The CODOH Revisionist Forum

Intro

Much of the debate between revisionists and the mainstream centers around the purpose of the so-called "Operation Reinhardt" camps which are designated in common parlance (but not in Documents) as Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka. This is a thread to take a step back and nail down exactly what Aktion Reinhardt was: what it denoted, who was in charge, how it was carried out. The mainstream interpretation of Operation Reinhardt is wrong and untenable.

I spent some time discussing the issue of Aktion Reinhardt with some people from the Skeptic Forum/Holocaust Controversies blog. The thread is here, although I do not exactly recommend reading through the whole thread as there is a lot of back-and-forth and the Skeptic forum has since removed the ability to embed images in the thread, removing a lot of context of the original discussion: Aktion Reinhardt discussion on Skeptic Forums

What was Operation Reinhardt?

The mainstream position is that Aktion Reinhardt denoted the secret plan to exterminate the Jews of General Government. The story goes, this policy was assigned by Himmler directly to Globocnik, the SS and Police Leader (SSPF) of the District Lublin, and it was named in honor of Reinhard Heydrich who had been assassinated by partisans in Prague.

The position which will be proposed here is that Aktion Reinhardt denoted a large-scale operation for the collection, sorting, delousing, transportation, and distribution of confiscated Jewish property in the General Government. This interpretation is not exactly new. It was in fact identified as such in the General Findings of the WVHA trial from the NMT (1950):

The purpose of the action [Reinhardt] was to gather into the Reich all the Jewish manpower and wealth which could be reached.

The latter interpretation has also been accepted by a few mainstream historians, which I'll discuss shortly, but the consensus among historians is fervently that AR was the name of the policy to exterminate the Jews. This position is untenable, but it's a big problem for the mainstream because they lack any alternative policy framework to point to in order to explain how the extermination operation was supposedly organized.

Lastly, some Revisionists including Carlo Mattogno have briefly acknowledged the revised interpretation of AR, the interpretation concluded by the NMT, and presented a mild endorsement of it without digging too deeply or analyzing the implications of this being true, especially as this pertains to Globocnik's camps.


Reinhard or Reinhardt?

One of the core controversies surrounding the meaning of "Operation Reinhardt" has been the debate over who this operation was named after. The mainstream consensus is that this operation was named after Reinhard Heydrich. I mentioned earlier that some historians acknowledge that this operation was named after the State Secretary of the Reich Ministry of Finance, Reinhard Heydrich. For example, mainstream historian Joseph Poprzeczny who wrote a fairly recent biography on Globocnik:

In fact, the term "Aktion Reinhardt" was originally the codename for the seizure of Jewish wealth and property. However, this is complicated by the fact that this robbing of the victims was sometimes even referred to as "Eisatz R," with the word Reinhardt stemming not from Reinhard Heydrich's given name but from a Fritz Reinhardt, a senior Reich Finance Ministry official.

...

I accept that the name was taken from Fritz Reinhardt, a Reich Finance Ministry official, not from the SS-Gruppenfuhrer Reinhard Heydrich, as so many contend. Professor Ian Kershaw says of Fritz Reinhardt that he "hinted at the regime's interest in the material outcome of the mass murder of around 1.75 million Jews (mainly from Poland).... Mistakenly, SS-men involved in the 'Action' attributed the name to Reinhard Heydrich."

Why is this an important issue? The orthodox DeathCamps website notes (my emphasis):

3. Another work has suggested that the code name was taken from the name of the State Secretary in the Reich Finance Ministry, Fritz Reinhardt. Mistakenly, SS men involved in the "Aktion" attributed the name to Reinhard Heydrich.

4. This theory has been strenuously disputed. "The notion that Operation Reinhard was a program for collecting and exploiting Jewish property and was named after the State Secretary of the Finance Ministry, Fritz Reinhardt, is seemingly without foundation and finds no support in the surviving documents."

