The CODOH Revisionist Forum

Experiments on outdoor cremation were carried out in Australia in 2018. Germar Rudolf has recently commented on it:

https://codoh.com/library/document/open ... revisited/

Here's the actual experiment:

https://codoh.com/library/document/expe ... cremation/

The results they got for this experiment were much higher than previous estimates by Mattogno and Holocaust Controversies. If this experiment is comparable to the conditions of the camps, the Reinhardt "extermination camps" and Auschwitz are pretty much dead.

I hope the researchers don't get in trouble for "holocaust denial". Can you imagine just working on a mundane experiment and then not realize you accidentally stumbled into holocaust denial?

However, I am very much interested in what the opposition has to say about this. I'm sure Roberto from HC has something, he always has some response to these things, no matter how convoluted and twisted his reasoning. Although I'm not sure if he's active anymore.

So what is it? Is there something these experiments aren't catching that makes it not comparable to these camps?

Reminder that the Holocaust Controversies gurus think you can cremate a body with only 15 kilograms of wood.

Lest I be accused of straw-manning, here is the table, straight from their own "white paper."


Even that ridiculous low ball number would still present major difficulties, i.e., it still implies big undocumented wood deliveries.

Archie wrote: ↑Wed Nov 13, 2024 11:04 pmEven that ridiculous low ball number would still present major difficulties, i.e., it still implies big undocumented wood deliveries.

Are you sure that undocumented wood deliveries are a problem? All kinds of documentation didn't get preserved and it would make sense for Nazis to destroy any documentation of wood deliveries. Other revisionists elsewhere have posited document destruction for other things.

As the holocaust story was being developed in the immediate aftermath of the war claims of a wild nature were being distributed. These were mainly designed to be shocking and force the holocaust myths down the throats of rather naive public of the day. People read the papers and heard the news on the radio and took at face value. Few questioned anything they were told by the press.

These stories of course included the cremation en masse of hundreds of thousands of bodies on open air pyres. Treblinka was one such location where we were told to believe that the 800,000 bodies which had all been buried in large pits after having been gassed, were then removed from the ground and burned to a crisp on griddle irons or railway tracks.

No one thought to ask where the tens of thousands of tons of dried and suitable wood came from, was handled within the camp, was stored and was accounted for.

The problem for all these wild claims of the holocaust is science. The world moved on at a massive rate of knots after ww2, in just fifteen years man was circulating above the earth in tiny space ships. Things couldn't be claimed without the microscope of a rapidly advancing scientific world taking a look.

Hence these wild stories of mass cremations etc are just that, stories. Impossible in the real world in both practicability and time.

borjastick wrote: ↑Thu Nov 14, 2024 9:11 am Hence these wild stories of mass cremations etc are just that, stories. Impossible in the real world in both practicability and time.

The argument is that because a few cord of wood was processed for building was sent to say Sobibor, or Treblinka, it would be easy for wood to be supplied. Sobibor was a logging camp prior to being used by the Germans for whatever purpose it was really used for. I know it was used for 14f13 to a small degree, as well as transiting to labour camps. Bor in the language of the area means forest as in our term arboreal. Huge swaths of forest were not cut down at Sobibor, none at Treblinka. There is data on the exact amount of coal or coke shipped to Birkenau for the Kremas. Certainly not enough for the highly exaggerated cremation claims.

borjastick wrote: ↑Thu Nov 14, 2024 9:11 am As the holocaust story was being developed in the immediate aftermath of the war claims of a wild nature were being distributed. These were mainly designed to be shocking and force the holocaust myths down the throats of rather naive public of the day. People read the papers and heard the news on the radio and took at face value. Few questioned anything they were told by the press.

These stories of course included the cremation en masse of hundreds of thousands of bodies on open air pyres. Treblinka was one such location where we were told to believe that the 800,000 bodies which had all been buried in large pits after having been gassed, were then removed from the ground and burned to a crisp on griddle irons or railway tracks.

The earliest reports of cremations inside the AR camps came late 1942, from Polish people who lived and worked near to the camps, reporting to the Government in Exiles intelligence. Why would people near to Belzec, Sobibor and TII all start to make that up?

Those early reports were then corroborated by escaped prisoners, who all stated the cremations were not just of the newly dead, but also corpses exhumed from mass graves. That action, of exhumation and cremation, was being repeated all over the east, in the operation to hide how many people the Nazis were killing.

