 800,000 hardly decomposed bodies in the outside. Plus the elephant in the room is actually placing hundreds of corpses onto the burn grid when it is already too hot for a human to get close to. The argument for the cremation on this scale is beyond dumb except the dumb and dumber types like Nessie think that as we cannot prove it didn't happen (wait a minute I just did) it must surely have happened. Their brainpower is lower than that expected of a halfwit African. Did I fart in bed this morning? Not sure but as I cannot prove I didn't, I must have.

[Nessie]

...
It doesn't take years for wood to dry out. It certainly takes one year hence the term 'seasoned wood'. Longer is better for sure as it burns hotter particularly if it is oak or chestnut. The issues that these numpties cannot get their tiny IQ around is storage, delivery, general management of said wood.

Why do you believe that the Polish were incapable of storing, delivering and general management of their forests and wood supplies? Do you think they were given a choice when SS arrived at the sawmills and demanded deliveries to the AR camps?

The argument for the cremation on this scale is beyond dumb except the dumb and dumber types like Nessie think that as we cannot prove it didn't happen (wait a minute I just did) it must surely have happened...

There is evidence from every single witness who worked inside an AR camp, Poles who lived near to the camps and the archaeological site surveys that found large areas of cremated remains and ash, to prove mass pyres. You have no evidence, instead you argue your disbelief.

[Nessie]

Archie asked AI about cremations;

Q: About how much wood would it take to cremate 500,000 bodies in open air?

A: Cremating bodies in open air is an energy-intensive process, and estimating the amount of wood required for 500,000 bodies involves several variables. Here's a breakdown:

1. Wood Required per Body:
Cremation in open air typically requires approximately 300–400 kilograms (660–880 pounds) of wood per body, depending on conditions like humidity, temperature, and efficiency of the pyre.

2. Total Wood for 500,000 Bodies:
Using the average figure of 350 kilograms (770 pounds) per body, the total amount of wood would be:
500,000 bodies × 350 kg/body = 175,000,000 kg (175,000 metric tons)

3. Practical Perspective:
Volume of Wood: The density of wood varies (e.g., oak is denser than pine), but as a rough estimate, 1 cubic meter of firewood weighs about 500–600 kilograms. For 175,000 metric tons of wood, this would equate to approximately 290,000–350,000 cubic meters of wood.
Transportation: Transporting this amount of wood would require tens of thousands of truckloads, assuming a typical large truck can carry around 25 tons of wood.

4. Visualizing the Quantity:
A forested area of several square kilometers would need to be harvested to provide this amount of wood, depending on the forest density.

Conclusion:
The logistical challenges of sourcing, transporting, and burning such a vast amount of wood for open-air cremations would leave significant evidence, including deforestation, transportation records, ash residue, and other environmental signs. If no evidence of such activity is found, it would raise serious questions about the plausibility of the claim.

AI has not said it is impossible. Instead, it has said that there are logistical challenges. The Nazis were well-equipped to deal with logistical challenges. They had total control of Poland and its forests, so getting wood for pyres would not be an issue. If a Nazi tells a Pole to supply wood, it gets supplied. Poland had plenty of wood.

AI then makes a mistake, when it is working out the variables. It calculates how much wood is needed "per body". It then multiplies that by 500,000 to get a total amount of wood needed. But it has calculated the amount of wood needed for 500,000 individual "per body" cremations, rather than mass pyres with multiple corpses. Witnesses speak of pyres with 2000 corpses, so that is 250 pyres, not 500,000. Pyres have economies of scale, so the amount of wood needed is greatly reduced.

AI then fails to take into account another variable. Witnesses also speak to once the corpses caught fire they burnt themselves, which will be down to the fat in the body and likely decomposition. That again reduces the amount of wood needed.

AI then discusses evidence, and suggests a lack makes mass cremations implausible. If AI was told about the evidence, from witnesses and ash residue, it would increase the plausibility of the claim.

[TlsMS93]

The Nazis were well-equipped to deal with logistical challenges.

