Why Do you Guys Think the Holocaust is Fake?

[ConfusedJew]

CJ, you now have 106 posts and from what I've seen you've said basically nothing and you refuse to focus on a single topic for more than a couple of posts. You are going to need to step it up if you want to keep posting here. That means means using your own brain to come up with substantive observations relevant to our topic. "I'm too lazy to read books, I just feed everything into AI" isn't going to cut it.

I'm identifying the major points of disagreement upfront. I'm not too lazy to read books, it's just unnecessary when the technology can summarize them in a tiny fraction of the time that it would take to read them.

AI is only as useful as the human operating it at this point. It's just a research tool, it is not telling me what to say or do, it just helping me get the facts very quickly.

I've found a lot of people who are threatened by AI complain about that. I used to be a professional research analyst so I can do all of this from scratch, there's just no point in doing that anymore. It's like using a horse and buggy when the automobile has arrived, except it's free.

[ConfusedJew]

While it is true that much physical evidence doesn't exist, many would argue that it was because the Nazis destroyed the evidence to conceal their crimes, there is still significant physical evidence that has been recovered and studied extensively by historians, forensic experts, and archaeologists.

CJ, let's see the "significant physical evidence that has been recovered and studied extensively by forensic experts and archaeologists" that proves, beyond a reasonable doubt, that the 100 fraudulently alleged "huge mass graves" of B, C, P, S & TII actually exist and contain the remains of at least 2 people.

CJ,

V - Is it - True. - or - False. - that; If 100 graves contained the bones and teeth of 2.1 million people - then each grave would contain, on average, the remains of 21,000 people - ??

VI - Is it - True. - or - False. - that; Blacks Law Dictionary defines - Burden of Proof - as: “The necessity or duty of affirmatively proving a fact or facts in dispute on an issue raised between the parties in a cause.” - ??

VII - Is it - True. - or - False. - that; The maxims of law found in Bouvier's Law Dictionary include: “The claimant is always bound to prove: the burden of proof lies on him.” - and - “The burden of the proof lies upon him who affirms, not he who denies.” - ??

I don't see Bouvier's Law Dictionary as being a relevant source for this kind of debate, but there are many conflicting claims being made. The fact that the Holocaust happened is widely believed among many different professional historians who have used rigorous methodologies to document it.

To say that the Holocaust never happened, is a claim in itself, and it requires really strong evidence as to how millions and millions of people could be wrong about this given that so many of them were personally there, many of them were personally involved in carrying it out, and many scholars have been rigorously studying this for decades.

This isn't exactly a formal law case, but the courts have previously ruled, and set legally binding precedent, that the Holocaust was in fact real.

I don't know about the forensics stuff, that will come further down the line.

[Stubble]

If the holocaust tm did not happen as described then it is a fraud. It didn't happen.

There was a kerfuffle, a 'shoah'. What is referred to as the holocaust? Negative.

[ConfusedJew]

If the holocaust tm did not happen as described then it is a fraud. It didn't happen.

There was a kerfuffle, a 'shoah'. What is referred to as the holocaust? Negative.

That's very black and white thinking. How exactly do you think history is written?

Do you think there is always 100% consensus on the general process and the minute details?

I'll ask again, how do you define the Holocaust in your own words? It is important to make sure we are on the same page to know what exactly we are debating.

[Stubble]

Dude, if I don't believe people laid face down in quicklime head to toe and waited to be shot in the back of the head, I am holocaust denier.

Yes, it's black and white. No, that's not my fault or a fault in my thinking, it's a problem with the holocaust orthodoxy.

Look, stuff happened during ww2, and stuff certainly happened to jews during ww2, and I don't deny that there was a kerfuffle.

You get to talking about mass graves that I just can't find and gas chambers that have about the same quantity of cyanids as the pool there at Auschwitz main camp does, well, color me skeptical.

/shrug

When eyewitnesses get nobel prizes for writing about babies unloaded from trucks with pitchforks into lakes and rivers of fire alive, I have my doubts.

I don't know what to tell you buddy.