5. It does seem inherently unlikely that a murderous operation of the complexity of "Aktion Reinhard" would be named after an economist. The implication of naming the "Aktion" after Fritz Reinhardt is that the prime motivation was the expropriation of Jewish property.

Essentially the mainstream admits that if AR was named after Reinhardt then that implies AR was not an extermination policy. So they really cannot concede this point. But logically there are many, many points in favor of the fact that it was named after Reinhardt:

• Although there is inconsistency in the spelling of "Reinhardt", sometimes spelled as "Reinhard" or much less commonly "Reinhart", the "Reinhardt" spelling is the most common and the one used consistently in the most official documents (i.e. stamps, official reports to Himmler, WVHA documentation, etc.)
  
• A priori it makes much more sense for the operation to be named after the real spelling of Reinhardt's last name than a misspelling of Heydrich's first name.
• The Reich Ministry of Finance was the ultimate recipient of the proceeds of the operation. AR was an enormous logistical challenge with the transportation, sorting, and documentation of all manner of valuables, and they were ultimately transported to WVHA headquarters and deposited into an account at the Reichsbank owned and operated by the Reich Ministry of Finance.
• High-level personnel from the Reichsbank confirmed that the ultimate management and delivery of the valuables was overseen by negotiation between the Reich Ministry of Finance, Himmler, and the Reichsbank.
• Fritz Reinhardt, the State Secretary of the Ministry of Finance, was a high-profile political figure who was deeply involved in other economic initiatives like the "Reinhardt Program", "Reinhardt Funds". Reinhardt also signed decrees directing the confiscation of Jewish property, like the Eleventh Ordinance, so Reinhardt was directly involved in policy governing the confiscation of Jewish property for years before AR. Consider this testimony from the WVHA trial:
  

  Q. What did you think the Reinhardt Fund was?
  
  A. The Reinhardt Fund I understood or thought to understand that the state secretary Reinhardt from the Reich Finance Ministry, who was an exponent of the Part and who was a friend of Schwerin von Krusiqk, who was Reich Finance Minister, had placed those funds at the disposal of the DWB. Reinhardt was also known to me from his work and his activity during peacetime for the very simple reason that he introduced in Germany communal administration in the big Reinhardt Reform which was the real taxation reform. He also established the Reinhardt Interest Bonuses. He compiled and wrote several books about taxation laws. Apart from that, all new taxes and finance reforms were actually taken care of by Reinhardt according to both the press and the propaganda. Furthermore, Reinhardt was written with "dt" at the end in this letter and as far as I know today Reinhard is spelled with a "d" at the end rather than a "dt". Apart from that, Herr Pohl once called me to his office, in Frank's presence, and told me that the Reich Finance Ministry wanted to give a credit to the DWB, if this would be possible.
  
  All I could understand from this was that this was actually a fund which was placed at the disposal of the DWB by the second highest official in the Reich Finance Ministry.
  
  BY JUDGE MUSMANNO:
  
  Q. May I ask a question, please?
  
  Is it customary for the name of the Minister to be attached to a purely governmental function?
  
  A. I'm afraid the translation didn't quite get through, Your Honor.
  
  Q. I'll put the question very specifically. The Reinhardt of whom you speak was Assistant Minister of the Treasury? Is that what I understand? Ministry of Finance, yes?
  
  A. Yes, that's right. Graf Schwerin von Krossigk was the Minister. The State Secretary was Reinhardt. Schwerin von Krossigk was the professional man and was Reich Minister even prior to 1933, and state secretary Reinhardt was SA Obergruppenfuehrer.
  
  Q. Anything coming out of the Ministry of Finance wouldn't bear the name of the Minister as such, would it, being a purely governmental operation?
  
  A. Yes, but as I have stated before, the real taxation reform was also called the Reinhardt real tax reform. I have to understand from that if this fund is called "the Reinhardt Fund" that the Reich Finance Ministry placed certain monies at the disposal of the DWB.
  
