Chronology of the Holocaust

[Stubble]

No lets. It is the subject of the thread. Produce an evidenced chronology of the history of the Jews of Kiev after they were gathered at Babi Yar in 1941, through to the end of the war in 1945.

According to Peter Longerich - Holocaust: The Nazi Persecution and Murder of the Jews, the leader of Einsatzkommando VI said that 70 to 90 percent of Ukrainian Jews fled and that this saved them the trouble of deporting them to the Urals. I assume that this proportion in Kiev was the same.

According to Wannsee, there were 3 million Jews in Ukraine, which means that 2.1 to 2.7 million Jews survived. In the Baltic countries there were relatively few. How many were there in German-occupied western Russia? Were they reached even if they had time to evacuate to the interior as those in Ukraine allegedly did?

What about the Jews of Kiev, who had gathered at Babi Yar?

I'm going to be very blunt,

Where is the fucking trench in the ravine? Where is it? Where is the damn trench everybody says was there?

It vanished, like a fart in the wind.

There was no trench.

Assuming a slaughter in that ravine, the bodies were taken someplace else. This also explains it taking days there, given 1,000+ men with over 100,000 rounds of ammunition.

[HansHill]

"The SD's goal was to make Latvia judenrein, a Nazi neologism which can be translated as "Jew free."...Hinrich Lohse, who reported to Alfred Rosenberg rather than the SD's boss, Heinrich Himmler, wanted not so much to exterminate the Jews but rather to steal all their property, confine them to ghettos, and use them as slave laborers for Germany's war effort...The Nazis wanted to eliminate the Latvian Jews in Riga to make room for Jews from Germany and Austria to be deported to the Riga ghetto.... Himmler told Jeckeln to kill the entire Riga ghetto and to instruct Lohse, should he object, that this was an order of Himmler's and also of Adolf Hitler's: "Tell Lohse it is my order, which is also the Führer's wish""

Emphasis mine.

No he didn't, as I've explained to BA earlier. Himmler cannot be placed where Jeckeln claimed he was during his NKVD interrogation, re-read my reply to BA.

[Numar Patru]

"The SD's goal was to make Latvia judenrein, a Nazi neologism which can be translated as "Jew free."...Hinrich Lohse, who reported to Alfred Rosenberg rather than the SD's boss, Heinrich Himmler, wanted not so much to exterminate the Jews but rather to steal all their property, confine them to ghettos, and use them as slave laborers for Germany's war effort...The Nazis wanted to eliminate the Latvian Jews in Riga to make room for Jews from Germany and Austria to be deported to the Riga ghetto.... Himmler told Jeckeln to kill the entire Riga ghetto and to instruct Lohse, should he object, that this was an order of Himmler's and also of Adolf Hitler's: "Tell Lohse it is my order, which is also the Führer's wish""

Emphasis mine.

No he didn't, as I've explained to you earlier. Himmler cannot be placed where Jeckeln claimed he was during his NKVD interrogation, re-read my reply to BA.

It’s your contention that because Himmler and Jeckeln did not meet on a certain date in a certain place that his orders would have been substantively different from what he’d already been doing, notably in Kyiv? Really?

Jeckeln had one job at this point in time. He was transferred to Riga to do that job.

[Numar Patru]

Do you understand that there was a conflict of interest between the civil authority in Latvia and the SS there?

Obfuscation. I'll await Nellie's answer.

lol, such a dumb response.

It’s the heart of the matter

[Nessie]

....

What about the Jews of Kiev, who had gathered at Babi Yar?

I'm going to be very blunt,

Where is the fucking trench in the ravine? Where is it? Where is the damn trench everybody say?

It vanished, like a fart in the wind.

There was no trench.

Assuming a slaughter in that ravine, the bodies were taken someplace else. This also explains it taking days there, given 1,000+ men with over 100,000 rounds of ammunition.

You said "Fuck it, babi yar is a fucking hoax too, and so is the bit about the German jews in Riga. At least now I can stop troubling myself with trying to find out what the hell actually happened there. Nothing happened.". Then you said "No, you just fail to understand sarcasm". So I ask you to evidence what happened and you claim it was a hoax and nothing happened.

Please try again and produce evidence that the Jews left Babi Yar alive and where they were, at least in 1942, but preferably till 1945 and how many were still alive then. This thread is about chronology, so go and evidence one.