The holocaust as sold is a fraudulent bag of goods. I want my money back. I've been scammed. What I was told transpired did not.

I was shown people that got bombed at nordhausen, naked and lined up, I got told those were victims of the 'nazi genocide'. They weren't man.

I got shown footage of naked jews being bulldozed into pits by the English after they died of starvation and typhus under allied control and told they were victims of 'nazi genocide'...

This list can go on and on and on and on.

I was lied to on every level for my entire life about this.

I'd have to forgive 6,000,000 lies to accept the 1 truth offered by the orthodoxy, and I staunchly refuse.

[ConfusedJew]

Dude, if I don't believe people laid face down in quicklime head to toe and waited to be shot in the back of the head, I am holocaust denier.

Yes, it's black and white. No, that's not my fault or a fault in my thinking, it's a problem with the holocaust orthodoxy.

Look, stuff happened during ww2, and stuff certainly happened to jews during ww2, and I don't deny that there was a kerfuffle.

You get to talking about mass graves that I just can't find and gas chambers that have about the same quantity of cyanids as the pool there at Auschwitz main camp does, well, color me skeptical.

/shrug

I don't know what you are talking about. Who said that people laid face down in quicklime and why do you think that didn't happen?

The issue with Holocaust denial versus legitimate revisionism stems from motivation. Are you trying to challenge the status quo to delegitimize the suffering of real people or are you trying to add to the understanding of history?

Do you believe every anti-semitic claim that you hear, or do you spend energy to wrestle with the arguments facts in a rigorous way to reach a deeper truth?

Are you mad that something you thought was true and you later came to believe that it wasn't? That is a source of bias and distorted historical inquiry.

When you refer to massive death as merely a "kerfuffle" and stuff certainly happened, it sounds like you are trying to euphemistically minimize the casualties and suffering.

[bombsaway]

Stubble, very little happens in history as described, even in documents. Humans do not parse reality in absolute terms, we abstract it. With a mass event you are formulating a narrative out of thousands of gens of thousands of abstractions.

It's silly to call it all a giant lie, though surely some witnesses lied. CJ is similarly suspicious of revisionists here. I'm sure at least som quote unquote revisionists have lied about their beliefs in order to advance a larger agenda or gain popularity, but I doubt members of this forum have. Would it be right for me to call the mass internment and maintenance of Jews a lie? If it is it's a more audacious lie than Orthodox, imo, given the lack of evidence and all the contingencies it necessitates, like hundreds of thousands or millions of Jews failing to speak up about what happened to them when the Germans brought them into USSR. You expect me to accept such a lie?

[Nessie]

Firstly Nessie, i am aware that this was technically Bombsaway's argument and i know its not fair to hold one man accountable or answerable for another man's opinions. That said however BA isn't present currently so I will ask you in the event you have an answer, and if not that's fine too.

https://www.codohforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=171

Does your post above about the burning pits, render BA's line of argumentation here as redundant? That is, the throughput issue of the Birkenau Kremas is now redundant because you can offset the difference to burning pits?

Is that fair to say?

I have argued in the past that revisionist estimations of oven capacity ignore we do not know how many were cremated on the pyres next to the bunker/farm house and Krema V.

Additionally, because your source is claiming 42 separate pits, this must mean the throughput discrepancy for the Birkenau Kremas is significant, correct?

I know you said you cannot find the original report, fair enough, but what do you estimate was the total number of bodies per each of the 42 sites?

I don't. The findings are evidence to corroborate claims that cremation ashes, whether that was from the pyres or the ovens, were spread about the fields next to the camp, as well as dumped into the local river.

[Nessie]

If the holocaust tm did not happen as described then it is a fraud. It didn't happen.

There was a kerfuffle, a 'shoah'. What is referred to as the holocaust? Negative.

If you asked 100 French civilians who lived at the Normandy beaches, to describe what they saw, they would come out with 100 different versions, varying about times, numbers and details of the events. Does that mean, therefore, there were no landings at Normandy?

[Keen]

You say:

You can't be 100% certain about anything.

Are you 100% certain about that?

