Forensic Chemistry

[bombsaway]

the AI, without any leading questions, states that Prussian Blue would be unlikely to form in a room regularly cleaned with bleach or ammonia products

https://chatgpt.com/share/687c67dd-7c50 ... b7f55242b7

even on ceilings

Ammonia is basic (alkaline) and releases ammonia gas (NH₃), which rises and can create a more alkaline microenvironment near the ceiling.

So unless:

You sprayed or spilled iron salts and ferrocyanide onto the ceiling,

Or iron was somehow already deposited up there (e.g., from rust dust, iron-containing paint, or lab aerosols),

...you won't see blue staining.

[Stubble]

You know, I remember reading a lot of things from contemporary accounts, there was an orchestra, then a speech, then the people went in to the undressing area, then an 'ambulance' pulled up and ran its engine, then people got on the roof and dropped the pellets in, then 5 minutes later, the sonderkommando grabbed everyone, ran them up to the muffles, crammed 8 people in each one, and the cremation was done in 15 minutes per cycle.

You know what I never read? I never read that anyone went and cleaned the gas chambers, let alone with chemicals, before the next set of people heard the orchestra, the speech and then were gassed in the homicidal gas chambers.

If it was because of cleaning with ammonia, or bleach, I'm going to ask that you show me any contemporary testimony that says that bombs away.

So far as any 'special' construction materials for the LK that just so happened to make iron blue not form, but, were only used in the LK, you, got an invoice? A delivery ticket? A contemporary account?

Not that that really matters, because there's no iron blue in the red brick air extraction channels near floor level.

I show you that iron blue forms on 1) red brick 2) concrete and 3) plaster, the materials used, in contemporary buildings, in the same facility, perhaps even from the same batch of deliveries (the fumigation delousing chambers at Auschwitz Birkenau), and here come the copes, lots of them.



It should be there, and it isn't, because hydrogen cyanide gas wasn't used in the semibasments at Kremas II and III to murder people in makeshift gas chambers.

You guys are ridiculous.

[bombsaway]

It seems likely ammonia based or similar cleaners (in terms of being alkaline based) would be used in such a situation.

https://chatgpt.com/c/687c79de-e02c-800 ... cb651712be

The witness testimony strongly suggests the chambers were cleaned, are you saying because specific cleaners aren't mentioned, the super common ones wouldn't have been used?

[Stubble]

No, I'm saying your testimony about cleaning is from the early to mid nineties, specifically, it was 50 years after the fact.

I apologize for the thread drift. I'm going to duck out and either go to sleep or go look for missing jews under rocks and cupboards east of the bug river.

I'll let you guys get back to discussing the chemistry in the thread. I couldn't hold my tongue when I saw what appeared to be somebody saying iron blue won't form on 1)brick 2)concrete or 3)plaster, because that was demonstrably false.

The 'they used ammonia or bleach' thing wound me up a bit too, so, i got a little short.

Again, the chemistry, this thread is for the chemistry.

I think we have a thread about homicidal gas chambers at Auschwitz Birkenau, actually a few, that are specific. 1 for Kula's Columns, 1 for the ventilation system (it's insufficient for homicidal purposes and also backwards for Hydrogen cyanide gas) etc. I think we may have one for mopping and painting the gas chambers between each use, either that it it got mentioned in one of the other threads. Regardless, we can talk about who ran a mop where later, in the appropriate thread.

CJ, Mr Hill, I apologize again for the thread drift, I wasn't trying to piss on anyones wheaties.

[Nessie]

I'm creating a dedicated thread to the forensic chemistry related to the gas chambers. There are Nazi blueprints and plenty of Nazi and Sonderkommando testimonies which I personally find extremely compelling...

So-called revisionists do not find the evidence compelling, so....

The strongest chemical arguments that I have seen are listed below.

...they rely on arguments...

1. Zyklon B is not suitable for mass killing. It releases cyanide too slowly to kill people quickly in large numbers.

2. The gas chambers were not airtight/sealed properly which would be necessary in order to kill people.

3. Leuchter went to Auschwitz and scraped brick and mortar samples from the site, sent them to a lab, and argued that low amounts of cyanide residue was evidence that genocidal gassings did not take place.

4. Delousing chambers have blue staining (Prussian blue), but homicidal gas chambers do not—this supposedly proves they were never exposed to Zyklon B.