  Q. I can understand how, in the newspapers, the name could be attached to the operation, but, within the government itself, if it is a governmental action, I cannot understand why the name Reinhardt would be used.
  
  A. Yes, Mr. Federal Judge, such names in particular were chosen. You see, series of actions received the names of leading personalities. The reason why this was done was that the Fuehrer principle was to be shown more clearly by doing that.
  
  In Germany, even in governmental circles, one never spoke of a cabinet or a government, one always spoke of the man.
  
  BY DR. GAWLIK:
  
  Q. Witness, perhaps you can answer the following question.
  
  Would you please explain to the Tribunal, witness, the personality of the Finance Minister Schwerin Krossigk and the personality of Reinhardt. Tell us which of the two was the most important person and why it was not at all difficult to understand that fund wasn't called according to the name Schwerin von Krossigk but rather according to the State Secretary? what part did von Krossigk play in social life and what was the role of Mr. Reinhardt in public life?
  
  A. Mr. Defense Counsel, if I, as a rather young person, have to give you a judgment or my opinion on these two personalities I have to say that von Krossigk was the most important one of the two because he was a sensible, professionally very skilled man who, step by step, actually worked his way up to the position of Minister. Even in the democratic regime, Herr Reinhardt, up to 1933, was nothing but a simple teacher in a business school. It was only through the help of the Party that he became a SA-Gruppenfuehrer and SA Obergruppenfuehrer. It was he then who was placed a bit higher as an exponent of the Party, and all these things which von Krossigk had done to the German Reich while working hard, the financing, etc, all this, during the war, was said to have been done by Reinhardt. You could read in the paper: "Herr Reinhardt, and Reinhardt again." Reinhardt held speeches at every conference. The people in the Finance Ministry knew that the real man behind it all was von Krossigk. Others knew that, but we all knew that Reinhardt would be the one credited with everything. That was the reason that I didn't have a single doubt that Reinhardt was the man who had given the fund.

• Fritz Reinhardt was even featured in the film Triumph of the Will, demonstrating he was a high-profile figure. It makes sense that a large-scale operation directing the confiscation and utilization of Jewish property would be named after the high-profile figure involved in governing that policy and whose ministry was the ultimate owner of the valuables confiscated throughout the course of the action.

When I was discussing this with Nick Terry and Sergey Romanov from Holocaust Controversies, on thing they told me was that there was no testimonial evidence that this operation was named after State Secretary Reinhardt. But reading through the WVHA transcripts, I in fact found witnesses who testified to this understanding. At the WVHA trial Karl Sommer, a deputy chief of the WVHA was asked in examination:

Q. [sic] Therefore, I assume from your answer that from the type of watches which were being repaired here one could not draw the conclusion that these watches had been taken away from inmates who had been killed?

A. No, that assumption could not be drawn. I myself tried on one occasion to see an order according to which these watches had been confiscated. As far as I can recall, I talked to Melmer about that on one or two occasions. As far as I remember, it was Melmer told me at that time that these watches had been confiscated by virtue of a decree which the State Secretary Reinhardt in the Reich Ministry of Finance had issued, and that was the reason why this action had been given the name of Action Reinhardt.

No previous discussion on the "Reinhardt" naming controversy has acknowledged this evidence and Nick Terry et al. were not aware of it, so I can say that this is a unique piece of evidence I found as I was digging into this issue.

Implications of Aktion Reinhardt as an economic operation

Accepting that AR was an economic initiative for the utilization of confiscated Jewish property throughout the course of resettlement provides an alternative interpretation to Globocnik's operations in the General Government.

Globocnik was given a secret assignment that covered the General Government. But this assignment was not to secretly exterminate the Jews of General Government. The assignment was for SSPF Lublin to act as the chief administrator and recipient of all confiscated Jewish property, particularly clothing and jewelry, throughout the course of resettlement. To enact this, a department under SSPF Lublin IVa, Einsatz Reinhardt (see stamp above) was created under the Administrative branch to administer confiscated Jewish property.

