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Re: Chronology of the Holocaust
Posted: Mon Feb 17, 2025 6:32 pm
by bombsaway
TlsMS93 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 17, 2025 6:09 pm
Let's say that 1 million became Soviet citizens in 1940 when these occupations ended, then they would have 4 million in Barbarossa, 1.4 million died according to pro-Holocaust historians, and there would be 2.6 million Jews left in 1945.
I think your 1.4 million is a drastic underestimate of orthodoxy's view. There are shooting numbers yeah which may come to around that, but many Jews starved to death, died of disease, and were also shipped West to extermination centers, according to orthodoxy, so you could be looking at 1.8 million, which means 2.2 million left. Then that number grows to 3 million by 1959
What am I missing here?
Nessie's Wannsee numbers take into account mass killing operations already conducted btw, as well as Jews that had left those areas during Soviet occupation and in advance of Barbarossa.
Re: Chronology of the Holocaust
Posted: Mon Feb 17, 2025 6:40 pm
by Stubble
bombsaway wrote: ↑Mon Feb 17, 2025 5:35 pm
Stubble wrote: ↑Mon Feb 17, 2025 5:22 pm
That is that the incident itself stands out. It is remarkably out of step with other actions taken by the Einsatzgruppen. This should be remarked on because of both the breadth and the scope of the operation. In my opinion, this bolsters my assertion that the underlying source of motivation for the action was not part of the nature of the Einsatzgruppen in the execution of their duties, but more likely a result of local pressure.
Local pressure from Ukrainians? You don't really see that, eg in the diary I showed you. It's a speculative point.
Actually if we continue to go through the accounts and documents, you'll see Babi Yar isn't out of step. The death toll is very high, but even this was matched more or less at certain places. My suggestion is to pick an area (doesn't matter where) and research what happened there. My hypothesis is you will see something similar to Babi Yar, in terms of killing operations, Jews being told they were resettled, then mass executed in prepared locations.
You can remember my initial assertion too, was that this was a systematic killing program
https://codohforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=4969#p4969
What makes it systematic is it happened everywhere. Wherever you look you will see the majority of the population (often the entire population) being killed off.
It might be useful to take these atrocities one at a time in this thread if you are up to it. If not, I can look at them on my own externally.
If the latter is to be the case, a list would be beneficial.
Re: Chronology of the Holocaust
Posted: Mon Feb 17, 2025 6:43 pm
by TlsMS93
bombsaway wrote: ↑Mon Feb 17, 2025 6:32 pm
I think your 1.4 million is a drastic underestimate of orthodoxy's view. There are shooting numbers yeah which may come to around that, but many Jews starved to death, died of disease, and were also shipped West to extermination centers, according to orthodoxy, so you could be looking at 1.8 million, which means 2.2 million left. Then that number grows to 3 million by 1959
What am I missing here?
Nessie's Wannsee numbers take into account mass killing operations already conducted btw, as well as Jews that had left those areas during Soviet occupation and in advance of Barbarossa.
Hilberg, you are so estimating this number of Soviet Jews dead. You are straining it to fit your 1959 prediction.
These numbers I gave are from before Barbarossa, so they were already Soviet citizens.
USSR 5,000,000
Ukraine 2,994,684
White Russia
excluding Bialystok 446,484
Are you seriously taking this seriously?
Re: Chronology of the Holocaust
Posted: Mon Feb 17, 2025 6:53 pm
by bombsaway
Stubble wrote: ↑Mon Feb 17, 2025 6:40 pm
It might be useful to take these atrocities one at a time in this thread if you are up to it. If not, I can look at them on my own externally.
If the latter is to be the case, a list would be beneficial.