At the war's end and all the post-war trials, the SS and other camp staff all spoke to mass cremations taking place.

In 1945, Polish site examinations at Sobibor, Belzec and TII all found large areas of disturbed ground containing cremated human remains and ashes. In the 1960s the sites were memorialised, as grave robbers continually exposed the remains. In the 1990s, into the early 2000s, another set of archaeological and forensic camp site surveys found large areas of cremated remains and Belzec and Sobibor were covered over, so that cremains would not be visible on the surface. TII was the last site to be re-surveyed in the early 2010s and still, cremains could be found on the surface of the ground.

That is corroborating witness and archaeological evidence to prove mass cremations.

No one thought to ask where the tens of thousands of tons of dried and suitable wood came from, was handled within the camp, was stored and was accounted for.

The problem for all these wild claims of the holocaust is science. The world moved on at a massive rate of knots after ww2, in just fifteen years man was circulating above the earth in tiny space ships. Things couldn't be claimed without the microscope of a rapidly advancing scientific world taking a look.

Hence these wild stories of mass cremations etc are just that, stories. Impossible in the real world in both practicability and time.

Since revisionists cannot produce any witness or archaeological evidence to prove that there were no mass cremations or large areas of disturbed ground, they need another way to claim that did not happen.

They have latched onto an argument, where they study how much wood they think it would take to cremate so many people and then claim it is impossible to achieve and that every single witness lied (Polish local, Nazi camp staff and Jewish inmates) and that all those involved in site examinations have grossly exaggerated and/or lied about what they found.

To me and the vast majority of people, the flaw in that argument is obvious. Only revisionists cannot see.

Nessie wrote: ↑Thu Nov 14, 2024 10:05 am Since revisionists cannot produce any witness or archaeological evidence to prove that there were no mass cremations or large areas of disturbed ground, they need another way to claim that did not happen.

There are many reports of dead arriving with living passengers on transports. These were cremated.
'On 18 August 1942, Waffen SS officer Kurt Gerstein had witnessed at Belzec the arrival of "45 wagons with 6,700 people, of whom 1,450 were already dead on arrival". death trains

Explain how the dead on trains, cremated and buried, can be separated from those apparently murdered and processed in a similar manner. Did CSC identify a method?

Nazgul wrote: ↑Thu Nov 14, 2024 10:17 am

Nessie wrote: ↑Thu Nov 14, 2024 10:05 am Since revisionists cannot produce any witness or archaeological evidence to prove that there were no mass cremations or large areas of disturbed ground, they need another way to claim that did not happen.

There are many reports of dead arriving with living passengers on transports. These were cremated.
'On 18 August 1942, Waffen SS officer Kurt Gerstein had witnessed at Belzec the arrival of "45 wagons with 6,700 people, of whom 1,450 were already dead on arrival". death trains

Explain how the dead on trains, cremated and buried, can be separated from those apparently murdered and processed in a similar manner. Did CSC identify a method?

You know the answer to that question.

It is up to revisionists to provide evidence that the only cremations were of people who had died on the trains, which poses a problem for you and PR, who claim that the transports were not arriving packed full of people. It is odd that you quote a Nazi who speaks to a mass transport, when you try to argue that the transports were dropping people off en route.

Nessie wrote: ↑Thu Nov 14, 2024 12:20 pm

Explain how the dead on trains, cremated and buried, can be separated from those apparently murdered and processed in a similar manner.

It is up to revisionists to provide evidence that the only cremations were of people who had died on the trains, which poses a problem for you and PR, who claim that the transports were not arriving packed full of people. It is odd that you quote a Nazi who speaks to a mass transport, when you try to argue that the transports were dropping people off en route.

Read the above again carefully, in bold. Please do not change what was asked.

Nazgul wrote: ↑Thu Nov 14, 2024 12:26 pm

Nessie wrote: ↑Thu Nov 14, 2024 12:20 pm

Explain how the dead on trains, cremated and buried, can be separated from those apparently murdered and processed in a similar manner.

It is up to revisionists to provide evidence that the only cremations were of people who had died on the trains, which poses a problem for you and PR, who claim that the transports were not arriving packed full of people. It is odd that you quote a Nazi who speaks to a mass transport, when you try to argue that the transports were dropping people off en route.

Read the above again carefully, in bold. Please do not change what was asked.

As I have already said, you already know the answer to your question. It is a loaded question, that suggests I have claimed that the cremated remains can be separated.