This was an enormous initiative. It required many camps where this property was collected, searched, sorted. Useless property was destroyed. Clothing was deloused and sent to the Airfield camp in Lublin, the chief Headquarters of the SS Clothing Works which came under the command of Christian Wirth.

The connection of the SS Clothing Works to Treblinka is established by train transport documents:



The origin is "Treblinka", the sender is the Bekleidungswerk der Waffen-SS, Aussenstelle Lublin, or the Clothing Works of the Waffen-SS, Lublin Office. But wait, why is the "Lublin office" of the SS Clothing Works sending a shipment of fur form "Treblinka" to Lublin? Obviously, it had a branch in the Warsaw district which would have been ultimately under the command of Christian Wirth. This was T-II.

Treblinka as a sorting camp of the SS-Bekleidungswerk, Lublin

Revisionists in the past have suggested that Treblinka was either an extermination camp or a transit camp, there is not other option. I have come to disagree with this claim. There is another option, which is that Treblinka II was an outpost of the SS Clothing Works under Christian Wirth. As a Jewish workcamp, it would have been a primary camp for collecting, sorting, delousing, destroying useless property confiscated throughout the course of the deportations in the Warsaw district. The sorted and processed property would then be routed to the Aktion Reinhardt headquarters in Lublin (as the document here shows). It's worth acknowledging here that the only document designating the functionality of T-II designates it as an Arbeitslager, which would fit the interpretation I am proposing.

It's important to recognize that even the mainstream admits that T-II was a property sorting camp. They claim this was a side-effect/dual purpose, and the primary purpose was a secret extermination facility. I am claiming the primary purpose of T-II was to collect and sort personal property and valuables confiscated from Jewish settlers. An important implication of this is that not all the property collected or sorted at T-II was carried on-site by deportees.

There were other sorting camps that were very similar to the property sorting operation at Treblinka, Belzec, and Sobibor. I created a post on the Axis History Forum that compares the sorting-camp functionality of Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka described by witnesses to images of the Pabianince sorting camp in the Warthegau. This thread demonstrates that the functionality of the Pabianince sorting camp perfectly mirrors the functionality described at Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka.

There was also "Aktion Reinhardt" in Auschwitz, but even the mainstream position admits that this did not refer to the extermination orders, it referred to the processing of confiscated property. This operation was handled in Auschwitz-Birkenau in the large section of the camp called "Kanada." That's right, even the orthodox position concedes that Aktion Reinhardt was purely an economic policy at Auschwitz. I am merely saying that it was also purely describe an economic policy in the General Government which was chiefly administered by Globocnik.

While Revisionists have suggested that T-II served as a transit camp for the Warsaw District, I am suggesting it served as a sorting camp for the Warsaw District. That would make it less like Sobibor and more like the Pabianince sorting camp.

But where did they go?

This hypothesis in some ways kicks the can for the "where did they go" debate, but it still presents an important development. The mainstream, when they ask that question, are taking it for granted that the last known location of 800,000 - 1 million Jewish deportees was T-II. This is false. There is in fact no train documentation establishing that T-II itself was the primary destination of the deportees. There is in fact no documentation at all establishing this. All the mainstream does is assume that the "T" in the Hofle telegram denotes the exact camp we call T-II. That is not an assumption that should be granted because it is not supported by the evidence. The "best" evidence for it is the witness testimony, which is notoriously inconsistent and anachronistic.

"Witnesses" could not even formulate a basic layout of the what the camp was supposed to look like. There were published claims in the international press of an extermination camp at Treblinka before T-II even opened. None of the train documents specify T-II as the destination for deportation trains, and there is no documentation at all for the transport of any settlers to T-II. The "Treblinka extermination camp" seems to be an amalgamation of the nearby Malkinia junction, the Treblinka train station, Treblinka I, and Treblinka II. This inconsistent narrative coalesced around T-II due to the material culture found there- the large volume of discarded personal property. This is also what happened at Majdanek, as investigators interpreted the property delousing and storage facilities as providing the infrastructure for mass murder.