I'm fine with that, here's an AI created list
Here are 20 of the largest massacres carried out by German police and SS units in 1941-1942, based on historical records:
1. Babi Yar (Kiev, Ukraine)
September 29-30, 1941
33,771 Jews killed
2. Rumbula Forest (near Riga, Latvia)
November 30 & December 8-9, 1941
~25,000-28,000 Jews killed
3. Ponary (near Vilnius, Lithuania)
July 1941 - July 1944
~70,000 total killed (majority Jews)
4. Fort IX (Kaunas, Lithuania)
Fall 1941
~9,200 Jews killed in single operation, many more in subsequent actions
5. Drobitsky Yar (Kharkiv, Ukraine)
December 15, 1941 - January 1942
~16,000 Jews killed
6. Odessa, Romania/Ukraine
October 22-24, 1941
~25,000 Jews killed
7. Minsk Ghetto
November 7, 1941
~12,000 Jews killed in single action
8. Dnipropetrovsk, Ukraine
October 13-15, 1941
~11,000 Jews killed
9. Stanisławów (now Ivano-Frankivsk, Ukraine)
October 12, 1941
~12,000 Jews killed
10. Białystok, Poland
July 1941
~4,000-5,000 Jews killed
11. Mogilev, Belarus
October 2-3, 1941
~3,700 Jews killed
12. Vinnitsa, Ukraine
September 19, 1941
~10,000 Jews killed
13. Zhytomyr, Ukraine
September 19, 1941
~3,145 Jews killed
14. Berdychiv, Ukraine
September 15, 1941
~12,000 Jews killed
15. Kamianets-Podilskyi, Ukraine
August 27-28, 1941
~23,600 Jews killed
16. Bila Tserkva, Ukraine
August 20-22, 1941
~3,000 Jews killed
17. Pinsk, Belarus
October 29-30, 1941
~10,000 Jews killed
18. Bobruisk, Belarus
September 7-8, 1941
~7,000 Jews killed
19. Mariupol, Ukraine
October 1941
~8,000 Jews killed
20. Brest, Belarus
October 15-16, 1941
~3,000-5,000 Jews killed
The numbers come from German police reports, eyewitness accounts, and post-war investigations. In many cases, the actual death tolls may have been higher than officially reported. The operations were typically carried out by combined forces including Einsatzgruppen, Order Police battalions, and local auxiliary units.
Rumbula is probably the most intense killing operation, nearly matching Babi Yar
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rumbula_massacre
Re: Chronology of the Holocaust
Posted: Mon Feb 17, 2025 7:10 pm
by Stubble
bombsaway wrote: ↑Mon Feb 17, 2025 6:53 pm
Stubble wrote: ↑Mon Feb 17, 2025 6:40 pm
It might be useful to take these atrocities one at a time in this thread if you are up to it. If not, I can look at them on my own externally.
If the latter is to be the case, a list would be beneficial.
I'm fine with that, here's an AI created list
Here are 20 of the largest massacres carried out by German police and SS units in 1941-1942, based on historical records:
1. Babi Yar (Kiev, Ukraine)
September 29-30, 1941
33,771 Jews killed
2. Rumbula Forest (near Riga, Latvia)
November 30 & December 8-9, 1941
~25,000-28,000 Jews killed
3. Ponary (near Vilnius, Lithuania)
July 1941 - July 1944
~70,000 total killed (majority Jews)
4. Fort IX (Kaunas, Lithuania)
Fall 1941
~9,200 Jews killed in single operation, many more in subsequent actions
5. Drobitsky Yar (Kharkiv, Ukraine)
December 15, 1941 - January 1942
~16,000 Jews killed
6. Odessa, Romania/Ukraine
October 22-24, 1941
~25,000 Jews killed
7. Minsk Ghetto
November 7, 1941
~12,000 Jews killed in single action
8. Dnipropetrovsk, Ukraine
October 13-15, 1941
~11,000 Jews killed
9. Stanisławów (now Ivano-Frankivsk, Ukraine)
October 12, 1941
~12,000 Jews killed
10. Białystok, Poland
July 1941
~4,000-5,000 Jews killed
11. Mogilev, Belarus
October 2-3, 1941
~3,700 Jews killed
12. Vinnitsa, Ukraine
September 19, 1941
~10,000 Jews killed
13. Zhytomyr, Ukraine
September 19, 1941
~3,145 Jews killed
14. Berdychiv, Ukraine
September 15, 1941
~12,000 Jews killed
15. Kamianets-Podilskyi, Ukraine
August 27-28, 1941
~23,600 Jews killed
16. Bila Tserkva, Ukraine
August 20-22, 1941
~3,000 Jews killed
17. Pinsk, Belarus
October 29-30, 1941
~10,000 Jews killed
18. Bobruisk, Belarus
September 7-8, 1941
~7,000 Jews killed
19. Mariupol, Ukraine
October 1941
~8,000 Jews killed
20. Brest, Belarus
October 15-16, 1941
~3,000-5,000 Jews killed
The numbers come from German police reports, eyewitness accounts, and post-war investigations. In many cases, the actual death tolls may have been higher than officially reported. The operations were typically carried out by combined forces including Einsatzgruppen, Order Police battalions, and local auxiliary units.
Rumbula is probably the most intense killing operation, nearly matching Babi Yar
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rumbula_massacre
/thumb_up
I'll get cracking on background, claim, research and try to form a synopsis. Seems fair since so far you've done the lifting. It's gonna take me a minute.
Re: Chronology of the Holocaust
Posted: Mon Feb 17, 2025 7:57 pm
by HansHill
Since Wikipedia and an AI Language model were posted as sources, i feel the need to balance the conversation somewhat with something meatier, espcially regarding Rumbula:
https://codoh.com/library/document/the- ... nation-of/
Re: Chronology of the Holocaust
Posted: Mon Feb 17, 2025 8:08 pm
by Stubble
Thanks Mr Hill, I had finished the wiki and was going to search CODOH next, you saved me some time.