Now, deal with my point that you have been claiming people were dropped off en route and then you switch to quoting a Nazi who describes a packed train arriving at the camp.

Nessie wrote: ↑Thu Nov 14, 2024 10:05 am The earliest reports of cremations inside the AR camps came late 1942, from Polish people who lived and worked near to the camps, reporting to the Government in Exiles intelligence. Why would people near to Belzec, Sobibor and TII all start to make that up?

Those early reports were then corroborated by escaped prisoners, who all stated the cremations were not just of the newly dead, but also corpses exhumed from mass graves. That action, of exhumation and cremation, was being repeated all over the east, in the operation to hide how many people the Nazis were killing.

Why don't you quote the most impressive of these testimonies for us?

Suppose we have an account of some burning at a camp. How would you distinguish between burning of say 900 vs 9,000 vs 90,000 vs 900,000 bodies? It seems to me like your method of checking for whether there are testimonies about "burning" (binary yes/no check) wouldn't establish the order of magnitude. Which is sort of the whole point.

Do you accept Muehlenkamp's claim that only 15 kg of wood were needed per body?

According to Germar's summary, pig carcasses were used in this study. I would guess that pigs are a lot fatter than WWII era humans which would likely aid the burning. Although we often estimate things in terms of fuel to body mass ratio, the composition definitely matters.

The denser corpses are packed on a pyre, the less efficient a cremation is. Best results are obtained with only a single layer of corpses, with the corpses spaced apart to allow the fire to develop fully, and thus flames to engulf the corpse.

Fuel efficiency is highest when only a part of the firewood is placed beneath the corpse, and the rest then added gradually with the progressing cremation, to keep the fire lively and the corpse engulfed. With these conditions, “a minimum of 5 times the weight of the body in dry wood is necessary to achieve almost complete destruction of all organic matter (<10%).”

If all wood is stacked beneath the corpse, and the pyre is then left unattended, the fuel requirement increases to a “minimum of nine times the weight of the body in dry wood is necessary to achieve almost complete destruction of all organic matter (<10%).”

Mattogno originally assumed a 3.5 ratio in his work. This is saying 5x with active management. And closer to 9x if the pyre is left unattended. Muehlenkamp assumes something like 0.56 (sic!). And he assumes smaller bodies so all together he assumes about one tenth as much fuel as Mattogno says.

Nessie wrote: ↑Thu Nov 14, 2024 12:51 pm Now, deal with my point that you have been claiming people were dropped off en route and then you switch to quoting a Nazi who describes a packed train arriving at the camp.

This question is off topic for the thread. I was referring to the high probability of people getting dropped off, referring only to those transports indicated in the Fplo documents. Whether special secretive trains arrived is another issue. There are instances of many dead arriving at the destination point, they would have to be dealt with, probably cremation. With all the rumours circulating around no doubt someone would have thought that they were the bodies of murdered victims. Hearing no shots they would conclude gas was used.

fireofice wrote: ↑Thu Nov 14, 2024 12:28 am

Archie wrote: ↑Wed Nov 13, 2024 11:04 pmEven that ridiculous low ball number would still present major difficulties, i.e., it still implies big undocumented wood deliveries.

Are you sure that undocumented wood deliveries are a problem? All kinds of documentation didn't get preserved and it would make sense for Nazis to destroy any documentation of wood deliveries. Other revisionists elsewhere have posited document destruction for other things.

If we take your argument, though, then this invalidates the entire exterminationist position, which relies on the notion (as Nessie has emphasized repeatedly), that we cannot infer what 'makes sense' but, rather, only what is evidenced to have happened.

If it would make sense for 'Nazis' to destroy documentation of wood deliveries, then it also makes sense for them to destroy documentation of Jewish transit records and destinations in the East.

There is no escaping this.

Since revisionists cannot produce any witness or archaeological evidence to prove that there were no mass cremations or large areas of disturbed ground, they need another way to claim that did not happen.

Nessie

No we don't have to, you've gone down that crazy route again of saying that it is for us to prove a negative and you don't have to do anything. You've done an 'Eric' again... Believe me when I tell you that if 800,000 corpses had been burned to a pile of dust we would know all about it and the evidence would be everywhere.

The logic of you guys is staggeringly bizarre. I'll cut you some slack at the moment though, just a little, because The Donald was re-elected to the White House last week and you've probably been distracted by having no sex, cutting your hair, booking tickets to Mexico or Canada and generally bed wetting all over the shop.