They just didn't have them in Moscow and Stalingrad.

[bombsaway]

To determine the lowest reasonable amount of fuel required for outdoor cremation of a body using wood and then using wood doused in petrol, we need to perform a detailed energy balance calculation. This involves estimating the total energy required to cremate a body and then calculating the mass of fuel needed based on the energy content of the fuels and the efficiency of the cremation process.

### **1. Estimating the Energy Required for Cremation**

**a. Assumptions:**
- **Average Body Mass:** 70 kg
- **Ash Residue:** Approximately 3-5% of body mass (assume 2 kg for this calculation)
- **Mass to be Cremated:** 70 kg - 2 kg = 68 kg

**b. Energy Components:**
1. **Heating the Body:**
- **Initial Temperature (T₁):** 25°C
- **Final Combustion Temperature (T₂):** 1000°C
- **Temperature Change (ΔT):** 1000°C - 25°C = 975°C
- **Specific Heat Capacity of Human Tissue (c):** ~4.2 kJ/kg·K (similar to water)

\[
Q_1 = m \times c \times \Delta T = 70 \, \text{kg} \times 4.2 \, \text{kJ/kg·K} \times 975 \, \text{K} = 286,650 \, \text{kJ}
\]

2. **Evaporating Water Content:**
- **Assumed Water Content:** 30% of body mass
- **Mass of Water (m₁):** 70 kg × 0.30 = 21 kg
- **Heat of Vaporization of Water (L_v):** ~2260 kJ/kg

\[
Q_2 = m_1 \times L_v = 21 \, \text{kg} \times 2260 \, \text{kJ/kg} = 47,460 \, \text{kJ}
\]

3. **Combusting Organic Matter:**
- **Mass of Organic Matter (m₂):** 70 kg - 21 kg (water) - 2 kg (ash) = 47 kg (rounded to 49 kg for this calculation)
- **Heat of Combustion for Organic Matter (ΔH_c):** ~16,000 kJ/kg (assuming similar to wood)

\[
Q_3 = m_2 \times \Delta H_c = 49 \, \text{kg} \times 16,000 \, \text{kJ/kg} = 784,000 \, \text{kJ}
\]

**c. Total Energy Required:**
\[
Q_{\text{total}} = Q_1 + Q_2 + Q_3 = 286,650 \, \text{kJ} + 47,460 \, \text{kJ} + 784,000 \, \text{kJ} = 1,118,110 \, \text{kJ}
\]

### **2. Cremation Using Wood**

**a. Energy Content of Wood:**
- **Calorific Value:** ~15,000 kJ/kg
- **Assumed Efficiency of the Cremation Process (η):** 80% (extremely efficient)
- **Effective Energy per kg of Wood:** 15,000 kJ/kg × 0.80 = 12,000 kJ/kg

**b. Calculating Required Mass of Wood:**
\[
\text{Mass of Wood} = \frac{Q_{\text{total}}}{\text{Effective Energy per kg}} = \frac{1,118,110 \, \text{kJ}}{12,000 \, \text{kJ/kg}} \approx 93.18 \, \text{kg}
\]

**c. Conclusion:**
Approximately **93 kg of wood** would be required to cremate a 70 kg body under extremely efficient conditions.

### **3. Cremation Using Wood Doused in Petrol**

Adding petrol (gasoline) to the wood can significantly increase the energy available, thereby reducing the total mass of fuel required. Here's how:

**a. Energy Content of Petrol:**
- **Calorific Value:** ~46,000 kJ/kg
- **Assumed Efficiency (η):** 80% (consistent with overall process efficiency)
- **Effective Energy per kg of Petrol:** 46,000 kJ/kg × 0.80 = 36,800 kJ/kg

**b. Optimization Problem:**
To minimize the total mass of fuel (wood + petrol), we set up the following equation based on energy balance:

\[
15,000x + 46,000y = \frac{1,118,110 \, \text{kJ}}{0.80} = 1,397,637.5 \, \text{kJ}
\]

Where:
- \( x \) = mass of wood (kg)
- \( y \) = mass of petrol (kg)

**c. Minimizing Total Fuel Mass (\( x + y \)):**
To minimize \( x + y \), maximize the use of petrol since it has a higher energy density.