The existence of T-II is fully explained by the understanding of Aktion Reinhardt as an economic initiative for the administration of confiscated Jewish property. It explains the administrative interest of SSPF Lublin in T-II. It explains the documentary evidence, including documentation referring to this as a work camp. It also explains the archaeological evidence. It is well-known that Caroline Coll's archaelogical investigation of Treblinka uncovered no mass graves, but it did uncover a large amount of discarded personal property. The flawed assumption is that this personal property had to have been brought on-site by deportees rather than transported there specifically to be sorted and deloused as part of the GG-wide AR operation. It also explains Globocnik's extensive final reports to Himmler which are purely economic in nature and make no hint of any extermination operation.

T-II was one of many camps involved in Aktion Reinhardt. But this does not mean that it was an extermination camp or even a transit camp. There were many such camps that were composed of sorting facilities and workshops. T-II was likely a camp of that category rather than a transit facility like Sobibor.

T-II is several Km from the Malkinia junction which likely served as the "transit" hub as this is exactly what it was. It is also unlikely that all the deported settlers were even brought there. Butterfangers recently had an excellent thread which casts serious doubt on the dubious assumption that all the deportees were transported to T-II.

T-II wouldn't even be the first work camp "mistaken" as an extermination camp

The SS-Bekleidungswerk, Lublin also operated in Majdanek. The controversial delousing facilities were constructed on their work orders as shown by construction documents procured by Mattogno. It is well-known that Soviet investigators and witnesses falsely concluded that roughly 2 million people were murdered at Majdanek. If you ask Sergey Romanov why this happened, he will tell you that they came to this conclusion by observing the enormous warehouses of clothing and shoes. The "investigators" and witnesses had mistaken the warehouses of confiscated personal property as the "remains" of victims who had ostensibly been murdered on-site.

T-II, then, would just be yet another sorting camp and property storage depot mistaken as an extermination camp. The undoubtedly large piles of clothing and shoes, along with the hidden valuables which financed a well-known black market in the Treblinka area are all similar circumstances that would cause witnesses and "investigators" to assume a mass murder/cremation operation at a camp which was in fact dedicated to managing large volumes of confiscated property.

The orthodox position says that Aktion Reinhardt was the code-name for the extermination of the Jews. But if you ask them to provide a single document where "Reinhardt" was actually used as a code to describe this, they cannot provide a single document. On the other hand, there are literally thousands of documents which use the "Reinhardt" code-name to pertain specifically to the administration of confiscated property. The very first known document containing the "Reinhardt" codename pertained to a provisioning request for suitcases from a storage warehouse:



The mainstream clings to the interpretation of AR as the extermination codeword because they have no alternative. But it was in fact a secret economic operation that spanned the General Government and Auschwitz, and which was administered by SSPF Lublin and overseen by the WVHA and Himmler. The ultimate beneficiary of the financial proceeds was the Reich Ministry of Finance, of which Fritz Reinhardt was State Secretary. This economic initiative was named after him, and T-II served this purpose on behalf of SSPF Lublin in the Warsaw District.

This is a high level summary, there is a lot more detail I could go into on individual issues which I'll probably touch on later in the thread.

PrudentRegret wrote: ↑Sun Sep 29, 2024 4:27 pm ... There is in fact no train documentation establishing that T-II itself was the primary destination of the deportees. There is in fact no documentation at all establishing this. All the mainstream does is assume that the "T" in the Hofle telegram denotes the exact camp we call T-II. That is not an assumption that should be granted because it is not supported by the evidence....