5. Ventilation systems in the gas chambers were inadequate to clear toxic gas safely, so they must not have been used.

6. Zyklon B releases cyanide too slowly to kill people quickly in large numbers.

7. Zyklon B was supposedly dropped into the gas chambers through openings in the roof. David Irving and Germar Rudolf have claimed that there is no physical evidence of these holes in the ruins of the gas chambers, so the gas could not have been delivered.

8. Cyanide poisoning causes a bright red discoloration of the skin due to oxygen saturation, but survivors described corpses as blue or gray.

9. If HCN was used extensively, there should be heavy corrosion or chemical burns in the gas chambers’ remnants.

10. Hydrogen cyanide (Zyklon B) is flammable. Using it in enclosed spaces (gas chambers) with crematoria nearby would pose an explosion risk, making its use implausible.

...to claim that gassings were not possible, therefore there were no gassings. I repeatedly point to the logical and evidential flaws in that argument, but to no avail. So-called revisionists are so indebted to that argument, to support their beliefs, they carry on regardless.

Just because so-called revisionists cannot work out, or believe, that gassings were possible, does not therefore mean they did not happen.

[HansHill]

If you disagree with 2, please explain why you think that conditions were right for Prussian Blue formation to occur in the context of a murderous gas chamber.

Sure. We can divide the parameters into two categories - I'll call them Constants and Variables.

Constants: Iron + HcN

Both of these ingredients are required for the formation. We agree that both constants were present, so we can move on

Variables: These are the various factors that influence the formation of PB and there are approx half a dozen relevant factors. Moisture is by far the most important of these variables, others are temperature, pH, iron reactivity and so on.

All of these variables require separate discussion, but because moisture is the most important, this needs to be discussed first. We know that the homicidal gas chambers were damp and cold, being subterranean in what was practically a swamp. So speaking just in terms of environmental water content, we can consider this as a favourable factor for PB formation. However we can progress this further, by examining additional water content by what the eye-witnesses alleged, that the walls were washed between gassings. This would only add additional water to the walls meaning the walls could not be described in any other terms as being high in water content.

The other variables are not quite as important as water content so I'll wait for you to respond to the above.

Regarding the moisture, you are right that it is necessary but not sufficient to produce PB. Eyewitnesses reported that in between gassings, the walls were allegedly washed with water or limewater to clean blood, feces, vomit, etc. Lack of moisture is not the reason why PB did not formed.

Here I will lay out some logic. Please point out anything from which you disagree.

To form Prussian blue (Fe₄[Fe(CN)₆]₃) from hydrogen cyanide in the environment, several specific chemical conditions all must be present:

1. Long and repeated exposure to hydrogen cyanide gas
2. Alkaline (basic) environment
3. Presence of reactive iron compounds (e.g., Fe³⁺ or Fe²⁺ salts)
4. Moisture (water is required for cyanide hydrolysis and for Prussian blue to precipitate)
5. Time — the reaction is slow; formation takes hours to days

All agreed

What was not present in the homicidal chambers:

1. Prolonged exposure to HCN - The gassings were short (often <30 minutes) which was too little time for wall absorption.
2. Repeated exposure over time - Gas chambers were cleaned and ventilated.
3. Alkaline conditions - Prussian blue forms best in basic conditions; gas chamber walls were often neutral or acidic, which inhibits the reaction.
4. Iron availability - Not all building materials (e.g. plaster) contain reactive iron compounds.
5. Moisture and humidity - This doesn't seem to have been a major issue.

1 - The exposure time for the walls and ceiling would be expected to be in the hundreds of hours, if not thousands. These hundreds / thousands of hours is ample time for the reactions to occur

2 - Yes. Cleaned with water which is an accelerant, not a retardant.

3 - Incorrect. I'm not sure where you are pulling this from, or whether your AI has hallucinated. Building materials of the kinds we are talking about are alkaline, not acidic.

4 - In the analytic method, when calculating the percentage of cyanide, iron content was also documented. In Rudolf's samples of the homicidal gas chamber (samples 1 - 4) the iron content ranges from 10,000 to 20,000 ppm or mg per kg. This is in fact higher than the iron content in the delousing chambers (on average) which ranged from 4,000 - 25,000 ppm or mg per kg (with one outlier at 47,000 but that was an exterior wall). This indicates that the iron content across both environments were at least comprable if not slightly more rich in the homicidal gas chamber.