- **If only Petrol is Used:**

\[
y = \frac{1,397,637.5 \, \text{kJ}}{46,000 \, \text{kJ/kg}} \approx 30.4 \, \text{kg}
\]

**Total Fuel Mass:** 30.4 kg of petrol

- **If a Combination is Used:**

For example, using 10 kg of petrol:

\[
46,000 \times 10 = 460,000 \, \text{kJ}
\]

Remaining energy needed:

\[
1,397,637.5 - 460,000 = 937,637.5 \, \text{kJ}
\]

Mass of wood required:

\[
x = \frac{937,637.5 \, \text{kJ}}{15,000 \, \text{kJ/kg}} \approx 62.51 \, \text{kg}
\]

**Total Fuel Mass:** 10 kg petrol + 62.51 kg wood ≈ 72.5 kg

**d. Optimal Fuel Combination:**
To achieve the **minimum total fuel mass**, it's best to maximize petrol usage. If petrol is available and safe to use in this manner, using **only petrol** would require approximately **30 kg**. However, practical considerations such as combustion stability, flame control, and safety might necessitate using a combination of petrol and wood.

### **4. Practical Considerations**

While the theoretical calculations suggest that using petrol can significantly reduce the amount of fuel required for cremation, several practical factors must be considered:

1. **Safety:** Petrol is highly flammable and poses significant safety risks, especially in open-air cremation setups.
2. **Control of Combustion:** Achieving a stable and controllable combustion process might be more challenging with petrol.
3. **Environmental Impact:** The use of petrol can result in higher emissions of pollutants compared to wood.
4. **Regulatory Compliance:** Many regions have strict regulations governing cremation practices, including permissible fuels and emission controls.

### **5. Summary**

- **Using Wood Alone:** Approximately **93 kg** of wood is required for the cremation of a 70 kg body under extremely efficient conditions.
- **Using Petrol Alone:** Approximately **30 kg** of petrol could theoretically suffice, but practical and safety issues make this approach less feasible.
- **Using a Combination:** A mix of petrol and wood can reduce the total fuel mass needed (e.g., ~72.5 kg using 10 kg petrol and 62.5 kg wood), balancing energy efficiency with practical considerations.

**Note:** These calculations are theoretical and assume optimal conditions. Actual requirements may vary based on specific circumstances, equipment used, and environmental factors. Always adhere to local laws and regulations when considering cremation methods.

the 300-400 figure might be 6x too high

[Callafangers]

To determine the lowest reasonable amount of fuel required for outdoor cremation of a body using wood and then using wood doused in petrol, we need to perform a detailed energy balance calculation. This involves estimating the total energy required to cremate a body and then calculating the mass of fuel needed based on the energy content of the fuels and the efficiency of the cremation process.

the 300-400 figure might be 6x too high

bombsaway, do you ever get tired of being a clown? You have been demolished on your claims about the use of gasoline/petrol on the cremation pyres. Not only is there zero documentary evidence supporting your ridiculous hypothesis, but even the use of such fuels would have negligible impact on the question of 'Holocaust' cremation. Here is an earlier post of mine (from RODOH) which you pretend to not remember:

You are attempting to deviate from the evidence in order to explain-away that which is not supported by the evidence. You are now claiming gasoline was not only used at some capacity but was a primary fuel source. Is that correct? If this were the case, it would be a central and indispensable staple in the narrative told by any/all witnesses to the cremation process. It would be impossible to miss this crucial detail, and to not explain it precisely and explicitly, for every single direct witness, especially given many of them are said to have observed this daily. Instead, you have a mere handful of instances where any witness (credible or not) claims liquid fuels/accelerants were used at all.