The Hofle Telegram states "14-day report operation REINHARD".

https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/edu ... -telegram/

Your theory is that TII was part of AR. Since the Hofle Telegram is from a senior Nazi who worked on AR, which references AR, then the "Recorded arrivals" is the number of people arriving at the camp you agree was part of AR. Otherwise, you are arguing that the Treblinka AR camp, was the other nearby camp, but there is overwhelming evidence it was a penal, labour camp, to work the quarry, and there is nothing to evidence property sorting took place there.

The Ganzenmueller Letter records mass transports to the AR camps at Sobibor and Belzec, which is evidentially indicative that AR did involve the movement of people and not just their property. The Stroop Report specifically references TII as the camp mass transports of Jews from the Warsaw ghetto were taken to. There are ghetto transport records from all over occupied Europe, that record regular mass transports to Sobibor, Belzec and Treblinka. There is no evidence TI, the labour camp, was receiving transports on that scale.

The "best" evidence for it is the witness testimony, which is notoriously inconsistent and anachronistic.

You say that, because you cannot supply the name of a single witness who worked at TII, who speaks to its sole purpose as being a property sorting centre. A number of witnesses speak to their work of sorting property, who admit that they did not see gassings taking place. You are not even prepared to quote them.

"Witnesses" could not even formulate a basic layout of the what the camp was supposed to look like.

That is incorrect, they were consistent with the general layout of the camp, where the staff accommodation was located, the Lazarete, gas chambers and mass graves.

https://muzeumtreblinka.eu/en/informacj ... -the-camp/

...The existence of T-II is fully explained by the understanding of Aktion Reinhardt as an economic initiative for the administration of confiscated Jewish property. It explains the administrative interest of SSPF Lublin in T-II. It explains the documentary evidence, including documentation referring to this as a work camp.

What documentation?

It also explains the archaeological evidence. It is well-known that Caroline Coll's archaelogical investigation of Treblinka uncovered no mass graves, but it did uncover a large amount of discarded personal property.

The site survey found large areas of disturbed ground;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16657363

".... several larger pits were recorded in areas suggested by witnesses as the locations of mass graves and cremation sites.
One is 26m long, 17m wide and at least four metres deep, with a ramp at the west end and a vertical edge to the east.
Another five pits of varying sizes and also at least this deep are located nearby...."

The physical evidence corroborates the witnesses. The finds of personal items corroborate the theft and sorting part of AR.

...T-II was one of many camps involved in Aktion Reinhardt. But this does not mean that it was an extermination camp or even a transit camp. There were many such camps that were composed of sorting facilities and workshops.

I take it you believe the Jewish and other witnesses who worked at such camps, since they do not speak to mass arrivals of people and gassings.

There is strong corroborating evidence TII, the camp you agree was an AR camp, was the destination for hundreds of thousands of Jews deported from ghettos, where their personal possessions were stolen and sorted, before they were gassed.

Nessie wrote: ↑Sun Sep 29, 2024 7:08 pm ...

Hello, Nessie. As it says in the rules, there will be no carryover bans here on the new forum. But given your notorious reputation, I do feel the need to give you some preemptive warnings. Please read the rules carefully and take note of the many places where your traditional posting tactics would be conflict.

Also please note that the opening of the forum has not been widely announced yet, so please, as a courtesy, hold your horses until more people get settled in. You can post, but please don't push it. Frankly, I do not want the first impression of this forum to be a flood of Nessie posts. I have requested certain courtesies from you before and you have always gone out of your way to do the opposite. If you push it, as is your tendency, I will have to restrict your account so you can't vandalize the forum during the launch.

That all said, overall the post above is a vast improvement over what you usually post since it more restrained and tries to offer some support. That is on the right track. More like that and less forcing your opinions down everyone's throat and repeating it endlessly.

Thanks,
A

I've said it before and I'll say it here again. Treblinka 2 the claimed extermination camp was a layover, transit camp for the overwhelmed Malkinia junction mainline station a few kms back up the track. Pure and simple. You will hear the historical claims that people who went to Treblinka never came out and were killed very shortly after arrival. But in the real world we know that many many many people and trains left Treblinka a few hours or even a day later and went back into the system of camps.

