The CODOH Revisionist Forum

I started a thread here because I don't want the other thread veering off topic.

The Jews today are real Jews, not fake Jews. "The Thirteenth Tribe" was a book written by a Jew named Arthur Koestler in order to reduce antisemitism.

Koestler argued that a proof that Ashkenazi Jews have no biological connection to biblical Jews would remove the racial basis of European anti-Semitism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Koestler

Fact is, Jews are from the Levant and created original Judaism. DNA completely debunks the Khazar theory:
https://thuletide.wordpress.com/2021/01 ... -european/
https://thuletide.wordpress.com/2021/11 ... poiler-no/

Jews are a race, not a religion. So criticizing Christians for "misunderstanding" what Jews are misses the mark. The Talmud is later commentary on the Torah/Tanakh, but the Torah/Tanakh is just as Jewish.

Christianity was created by Jews. Jesus was a Jew. Jesus, being a Jew, had conflicts with other Jews. This doesn't prove anything about Jesus not being Jewish or anything like that. Jesus, if he existed (and there is a good case to be made that he didn't, see: On the Historicity of Jesus: Why We Might Have Reason for Doubt) then he was just a rabbi who was an apocalyptic prophet who thought the word was going to end, but didn't. He wanted the gentile Roman world destroyed by his God Yahweh so that the Jews could reign supreme. Jesus, if he existed, was just as much of a Jew as modern Jews.

fireofice wrote: ↑Fri Oct 18, 2024 9:32 pm I started a thread here because I don't want the other thread veering off topic.

The Jews today are real Jews, not fake Jews. "The Thirteenth Tribe" was a book written by a Jew named Arthur Koestler in order to reduce antisemitism.

Koestler argued that a proof that Ashkenazi Jews have no biological connection to biblical Jews would remove the racial basis of European anti-Semitism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Koestler

Fact is, Jews are from the Levant and created original Judaism. DNA completely debunks the Khazar theory:
https://thuletide.wordpress.com/2021/01 ... -european/
https://thuletide.wordpress.com/2021/11 ... poiler-no/

Jews are a race, not a religion. So criticizing Christians for "misunderstanding" what Jews are misses the mark. The Talmud is later commentary on the Torah/Tanakh, but the Torah/Tanakh is just as Jewish.

Christianity was created by Jews. Jesus was a Jew. Jesus, being a Jew, had conflicts with other Jews. This doesn't prove anything about Jesus not being Jewish or anything like that. Jesus, if he existed (and there is a good case to be made that he didn't, see: On the Historicity of Jesus: Why We Might Have Reason for Doubt) then he was just a rabbi who was an apocalyptic prophet who thought the word was going to end, but didn't. He wanted the gentile Roman world destroyed by his God Yahweh so that the Jews could reign supreme. Jesus, if he existed, was just as much of a Jew as modern Jews.

I'm guessing you haven't read it and you would also argue that The Elders of Zion book is somewhat misleading and anti-semitic too regardless of how accurate it is. I have just checked the Thirteenth Tribe book again and nowhere does he state or claim that it is an effort to reduce anti-semitism.

Jews are not a race if his theory is correct. Judaism is a religion followed by, for the most part, a bunch of Khazar ex football hooligans who are so hell bent on being 'jewish and all that goes with it they overwhelm all discussion on the religion of judaism. The dna argument isn't conclusive by any stretch and is only forwarded by jewish academics. Given the look of a typical asjkenazi jew as shown in most holocaust era pictures and the amount of inbreeding and illnesses inside the cult of judaism as shown by the ashkenazis and their offspring we all think we know what jews look like and that there is no difference. But look at Sephardics from Iran and some of the others and you'll see they are very different to those from the 13th tribe group.

The recent population genetics reportedly suggests that Ashkenazis are part Levantine and part European. The most likely scenario seems to be that a group of mostly male Jews migrated to what is now Italy and married local European women. But after this initial mixture, it seems they were mostly endogamous.

https://westhunt.wordpress.com/2014/06/ ... -ancestry/

Kevin MacDonald in A People That Shall Dwell Alone, the first in his trilogy on Jews (overshadowed by the third volume, Culture of Critique), traces Jewish ethnocentrism and separatism to early practices in the Hebrew Bible. He argues that things like kosher diet, circumcision, sabbath observance were all factors that had the effect, whether intentional or not, of separating Jews from "the goyim." Initially, they would not have been very genetically distinct from other tribes in that region, but a group will become genetically distinctive if they are endogamous for long enough. Nowadays Ashkenazis are a race of sorts in that they are genetically related and distinctive. A "German" Jew was much closer genetically to a "Russian" Jew than to a "fellow" German.

As an aside on "mythicism" which is the idea that Jesus did not exist at all and was 100% a later literary construct. I do not think that position is well-supported at all. That's a good example of over-eager revisionism and bad historical method. Richard Carrier is smart guy, and I will admit I have not read his 700+ page book. But I have watched several debates on this and read many blogs etc about it over the years. The arguments are a bit involved, but there is a vast literature on the "historical Jesus," much of which is written by non-believers or by liberal Christians, and the idea that Jesus never existed is seen, rightly I think, as a crank position. If you go through early sources and pull out the most basic biographic information, most of it is quite plausible and reasonably consistent (e.g., from Nazareth, was a follower of John the Baptist, was a teacher and faith healer, had disciples, was betrayed and crucified).

Borjastick, if you really want to take the "fake Jews" position, I suggest going along with Ron Unz's theory that they were Phoenicians.

https://www.unz.com/runz/prof-john-beat ... -the-jews/

I think his theory is nonsense as I think it's clear that those who wrote the Old Testament were real Jews, but that's your best bet as that's the one false theory most consistent with genetic evidence.

Archie, I understand your position on Jesus. I in fact do concede that Jesus being a real historical person is a plausible hypothesis, which is why I gave several links as to what I think Jesus was like if he existed. However, your claims about what historians think is a bad argument. Most historians also believe in the Holocaust, remember? Also it's not true that none take it seriously. Carrier has provided a list of historians who do take it seriously here:

https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/21420

As for motivations, liberal Christians still want Jesus to exist for obvious reasons, atheists with certain political agendas want a "historical Jesus" to conform to their views. And others could just be mistaken or caught up in their pet theories.

https://vridar.org/2018/10/18/the-phlogiston-jesus/

fireofice wrote: ↑Sun Oct 20, 2024 12:24 am Borjastick, if you really want to take the "fake Jews" position, I suggest going along with Ron Unz's theory that they were Phoenicians.

https://www.unz.com/runz/prof-john-beat ... -the-jews/

I think his theory is nonsense as I think it's clear that those who wrote the Old Testament were real Jews, but that's your best bet as that's the one false theory most consistent with genetic evidence.

Archie, I understand your position on Jesus. I in fact do concede that Jesus being a real historical person is a plausible hypothesis, which is why I gave several links as to what I think Jesus was like if he existed. However, your claims about what historians think is a bad argument. Most historians also believe in the Holocaust, remember? Also it's not true that none take it seriously. Carrier has provided a list of historians who do take it seriously here:

https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/21420

As for motivations, liberal Christians still want Jesus to exist for obvious reasons, atheists with certain political agendas want a "historical Jesus" to conform to their views. And others could just be mistaken or caught up in their pet theories.

https://vridar.org/2018/10/18/the-phlogiston-jesus/

The Thirteenth Tribe thesis is strong and solid. The Khazars were a bunch of rogues and vagabonds who decided upon the jewish religion and went full-on into it. I see no other rational explanation so my money if with Koesttler thanks for your advice though. I suggest you read the book and then proffer an opinion.