The Pyres of Dresden

[TlsMS93]

Something for the forum's consideration, this appears to be the level of destruction of the remains subjected to the pyres.

They look like the corpses from the Ohrdruf pyre. We know from the 1945 TII site survey, that cremations were often not complete, leaving identifiable body parts.

You don't have the cremated remains of 800,000 people from Treblinka, and neither Jewish nor Polish organizations are interested in documenting that number because they know it doesn't exist. Your problem is that you think we deny that cremations took place in those camps. The difference is that you can't prove the alleged number, and you think that shipping documents, anecdotal testimony, and non-peer-reviewed soil drilling analyses are enough to prove anything.

[Stubble]

Without complete obliteration of the remains, the wall of grave space is hit anew. Strange to see members of the orthodoxy kick back on both complete obliteration (Aktion 1005) as an explanation for the lack of remains, and also incomplete destruction simultaneously...

Pilgrimofdark made an interesting observation, for 10% of the death toll, Dresden grave space is roughly congruent with the space proposed at Treblinka..

Reflect on that.

[Nessie]

.....

They look like the corpses from the Ohrdruf pyre. We know from the 1945 TII site survey, that cremations were often not complete, leaving identifiable body parts.

You don't have the cremated remains of 800,000 people from Treblinka,

That is your opinion. I can evidence over 800,000 died at the camp, were buried and cremated there, based on documentary, eyewitness and archaeological evidence.

... and neither Jewish nor Polish organizations are interested in documenting that number because they know it doesn't exist.

What do you base that claim on? The Poles were instrumental in the initial investigations of TII. Jewish historians have also been part of the research and evidence gathering, to determine what happened there, and how many died. Contrary to some claims, the camp has also been extensively excavated, including by scientists from the Warsaw University of Technology last year;

https://eng.pw.edu.pl/News/Scientists-i ... ation-Camp

Your problem is that you think we deny that cremations took place in those camps. The difference is that you can't prove the alleged number, and you think that shipping documents, anecdotal testimony, and non-peer-reviewed soil drilling analyses are enough to prove anything.

In your opinion, historians have not proved how many died. They base the death toll on Nazi documents recording how many were transported there, eyewitness evidence and multiple excavations and site examinations. You dismiss that as "shipping", "anecdotal" and "non-peer reviewed", which is a deception you fall for. I do not fall for your dishonest misrepresentation of the evidence.

[Wetzelrad]

Something for the forum's consideration, this appears to be the level of destruction of the remains subjected to the pyres.

No, if the date is correct they must be the remains after firebombing. The Altmarkt cremations didn't begin until a week or two later.

The location does not resemble the Altmarkt, so it could be anywhere in the city.

[Stubble]

Something for the forum's consideration, this appears to be the level of destruction of the remains subjected to the pyres.

No, if the date is correct they must be the remains after firebombing. The Altmarkt cremations didn't begin until a week or two later.

The location does not resemble the Altmarkt, so it could be anywhere in the city.

That's horrifying

Perhaps this is another case where 18 turned in to 13?

Also, I believe that 'coffin' is in fact a 'soaking tub', although I could be mistaken again.

[Callafangers]

They look like the corpses from the Ohrdruf pyre. We know from the 1945 TII site survey, that cremations were often not complete, leaving identifiable body parts.

Without complete obliteration of the remains, the wall of grave space is hit anew. Strange to see members of the orthodoxy kick back on both complete obliteration (Aktion 1005) as an explanation for the lack of remains, and also incomplete destruction simultaneously...

Nessie clearly doesn't realize how absolutely f**cked he is if the cremains were not reduced to coarse bone fragments at most. Why in the hell would Germany bother to go through the continent-wide 'Aktion 1005' evidence-destruction campaign and dig up the three-quarters of a million corpses at Treblinka and elsewhere, only to partially burn the Jewish remains there? Wasn't "total destruction" the entire point of this operation?

Nessie, looking at the photo of Dresden corpses:



...you seemed to now concede that Reinhardt cremations were done to a similar degree, rather than down to mainly coarse or fine bone fragments.