[Stubble]

....

What about the Jews of Kiev, who had gathered at Babi Yar?

I'm going to be very blunt,

Where is the fucking trench in the ravine? Where is it? Where is the damn trench everybody say?

It vanished, like a fart in the wind.

There was no trench.

Assuming a slaughter in that ravine, the bodies were taken someplace else. This also explains it taking days there, given 1,000+ men with over 100,000 rounds of ammunition.

You said "Fuck it, babi yar is a fucking hoax too, and so is the bit about the German jews in Riga. At least now I can stop troubling myself with trying to find out what the hell actually happened there. Nothing happened.". Then you said "No, you just fail to understand sarcasm". So I ask you to evidence what happened and you claim it was a hoax and nothing happened.

Please try again and produce evidence that the Jews left Babi Yar alive and where they were, at least in 1942, but preferably till 1945 and how many were still alive then. This thread is about chronology, so go and evidence one.

Dude, you obviously missed my post on the previous page responding to bombs about the exact same question. Needless to say, unlike a trench full of evidence, my post is there, and I posit an opinion to how a killing could have taken place there. I even assume that it did.

[Nessie]

"The SD's goal was to make Latvia judenrein, a Nazi neologism which can be translated as "Jew free."...Hinrich Lohse, who reported to Alfred Rosenberg rather than the SD's boss, Heinrich Himmler, wanted not so much to exterminate the Jews but rather to steal all their property, confine them to ghettos, and use them as slave laborers for Germany's war effort...The Nazis wanted to eliminate the Latvian Jews in Riga to make room for Jews from Germany and Austria to be deported to the Riga ghetto.... Himmler told Jeckeln to kill the entire Riga ghetto and to instruct Lohse, should he object, that this was an order of Himmler's and also of Adolf Hitler's: "Tell Lohse it is my order, which is also the Führer's wish""

Emphasis mine.

No he didn't, as I've explained to BA earlier. Himmler cannot be placed where Jeckeln claimed he was during his NKVD interrogation, re-read my reply to BA.

Jecklen commanded a group of the Einsatzgruppen. His task was to kill Jews and make the east Jew free. Lohse was Commissioner for the Ostland, which included Riga and his task was to utilise Jews for slave labour. However, Jecklen got his authority and way over Lohse, he did and the Riga Jews were shot at Rumbula.

The conflict between the two policies continued throughout the war, until later in 1944 when Himmler ordered the end of all gassing operations, but even then, I believe limited gassings still took place at A-B.

[HansHill]

It’s your contention that because Himmler and Jeckeln did not meet on a certain date in a certain place that his orders would have been substantively different from what he’d already been doing, notably in Kyiv? Really?

Jeckeln had one job at this point in time. He was transferred to Riga to do that job.

Except it's not just a certain date and a certain place, is it? It's the certain date that he claimed during his interrogation, and the certain place he claimed during his interrogation.

Here is the citation given on the Wiki article as provided by Nessie:



The source given 7 links directly back to the NKVD interrogation i taught you about earlier.

Perhaps you are going to ask us to dispense with this account and interpret it some other way?

[TlsMS93]

What about the Jews of Kiev, who had gathered at Babi Yar?

Who said they gathered? The photos they provide show prisoners of war digging in the ravine and German police watching. Other photos show clothes on the ground.

From the photos, there are no piles of clothes as one would expect from 33,000 people. So the scope of these executions lacks more conclusive evidence.

[Numar Patru]

It’s your contention that because Himmler and Jeckeln did not meet on a certain date in a certain place that his orders would have been substantively different from what he’d already been doing, notably in Kyiv? Really?

Jeckeln had one job at this point in time. He was transferred to Riga to do that job.

Except it's not just a certain date and a certain place, is it? It's the certain date that he claimed during his interrogation, and the certain place he claimed during his interrogation.

Here is the citation given on the Wiki article as provided by Nessie:



The source given 7 links directly back to the NKVD interrogation i taught you about earlier.

Perhaps you are going to ask us to dispense with this account and interpret it some other way?

Yeah, he got the date and/or place wrong. The Mommsen article is almost 40 years old, by the way. I’d rely on something more recent, like Browning, on decision making on the final solution.

[Numar Patru]

Btw, why are we saying Jeckeln didn’t meet with Himmler? Himmler was in Berlin on 10 and 11 November.