I will mention, this whole thing is a huge tarbaby. There is some nutty stuff going on all around the event.
How to sift truth from lie, that is the question.
That CODOH link is very much more a 'meat and potatoes' presentation. It also seems very impartial in presentation.
Bombs, have you had a chance to read it, and are there any particulars in it with which you take issue?
I'm still trying to put together something myself to present about the event, but, time will have to wait, as the commodity of hours, or even minutes is short right now.
Re: Chronology of the Holocaust
Posted: Mon Feb 17, 2025 11:08 pm
by bombsaway
These weren't meant to be sources but rather a starting point for future inquiry. Everything has to be checked obviously. Looking at the Codoh page I see the hypothesis is the documents are fabricated, the witnesses are lying, and the Latvian Jews were in fact transported east. The only place where positive evidence is given is about Latvian Jews moving east, a newspaper article. Historians generally eschew such evidence if better evidence exists, because they lack footnotes, aren't sourced at all.
Basically the newspaper article stating the Latvian Jews were sent east is explainable in terms of it being the narrative the authorities (Riga was under Nazi occupation) put out. This story was also told to the Jews that arrived at the ghetto to find it empty. No more information, whether documentary or witness, exists for the "resettled" Latvian Jews being housed or maintained anywhere. I think it's hypocritical for revisionists to treat this as a given.
Re: Chronology of the Holocaust
Posted: Mon Feb 17, 2025 11:10 pm
by bombsaway
Stubble wrote: ↑Mon Feb 17, 2025 8:08 pm
Bombs, have you had a chance to read it, and are there any particulars in it with which you take issue?
It's speculative, not based on evidence really except for the newspaper article which is problematic. Which claim do you think is strongest I'll give you my take.
Re: Chronology of the Holocaust
Posted: Mon Feb 17, 2025 11:23 pm
by Stubble
bombsaway wrote: ↑Mon Feb 17, 2025 11:08 pm
These weren't meant to be sources but rather a starting point for future inquiry. Everything has to be checked obviously. Looking at the Codoh page I see the hypothesis is the documents are fabricated, the witnesses are lying, and the Latvian Jews were in fact transported east. The only place where positive evidence is given is about Latvian Jews moving east, a newspaper article. Historians generally eschew such evidence if better evidence exists, because they lack footnotes, aren't sourced at all.
Basically the newspaper article stating the Latvian Jews were sent east is explainable in terms of it being the narrative the authorities (Riga was under Nazi occupation) put out. This story was also told to the Jews that arrived at the ghetto to find it empty. No more information, whether documentary or witness, exists for the "resettled" Latvian Jews being housed or maintained anywhere. I think it's hypocritical for revisionists to treat this as a given.
Jesus man, did your read it? This synopsis, I can't even.
bombsaway wrote: ↑Mon Feb 17, 2025 11:10 pm
Stubble wrote: ↑Mon Feb 17, 2025 8:08 pm
Bombs, have you had a chance to read it, and are there any particulars in it with which you take issue?
It's speculative, not based on evidence really except for the newspaper article which is problematic. Which claim do you think is strongest I'll give you my take.
I'm more concerned with building a timeline of the specifics of the operation and looking at the motivations for the event. I'm even assuming it took place, not that there was a transport 'east', although, I really don't feel the author presented that allegation seriously either, simply outlined what was circulating at the time.
Re: Chronology of the Holocaust
Posted: Mon Feb 17, 2025 11:43 pm
by bombsaway
Stubble wrote: ↑Mon Feb 17, 2025 11:23 pm
bombsaway wrote: ↑Mon Feb 17, 2025 11:08 pm
These weren't meant to be sources but rather a starting point for future inquiry. Everything has to be checked obviously. Looking at the Codoh page I see the hypothesis is the documents are fabricated, the witnesses are lying, and the Latvian Jews were in fact transported east. The only place where positive evidence is given is about Latvian Jews moving east, a newspaper article. Historians generally eschew such evidence if better evidence exists, because they lack footnotes, aren't sourced at all.
Basically the newspaper article stating the Latvian Jews were sent east is explainable in terms of it being the narrative the authorities (Riga was under Nazi occupation) put out. This story was also told to the Jews that arrived at the ghetto to find it empty. No more information, whether documentary or witness, exists for the "resettled" Latvian Jews being housed or maintained anywhere. I think it's hypocritical for revisionists to treat this as a given.
Jesus man, did your read it? This synopsis, I can't even.
bombsaway wrote: ↑Mon Feb 17, 2025 11:10 pm
Stubble wrote: ↑Mon Feb 17, 2025 8:08 pm
Bombs, have you had a chance to read it, and are there any particulars in it with which you take issue?