Its actually regrettable that the other studies such as Leuchter or Markiewicz did not document the iron content, however this only tells us two things. 1 that Rudolf's analysis is the more complete, developed and accounts for more variables, and 2, Markiewicz et al did not share your hypothesis that lack of iron was the determining factor. Otherwise they would have measured it.

I agree with you that you do need moisture, iron and HCN but they alone are not sufficient. You need the iron to be accessible and chemically reactive. The delousing chambers had exposed red clay brick walls which often contain hematite (Fe2O3) which can release iron ions that become chemically reactive over time. This is necessary but still insufficient to produce Prussian Blue.

In contrast, the extermination chambers were built with concrete or cement based plaster which have iron bound in silicates, but they are not chemically reactive. Because the extermination chambers lacked reactive iron, they did not have the necessary conditions to produce Prussian Blue.

Just so I am clear in the argument going forward, you seem to zoning into the idea that the lack of iron was the determining factor. I have not heard it argued before that either the iron was not present (?) or suitable (?) for PB formation. This is strange as we have examples of PB formation in concrete at Majdanek in Barrack 41.



Mr Stubble above has produced a photo of the evident Prussian Blue formation in concrete due to HcN exposure so really this argument is boxed out.

[HansHill]

https://acsess.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/ ... 300040024x

This isn't a relevant comparison because you are describing cyanide reactions in soil. Soils can contain chemically available (reactive) iron, favorable pH conditions, and microbial or redox activity — all of which can lead to cyanide–iron complex formation. In contrast, gas chamber walls lacked reactive iron.

Hydrogen cyanide contained within coke gas as a byproduct of the industrial process was reacted with iron hydroxide to be dispersed "safely" on the grounds of the gas plants. While the method of reaction is a bit different due to its industrial processing, the point to be made is that the reaction is predictable and the residues will remain stable for decades (or in this instance, centuries). The residues will not go anywhere or deteriorate or disintegrate.

What you are saying here is technically right but not relevant. Prussian blue is stable and if it had formed in the gas chambers, it would still be there today. But the homicidal gas chambers do not show any signs of PB because they were lacking the necessary reactive iron so it never formed in the first place.

I am aware of two separate studies analysing these Prussian Blue deposits. The Meusen paper above references 200 sites in the Netherlands alone. There is a separate paper I am less familiar with (Mansfeld)

https://acsess.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/ ... j2004.0471

The abstract from this second paper:

Soils in the vicinity of manufactured gas plants and coal coking plants are often highly contaminated with cyanides in the form of the compound Prussian blue, FeIII4FeIICN63

This is the same issue. At gas plants, the soil contained abundant, chemically reactive iron — especially iron oxides, iron hydroxides, corroded iron, and industrial waste products — all of which readily release Fe³⁺ or Fe²⁺ ions in moist, mildly acidic environments. In contrast, the gas chamber walls were made of concrete and cement-based plaster, where any iron present was chemically bound in stable, non-reactive mineral forms like iron silicates — not available for reaction with cyanide.

Yes i concede that the soil example is not a like-for-like comparison, but that was not my argument. I have already conceded that the mechanism was a bit different, but I was not arguing the mechanics. Rather I introduced the soil examples specifically as a rebuttal to your point:

The formation of Prussian Blue from an HCN reaction is the exception rather than the norm.

This is to say, PB formation is not an exceptional reaction and in fact is common and predictable. Obviously a gas plant is a different setting, but to be fair, if you are expecting me to find examples that satisfy the condition they are exactly comparable to a homicidal gas chamber, that is unrealistic. A homicidal gas chamber is an entirely artifical construct which cannot be readily pointed to in nature. And so this example is merely to demonstrate how common and predictable the reaction is in nature, not a demonstration of the situation or circumstances. I hope that clears that up.

In fact, because a "gas chamber" environment is so unique and artificial, this is why we spend so much time analysing the delousing chambers at Birkenau. That is orders of magnitude closer to what we are examining so works as a remarkably good control for our purposes.

I think we've identified the main point of disagreement so let me ask you clarifying questions.

1. Do you agree that the availability of chemically reactive iron is necessary to form Prussian Blue?
2. Do you agree that the soil at the gas plants had chemically reactive iron?
3. Do you agree that the extermination chambers did not have chemically reactive iron?

1) Yes
2) Yes
3) No, as has been demonstrated above

Thanks.