[Stubble]

I suppose as long as they pick up the shovel and lay down the sand and quick lime, then, you know, stick their face in caustic soda, that makes it believable, right? You know, because hopelessness or whatever. When there are between 10,000 and 30,000 people being executed by, let's go with your high end estimate, 1,000 people, although I doubt such numbers were mustered repeatedly, we will just go with it.

Waiting in line for half a week waiting for their turn to go pick up the shovel, and then lay face down in a ditch 'sardine style' waiting to get shot in the head.

After all, wouldn't want to upset the murderous Germans, they might get murdery and do a murder. Oh, wait.

As an exercise, if you're interested, why don't you lay out exactly what you think I believe about what happened, at Babi Yar and Rumbula. Be specific. Like you think I think the victims dug the graves and were laying down quicklime almost simultaneous with shootings? I'm not sure why you're proceeding down these lines

I'm still working on getting the tapestry together. I can give you my opinion about barbi yar, but, it's not fully supported by the 'eyewitness' testimony or the documents.

-Babi Yar-

The Ukrainian irregular militia circulated a flyer insulting the jews of Kiev and encouraging them to come out for resettlement.

The mobile shower truck was parked at the top of the ravine and the executioners, armed with pistol, rifle and machine gun hunkered down on the other side of the ravine and waited.

Some jews fled the night prior and some showed up for relocation.

The ones that showed up for relocation (exact number unknown) were told to form up in columns and follow some form of official to the ravine for a quick shower before boarding waiting trucks further up the road for their safety.

They saw the shower truck, were assured the place was picked to provide some privacy, their escorts went to the mouth of the ravine and turned their backs.

The condemned disrobed and clothing was collected.

Then a whistle was blown when all friendly personnel were clear, the executioners leveled weapons from the top of the ravine on one side, and they killed the condemned.

Maybe.

Hard to tell from my house though.

I can tell you there is an absolute lack of, a trench, a mass grave, spent rounds, or any other evidence in that ravine though, and I can tell you that the 'eyewitness' accounts are fucking insane.

Well shit, reading fast, I inverted your question...

I assume you believe the 'sardine method' report you provided earlier is accurate. I also assume you believe the orthodox narrative concerning the events that transpired. I further assume that the posts you have provided this far have been an accurate representation of what you think happened at babi yar.

So, 33,771 jews, gathered for relocation. Groups of ten went to a slit trench and laid in it head to foot sardine style. They were executed. 10 more were brought up. They covered the dead with sand and caustic soda, they laid face down in it, they were shot in the head. Wash, rinse, repeat for 2 weeks. Some time later, the bodies were exhumed and burned on pyres, somehow, this time, everything was obliterated and not even stratification remained, a remarkable feat.

I apologize for getting your question backwards.

[HansHill]

Yeah, he got the date and/or place wrong. The Mommsen article is almost 40 years old, by the way. I’d rely on something more recent, like Browning, on decision making on the final solution.

Finally we're getting somewhere. What we have then, and this is very important a concession that every secondary source on the execution order is wrong (including the one used in this very thread to support a Wikipedia article, which is why I'm focusing on it), because the primary source supporting them is wrong.

In other words, your narrative is a house of cards.

Correspondingly, you are left appealing to confirmation bias: "Extermination orders were given therefore any evidence to the contrary must be defined out of possibility to maintain my position". I can understand why you are clinging to this, because without it you are sunk. But you must realise it looks pathetic.

[Numar Patru]

Yeah, he got the date and/or place wrong. The Mommsen article is almost 40 years old, by the way. I’d rely on something more recent, like Browning, on decision making on the final solution.

Finally we're getting somewhere. What we have then, and this is very important a concession that every secondary source on the execution order is wrong (including the one used in this very thread to support a Wikipedia article, which is why I'm focusing on it), because the primary source supporting them is wrong.

In other words, your narrative is a house of cards.

Correspondingly, you are left appealing to confirmation bias: "Extermination orders were given therefore any evidence to the contrary must be defined out of possibility to maintain my position". I can understand why you are clinging to this, because without it you are sunk. But you must realise it looks pathetic.

Yeah, except I looked at the Dienstkalender, and Himmler was definitely in Berlin on 11 November.

[Numar Patru]

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