It's speculative, not based on evidence really except for the newspaper article which is problematic. Which claim do you think is strongest I'll give you my take.
I'm more concerned with building a timeline of the specifics of the operation and looking at the motivations for the event. I'm even assuming it took place, not that there was a transport 'east', although, I really don't feel the author presented that allegation seriously either, simply outlined what was circulating at the time.
I'm trying to parse what it means, though I admit that Kues doesn't go out and flat out say it didn't happen, all the documents were fudged, the witnesses were lying. The newspaper article that he defends plainly contradicts the orthodox narrative, so this is where my notion of his hypothesis emerges.
The chief issue is what happened to all the disappeared inhabitants if not killed? The evidence for killing is profuse, and the evidence for resettlement is woefully lacking. So even if Kues can successfully argue that the numbers are lower than what's described, it doesn't really change my major point about systematic killing operations. It doesn't invalidate the parts of the Stahlecker report where he states the goal of killing all non-employable Jews . . . These are arguments on the margins, probably something that orthodox historians would make. But Kues is not an orthodox historian. I've read his other work (before his abrupt disappearance from the revisionist scene) and he definitively alongside Mattogno and Graf, stated that 2 million Jews were transported into occupied USSR, and they along with many Jews already there were "resettled", ie maintained somewhere. I think I showed you the series. The evidence for that is non-existent.
Re: Chronology of the Holocaust
Posted: Mon Feb 17, 2025 11:59 pm
by TlsMS93
The problem is that you are overvaluing reports and labeling them as a smoking gun of extermination and declaring them as overwhelming evidence and forgetting everything else. If we are going to claim that most witnesses converge on something then aliens exist too and we have no physical proof because they eliminate their presence, the so-called Aktion 1005. How can we prove an extermination without photos of the entire process? OK, there are photos of executions of people on the Eastern Front but what is the context and what does it prove? There are reports but are they reliable? Why allegedly so much work to destroy evidence and keep these incriminating files hidden away in ministerial offices even in unimportant folders?
As Arthur Butz once said
“It is not difficult to see why these documents exist; without them, the authors of the lie would have no proof of their claims, except testimonies. We have seen that in Auschwitz there was an abundance of material facts to work with and whose meanings could be distorted: shipments of Jews to Auschwitz, many of whom did not return to their homes of origin, large shipments of a source of hydrogen cyanide gas, elaborate cremation facilities, selections, the stench. The situation with the Einsatzgruppen was different; there was only one fact, the executions. In itself this fact does not seem impressive as evidence, and this consideration was undoubtedly the motivation for the production of these documents on such a large scale.”
Re: Chronology of the Holocaust
Posted: Tue Feb 18, 2025 12:05 am
by Stubble
I am not here to quibble over numbers either man. Just trying to put facts, near as can be determined 80 years after the fact, in front of my face. That article presents those, there are some facts in the wiki as well, although, in my opinion, the article is more replete.
What prompted this killing? In light of the specific order not to kill jews without expressed permission from Berlin, I find the assertion that this killing was part of a systematic genocide dubious, although I agree some mass killings took place and some of those were unwarranted. Surprisingly there was not an investigation by the Gestapo and there was no justice dispensed. Others, like Koch, were not so ignored.
Re: Chronology of the Holocaust
Posted: Tue Feb 18, 2025 12:09 am
by bombsaway
TlsMS93 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 17, 2025 11:59 pm
The problem is that you are overvaluing reports and labeling them as a smoking gun of extermination and declaring them as overwhelming evidence and forgetting everything else. If we are going to claim that most witnesses converge on something then aliens exist too and we have no physical proof because they eliminate their presence, the so-called Aktion 1005. How can we prove an extermination without photos of the entire process? OK, there are photos of executions of people on the Eastern Front but what is the context and what does it prove? There are reports but are they reliable? Why allegedly so much work to destroy evidence and keep these incriminating files hidden away in ministerial offices even in unimportant folders?
In terms of documentary evidence, there's a thousand smoking guns as I see it. The revisionist hypothesis is Jews were being resettled and maintained somewhere at this time, though not in ghettos because they were all closed down. Clearly they were deemed to dangerous to intermingle with the general population, so the only remaining hypothesis is Jews being kept in internment camps of some kind. Yet when these populations depart from ghettos, shootings are the only thing you see happening to them.
There were attempts to destroy SS police documents actually, these attempts are documented. The problem is so many documents were created they weren't unable to do this very successfully. Orthodox sees a difference w documents concerning the extermination facilities, where environment was much more controlled, allowing them cover up the activities better.
Re: Chronology of the Holocaust
Posted: Tue Feb 18, 2025 12:10 am
by Numar Patru
Stubble wrote: ↑Tue Feb 18, 2025 12:05 am
In light of the specific order not to kill jews without expressed permission from Berlin
What order are you talking about?