Do you realize that what we seen in the photo above is suggestive of at some 0.035m3 volume -- comparable to at least that of a very large backpack, or some 6-7 shoeboxes) per corpse (although very unevenly -- some corpses appear barely charred with clothing still intact, so 0.035m3 is likely a lower estimate) -- whereas the calculations that Mattogno (and myself, others) have used charitably to determine how many corpses could be fit into reported grave volume is 0.008m3 (approximately that of a basketball) per corpse. Even for partial reduction of corpses, the amount of wood needed is many times greater than that of corpses, and the majority of the cremation process is spent just extracting and evaporating water content from the corpses. Then, there's a lengthy but less fuel-intensive phase where organic matter (e.g. proteins, collagen, fat) is combusted, followed thereafter by the actual calcination of bones (eventually making fragmentation possible).

What we see in the above Dresden photo is corpses that barely made it into the calcination phase, if at all (minimal fragmentation, mostly charred remains, lots of organic matter still visible). This does require less wood (which I think is why Nessie is drifting into the direction of admitting incomplete cremations) but, unfortunately for Nessie, by the time corpses are well-into the phase of burning off organic matter, most of the wood quantity that would be needed for complete cremation has already been used via evaporation and partial organic combustion. That is, we would be seeing at most a ~50% reduction in total wood required per corpse. This takes us from ~300-600kg per corpse (charitable approximation for emaciated corpses on outdoor pyres and especially with green wood) down to perhaps 150-300kg (likely too low but, again, being charitable). But then the volume of grave space per corpse has more than quadrupled (0.008m3 vs 0.035m3), as already noted.

None of this comes remotely close to explaining how, for example at Sobibor, some 250,000 Jews could fit into less than ~6,500m3 of potential cremation burial volume (based on only ~70% of grave drills reporting any ash/cremains, partial layering with modest cremation layers, and some accounting for major non-grave disturbances, e.g. grave-robbing and tree removal, from original 13,700m3 total 'grave' area per Kola and Mazurek), given the necessary proportion of at least some 5-10x as much wood ash per corpse ash by volume. The 250,000 corpses alone would occupy at least 8,750m3 if reduced to the extent we see in the Dresden photo above (~0.035m3). The wood ash would require [8,750 x 5 = ] 43,750m3, assuming just 5x wood-to-corpse ash ratio due to incomplete cremation. But then we are now at [43,750 + 8,750 = ] 52,500m3 of ash/cremains total, which is almost four times the entirety of all (13,700m3) reported 'grave volume' at Sobibor, even without accounting for soil, sand, lime, wax-fat corpses, and other materials explicitly reported as distinct layers therein, nor with any accounting for known grave robbing and other disturbances, etc. In actual fact, the claim of 250,000 corpses at Sobibor would require a grave volume of at least some 7-8x what is actually found there, and all of this assuming that the 'ash layers' did not frequently or occasionally include things like burnt structures, Jewish property (e.g. clothing, wood, furniture), etc., despite Sobibor being a known property-sorting operation amid a typhus epidemic with lots of infested items.

Nessie is not able to comprehend that this "math doesn't math" in any way whatosever that can possibly favor his position. It is simply dead in the water -- there is no way to salvage it.

Overall, this shift to "incomplete cremations" does nothing for Nessie's attempt to salvage the "dead horse" that is the 'Holocaust' narrative. It's also funny that the prior generation of exterminationist activists took much care to argue for complete and efficient cremations with ground-up bones, and Nessie is here screwing the pooch to repeatedly affirm that charred bones/remains were common.

[Callafangers]

On closer inspection, I am thinking these Dresden cremations were even less complete than initially interpreted. I at first thought this was a femur bone:

boneshoe.jpg (56.95 KiB) Viewed 3 times

...but am now thinking it is one of several partly-burnt shoes visible in the larger photo. The amount of clothing and shoes unburnt in this photo are very suggestive that the cremations had barely entered the organic combustion phase, which makes sense given the smaller quantities of wood (and ash) visible in the various photographs of the pyre(s).

Altogether, this makes Dresden even less comparable/applicable in conversations about Reinhardt camps, where it is claimed explicitly that these were for destruction of evidence (hence, complete cremation being a staple of the entire project, contrary to Nessie's bizarre 180° flip-flop).