CJ:

I was not fully accurate when I said that you can[t] be 100% certain about anything.

I knew you were wrong, that is why I pointed it out to you.

CJ:

Logically, you can be certain about... self evident truths.

self-evident
adjective
self-ev·​i·​dent ˌself-ˈe-və-dənt -ˌdent
Synonyms of self-evident

: evident without proof or reasoning

Not seeing an elephant in ones basement is self evident proof that there is no elephant in ones basement, and one can be 100% certain that there is no elephant in ones basement if one cannot be seen.

CJ, I am 100% sure, base on the fact that it's a self evident truth derived from the Ipso facto / convergence of the lack of physical evidence method, that the following is true:

It is alleged in orthodox historiography that, during WW II, hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of corpses were buried in numerous “huge mass graves” at Belzec, Chelmno, Ponary, Sobibor and Treblinka II. However, despite all the deceptive allegations to the contrary, the truth is, the largest (in terms of quantity of remains) of the one hundred graves / cremation pits that are fraudulently alleged to have been “scientifically proven” to currently exist at these sites, in which verified human remains have been tangibly located via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented archaeology, contained the remains of - ONLY FIVE PEOPLE.

CJ:

What do you think?

If you don't think that I can be so certain about the above self evident truth, then all you have to do is show me one of the other 99 fraudulently alleged "huge mass graves" alleged to have been “scientifically proven” to currently exist at these sites that contains the remains of over 5 people.

One out of 99 CJ.

Why are you so afraid to show us the largest (in terms of quantity of remains) of these 99 "huge mass graves"?

I don't see a huge mass grave with the remains of more than 5 people in it. If there were a huge mass grave with the remains of more than 5 people in it, the jews would be rubbing my nose in it and collecting the reward money for doing so. Therefore, I am 100% certain that there are no huge mass graves with the remains of more than 5 people in them.

[Keen]

CJ, let's see the "significant physical evidence that has been recovered and studied extensively by forensic experts and archaeologists" that proves, beyond a reasonable doubt, that the 100 fraudulently alleged "huge mass graves" of B, C, P, S & TII actually exist and contain the remains of at least 2 people.

CJ,

V - Is it - True. - or - False. - that; If 100 graves contained the bones and teeth of 2.1 million people - then each grave would contain, on average, the remains of 21,000 people - ??

VI - Is it - True. - or - False. - that; Blacks Law Dictionary defines - Burden of Proof - as: “The necessity or duty of affirmatively proving a fact or facts in dispute on an issue raised between the parties in a cause.” - ??

VII - Is it - True. - or - False. - that; The maxims of law found in Bouvier's Law Dictionary include: “The claimant is always bound to prove: the burden of proof lies on him.” - and - “The burden of the proof lies upon him who affirms, not he who denies.” - ??

CJ

I don't have an intelligent answer for you on this right now.

Well, seeing that you lack intelligence, I'm not suprised.

CJ

That is not an evasion or a dodge.

Yes it is.

CJ:

I simply need to do more research on the forensics of archaeological research.

To answer this question:

V - Is it - True. - or - False. - that; If 100 graves contained the bones and teeth of 2.1 million people - then each grave would contain, on average, the remains of 21,000 people - ??



CJ

I am not a forensic scientist or archaeologist by background so I need to develop those skills to be able to discuss with you.

No you don't. All you need to do is show me what you allege exists. It's an ipso facto / self evident / convergence of the lack of physical evidence thing. I don't think you have the mental capacity to understand.

CJ:

You seem very emotionally confident in your knowledge of this area which is funny to me.

The fact is CJ, I'm not just confident, I'm 100% certain.

[Keen]

While it is true that much physical evidence doesn't exist, many would argue that it was because the Nazis destroyed the evidence to conceal their crimes, there is still significant physical evidence that has been recovered and studied extensively by historians, forensic experts, and archaeologists.

CJ, let's see the "significant physical evidence that has been recovered and studied extensively by forensic experts and archaeologists" that proves, beyond a reasonable doubt, that the 100 fraudulently alleged "huge mass graves" of B, C, P, S & TII actually exist and contain the remains of at least 2 people.