To make this simple, chemically reactive iron is iron that can dissolve in water and take part in chemical reactions — especially by forming iron ions (charged particles like Fe³⁺ or Fe²⁺). Those iron ions are what react with other substances — like cyanide — to form compounds like Prussian blue.

Red clay brick contains iron oxides (like Fe₂O₃) as natural pigments or impurities. Bricks are porous, and over time, moisture and acidic gases (like HCN) can cause small amounts of iron to dissolve into Fe³⁺ ions. Once iron is in solution as Fe³⁺, it can react with cyanide (CN⁻) to form Prussian blue.

The contaminated soil at the plants contain rust, iron oxides, iron hydroxides, and sometimes metal debris. Soils are wet, with fluctuating pH and oxygen — which mobilizes iron. These forms of iron readily dissolve in water and can react with cyanide to form stable ferrocyanide complexes (and eventually Prussian blue).

In contrast, the walls in the homicidal chambers were made out of concrete, plaster, and limewash which contain cement and only small amounts of iron. Even when present, it’s chemically locked in silicate or aluminate minerals which do not dissolve into water. So even with moisture and cyanide exposure, there was no free Fe³⁺ to start the chemical chain that leads to Prussian blue.

Neither Leuchter nor Rudolf meaningfully addressed the specific chemistry of iron reactivity, even though it is central to the formation—or absence—of Prussian blue. Green prepared an expert witness report for the Irving v. Lipstadt trial (2000) and emphasized that without reactive (soluble) iron, cyanide exposure alone would not produce Prussian blue, regardless of gas dose. His analysis was foundational in affirming that Leuchter and Rudolf’s conclusions were based on poor chemistry.

I've already addressed your Iron arguments above so I'll wait until you reply to that before responding to the above in case you materially change your position in light of what I answered

[HansHill]

the AI, without any leading questions, states that Prussian Blue would be unlikely to form in a room regularly cleaned with bleach or ammonia products

https://chatgpt.com/share/687c67dd-7c50 ... b7f55242b7

even on ceilings

Ammonia is basic (alkaline) and releases ammonia gas (NH₃), which rises and can create a more alkaline microenvironment near the ceiling.

So unless:

You sprayed or spilled iron salts and ferrocyanide onto the ceiling,

Or iron was somehow already deposited up there (e.g., from rust dust, iron-containing paint, or lab aerosols),

...you won't see blue staining.

I have not seen the ammonia-as-inhibiting-factor argument before. My initial reaction is that this is God Of The Gaps style argumentation, and there's not really much I can say about it

Please tell me more about these ammonia cleaning products Bombsaway

[bombsaway]

the AI, without any leading questions, states that Prussian Blue would be unlikely to form in a room regularly cleaned with bleach or ammonia products

https://chatgpt.com/share/687c67dd-7c50 ... b7f55242b7

even on ceilings

Ammonia is basic (alkaline) and releases ammonia gas (NH₃), which rises and can create a more alkaline microenvironment near the ceiling.

So unless:

You sprayed or spilled iron salts and ferrocyanide onto the ceiling,

Or iron was somehow already deposited up there (e.g., from rust dust, iron-containing paint, or lab aerosols),

...you won't see blue staining.

I have not seen the ammonia-as-inhibiting-factor argument before. My initial reaction is that this is God Of The Gaps style argumentation, and there's not really much I can say about it

Please tell me more about these ammonia cleaning products Bombsaway

It could be ammonia, bleach, slaked lime. All of these can raise alkalinity in a room, greatly inhibiting HCN absorption, staining. You assume none of these were used, the most common cleaning products in Germany at the time https://chatgpt.com/share/687cd1d3-4cbc ... 4befc5ae22

I'm not trying to say I know WHY there wasn't staining, I'm saying you are not accounting for many expected/possible variables.

[HansHill]

It could be ammonia, bleach, slaked lime. All of these can raise alkalinity in a room, greatly inhibiting HCN absorption, staining. You assume none of these were used, the most common cleaning products in Germany at the time https://chatgpt.com/share/687cd1d3-4cbc ... 4befc5ae22

I'm not trying to say I know WHY there wasn't staining, I'm saying you are not accounting for many expected/possible variables.

Now now, to be fair I haven't dismissed it (yet), i've simply asked for more details.