The graves contained the wood and the corpse ashes. These were either mixed together, or separated in layers. In either case, this material was put into the graves and, therefore, must be accounted for in the total volume.

I am going to focus on Belzec at another time; this is not the thread for it. Suffice to say, you are only looking at one source for what was found in Kola's excavations per each grave -- there is at least one other source which can be compared to understand grave contents.

Germany acquiring gasoline is completely and totally irrelevant since, once again, the evidence does not support the cremation process you seem to fantasize having actually taken place. Nobody claims there were massive fuel tankers with Jews/Germans/Ukrainians holding firehoses and spraying a constant, steady flow of gasoline upon these pyres. (rofl)

Moreover, you severely overestimate the effect of adding liquid fuel to the fire (all data from, p. 201-205: https://tedb.ornl.gov/wp-content/upload ... tion_4.pdf ):

• Conventional gasoline has a lower heating value (LHV) of 43.45 MJ/kg (other liquid fuels are similar). This means that one liter of gasoline has an LHV of about 32.6 MJ (1 liter of gasoline = 0.75 kg of gasoline).
• Fresh/green wood, on the other hand, has an LHV of about 8.78 MJ/kg (HHV of dry hardwood is about 20 MJ/kg; apply formula for 50% moisture content: LHV = HHV(1-M) - 2.447M)
• Divide the energy release of 1 liter of gasoline by that of 1 kg of green hardwood and we confirm that 1 liter of gasoline replaces only about 3.7kg of wood.

You will notice that in the Sobibor Calculator, cell C8 (explained in cell D8), we have already accounted for roughly 30-50kg wood reduction per corpse due to alleged use of accelerants (brought back up to 230kg given the weather / precipitation / temperature constraints). This is extremely generous given that there is not a shred of documentation (and only scattered testimony) supporting that accelerants were used at all. With 40kg / 3.7kg, this means we have already accounted for some 10+ liters of gasoline added per corpse! Even this would require more than 3 million liters of gasoline at Sobibor, alone. That's about 100 modern-day fuel tankers (those huge ones on semi-trucks you see driving on the freeway), carrying 30,000 liters apiece. German WW2 oil tankers, on the other hand, were a small fraction of this size, thus, you are looking at up to 1,000 or more fuel tanker deliveries to Sobibor, even for just 10 liters of gasoline per corpse (replacing less than 15% of the wood needed for each). Thus, your "firehose theory" has already been factored into the equation provided, and it still proves to be ridiculous, undocumented, and quite impossible.

https://rodoh.info/post/16807/thread

Note that the 230kg wood-per-corpse estimate is actually very low, as shown by the more recent, extensive study on outdoor cremation (of pigs), which suggests a much higher figure of around ~700kg of green wood per corpse, discussed here:

https://codoh.com/library/document/open ... revisited/

Exterminationists are so thoroughly demolished with regard to the question of cremation that it is hardly worth discussing further unless you have new and compelling evidence to present. Your laughable hypotheses about magical and undocumented petrol/wood deliveries are dismissed.

[Nessie]

....
Exterminationists are so thoroughly demolished with regard to the question of cremation that it is hardly worth discussing further unless you have new and compelling evidence to present....

Since you do not accept the existing evidence of multiple witnesses to pyres and archaeological site surveys that have found large areas of ash and cremated remains, it is hard to see what evidence you would accept.

Only revisionists think that the historical and archaeological evidence has been demolished by their arguments. What you need is evidence to the contrary, such as a witness who states there were no pyres, or a survey that finds undisturbed ground.

Revisionist arguments about wood, fuel and the pyres have no evidential value. They are merely opinion, that would not be accepted in any court as expert evidence, since they are not backed by any expert. Courts, like historians, favour evidence over opinion.

[bombsaway]

So assuming 230 kg, cremating 3 million bodies would require clearing of 3 x "several" square kilometers of forest according to the AI projections

This doesn't seem like an impossible amount of wood, probably a fraction of Nazi Germany's total wood production, but we could get into it.