CJ,

V - Is it - True. - or - False. - that; If 100 graves contained the bones and teeth of 2.1 million people - then each grave would contain, on average, the remains of 21,000 people - ??

VI - Is it - True. - or - False. - that; Blacks Law Dictionary defines - Burden of Proof - as: “The necessity or duty of affirmatively proving a fact or facts in dispute on an issue raised between the parties in a cause.” - ??

VII - Is it - True. - or - False. - that; The maxims of law found in Bouvier's Law Dictionary include: “The claimant is always bound to prove: the burden of proof lies on him.” - and - “The burden of the proof lies upon him who affirms, not he who denies.” - ??

I don't see Bouvier's Law Dictionary as being a relevant source for this kind of debate, but there are many conflicting claims being made. The fact that the Holocaust happened is widely believed among many different professional historians who have used rigorous methodologies to document it.

To say that the Holocaust never happened, is a claim in itself, and it requires really strong evidence as to how millions and millions of people could be wrong about this given that so many of them were personally there, many of them were personally involved in carrying it out, and many scholars have been rigorously studying this for decades.

This isn't exactly a formal law case, but the courts have previously ruled, and set legally binding precedent, that the Holocaust was in fact real.

I don't know about the forensics stuff, that will come further down the line.

2nd dodge noted CJ.

Do you lack the basic intelligence to answer this question that you are unwilling to answer:

V - Is it - True. - or - False. - that; If 100 graves contained the bones and teeth of 2.1 million people - then each grave would contain, on average, the remains of 21,000 people - ??

Or are you afraid to?

[Keen]

Here's an updated math question for you CJ:

If the remains of 2,145,000 people are buried in 100 "huge mass graves," and 4 of the 100 "huge mass graves" contain the remains of a total of 8 people, on average; the remains of how many people are buried in each of the remaining 96 graves?

[Keen]

AI is... just a research tool, it is not telling me what to say or do, it just helping me get the facts very quickly.

AI does not help one "get the facts very quickly" when trying to learn the truth about the holohoax.

For instance, when I asked Chat gpt: "How many mass graves have been proven to exist at Treblinka II that contain the remains of more than 5 people?" it responded with the lie:

... the existence of numerous mass graves at Treblinka II is well-documented and proven... Although the exact number of graves containing "more than five individuals" isn't detailed numerically in public forensic reports, the scale of burial sites far exceeds that threshold—each of these mass graves contains hundreds to thousands of individuals.

So asking Chat gpt for "facts" about the holohoax may result in receiving lies and propaganda.

CJ, if the remains of 925,000 people are buried in 15 "huge mass graves," on average, the remains of how many people would be buried in each grave?

I don't see a huge mass grave with the remains of more than 5 people in it. If there were a huge mass grave with the remains of more than 5 people in it, the jews would be rubbing my nose in it and collecting the reward money for doing so. ( http://thisisaboutscience.com/ )Therefore, I am 100% certain that there are no huge mass graves with the remains of more than 5 people in them.

[ConfusedJew]

Not seeing an elephant in ones basement is self evident proof that there is no elephant in ones basement, and one can be 100% certain that there is no elephant in ones basement if one cannot be seen.

CJ, I am 100% sure, base on the fact that it's a self evident truth derived from the Ipso facto / convergence of the lack of physical evidence method, that the following is true:

It is alleged in orthodox historiography that, during WW II, hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of corpses were buried in numerous “huge mass graves” at Belzec, Chelmno, Ponary, Sobibor and Treblinka II. However, despite all the deceptive allegations to the contrary, the truth is, the largest (in terms of quantity of remains) of the one hundred graves / cremation pits that are fraudulently alleged to have been “scientifically proven” to currently exist at these sites, in which verified human remains have been tangibly located via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented archaeology, contained the remains of - ONLY FIVE PEOPLE.

You are 100% emotionally "sure" but that's not the same thing as actually being sure. Your epistemics, the understanding of how to determine what is true, are deeply flawed.

Without good epistemics, you can't think clearly or articulate yourself clearly.