So walk me through it, i would assume the situation was something like this:

- Gassing finishes
- Gas is ventilated via extraction mechanism
- Sonderkommandos enter to remove the bodies
- Bleach / Ammonia is applied to walls & ceiling to remove the blood / urine / feces etc
- Room is prepped for next load of victims

Am i close?

[bombsaway]

It could be ammonia, bleach, slaked lime. All of these can raise alkalinity in a room, greatly inhibiting HCN absorption, staining. You assume none of these were used, the most common cleaning products in Germany at the time https://chatgpt.com/share/687cd1d3-4cbc ... 4befc5ae22

I'm not trying to say I know WHY there wasn't staining, I'm saying you are not accounting for many expected/possible variables.

Now now, to be fair I haven't dismissed it (yet), i've simply asked for more details.

So walk me through it, i would assume the situation was something like this:

- Gassing finishes
- Gas is ventilated via extraction mechanism
- Sonderkommandos enter to remove the bodies
- Bleach / Ammonia is applied to walls & ceiling to remove the blood / urine / feces etc
- Room is prepped for next load of victims

Am i close?

Yeah though according to gpt if ammonia/bleach is used it raises overall ph throughout the room. Nothing would have to be applied to the ceiling to prevent staining/absorption there.

[HansHill]

It could be ammonia, bleach, slaked lime. All of these can raise alkalinity in a room, greatly inhibiting HCN absorption, staining. You assume none of these were used, the most common cleaning products in Germany at the time https://chatgpt.com/share/687cd1d3-4cbc ... 4befc5ae22

I'm not trying to say I know WHY there wasn't staining, I'm saying you are not accounting for many expected/possible variables.

Now now, to be fair I haven't dismissed it (yet), i've simply asked for more details.

So walk me through it, i would assume the situation was something like this:

- Gassing finishes
- Gas is ventilated via extraction mechanism
- Sonderkommandos enter to remove the bodies
- Bleach / Ammonia is applied to walls & ceiling to remove the blood / urine / feces etc
- Room is prepped for next load of victims

Am i close?

Yeah though according to gpt if ammonia/bleach is used it raises overall ph throughout the room. Nothing would have to be applied to the ceiling to prevent staining/absorption there.

Got it.

And how do the Majdanek gas chambers fit into this gas-bleach-prep model?

[ConfusedJew]

I also want to be sure to note, if you weren't saying iron blue can't from on red brick, concrete, or plaster, I have no idea what the hell you were trying to say, because, the implication from your post is that iron blue could not have formed at the liken keller of Auschwitz Birkenau Kremas II and III, because they were made of 1) red brick, 2) concrete and 3) plaster.

This is not what I said. Go back and look, I clearly said that it can form from red clay brick. This is why I want to speak with HansHill because he has basic reading comprehension and communication skills.

This is seriously clogging up the discussion.

[Wahrheitssucher]

I also want to be sure to note, if you weren't saying iron blue can't from on red brick, concrete, or plaster, I have no idea what the hell you were trying to say, because, the implication from your post is that iron blue could not have formed at the liken keller of Auschwitz Birkenau Kremas II and III, because they were made of 1) red brick, 2) concrete and 3) plaster.

…I want to speak with HansHill because he has basic reading comprehension and communication skills.

Donner und blitzen!

And this from the person who admits:
- they can’t understand half of what anyone here writes,
- puts people on ignore if their ‘feelings’ get hurt and their ignorant pomposity gets pricked,
- STILL thinks he is arguing for whether ‘the holocaust happened’, despite numerous explanations,
- insists a highly qualified academic and published Professor isn’t a “serious scholar”.
etc., etc.

[HansHill]

I also want to be sure to note, if you weren't saying iron blue can't from on red brick, concrete, or plaster, I have no idea what the hell you were trying to say, because, the implication from your post is that iron blue could not have formed at the liken keller of Auschwitz Birkenau Kremas II and III, because they were made of 1) red brick, 2) concrete and 3) plaster.

…I want to speak with HansHill because he has basic reading comprehension and communication skills.

Donner und blitzen!

And this from the person who admits:
- they can’t understand half of what anyone here writes,
- puts people on ignore if their ‘feelings’ get hurt and their ignorant pomposity gets pricked,
- STILL thinks he is arguing for whether ‘the holocaust happened’, despite numerous explanations,
- insists a highly qualified academic and published Professor isn’t a “serious scholar”.
etc., etc.

Hello, this is the CEO of Prussian Blue Incorporated Hans Hill, how may I help you