It's only the delicate egos of the hard exterminationists who continue this theory of it being a death camp yet when questioned and when confronted with the evidence of the opposite they get all worked up and fragile. Remember no mass graves or any evidence of mass murder have ever been shown to exist at Treblinka. Only Caroline Sturdey Colls in her tv documentary found body parts but wait for it, she found them in the regular graveyard just along the way and I believe that was a Christian burial site in any case.

By the way I have made about 3266 posts and I think the total number of posts a person has made over the two sites should be recognised and carried on for credibility and status reasons.

borjastick wrote: ↑Mon Sep 30, 2024 6:37 am I've said it before and I'll say it here again. Treblinka 2 the claimed extermination camp was a layover, transit camp for the overwhelmed Malkinia junction mainline station a few kms back up the track. Pure and simple. You will hear the historical claims that people who went to Treblinka never came out and were killed very shortly after arrival. But in the real world we know that many many many people and trains left Treblinka a few hours or even a day later and went back into the sytem of camps.

Eric Hunt collated reports of transports back out of TII here;

https://studylib.net/doc/7233192/trebli ... ist-edited

It only amounts to an occasional transport, it totals only a few thousand people and all the transports went to labour camps west or south of TII. None were for resettlement in the east.

It's only the delicate egos of the hard exterminationists who continue this theory of it being a death camp yet when questioned and when confronted with the evidence of the opposite they get all worked up and fragile.

What "evidence of the opposite"? There is no witness evidence, someone who speaks to a process other than gassings. No archaeological evidence is presented that proves ground where witness state mass graves were dug is in fact undisturbed. No documents are produced which record mass transports of hundreds of thousands of people from TII to places of resettlement in the east.

Remember no mass graves or any evidence of mass murder have ever been shown to exist at Treblinka. Only Caroline Sturdey Colls in her tv documentary found body parts but wait for it, she found them in the regular graveyard just along the way and I believe that was a Christian burial site in any case...

The Polish 1945 site examination, physical evidence from grave robbing, evidence uncovered in the mid 1960s when the memorial was constructed and the latter day Staffordshire University lead site examinations, all found large areas of disturbed ground that contained cremated human remains. In 2011, Caroline Sturdy-Colls and her team found bone fragments on the surface of the ground at TII, during walk over surveys. She reported that more would appear after it had rained, which is indicative of there being a large quantity below ground. Summary here;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16657363

The early Polish survey was unable to define specific graves, due to their lack of survey equipment and the extent of the cover-up when the camp was demolished in 1943. The GPR and electrical resistance surveys conducted in 2011 found large pits in the areas of the camp where witnesses stated mass graves had been dug. That is despite the huge concrete memorial plinth that covers much of the site, poured to prevent grave robbing. Full details here;

https://etheses.bham.ac.uk/id/eprint/35 ... s12PhD.pdf

Appendix 4.2, starting on page 462, explains how the survey was conducted and lists the finds. It is proven beyond all reasonable doubt, that the Nazis did a lot of digging of pits at TII, the only other camps where such a volume of digging took place, are, not coincidentally, the AR camps at Sobibor and Belzec and at the Chelmno camp forest site.

Laughable when people like Nessie love us all to hear and believe the clear and unambiguous statements and words of those jews who say things to support the 6m dead theory, but who then hate us hearing the words of those jews who say the opposite of things they like. Spielberg interviewed many jews who said they arrived at Treblinka and then left Treblinka on trains full of people, some several hundred per train load.

Plus we know that Malkinia Junction station just up that little old train track from Treblinka was an exit route for trains removing them jews from Europe and going into the hinterlands of Russia for a new and hopefully happy and productive life, that is until they could go to Palestine to steal the land of the Palestinians. A pursuit I might add that they have been doing ever since...

borjastick wrote: ↑Mon Sep 30, 2024 12:36 pm Laughable when people like Nessie love us all to hear and believe the clear and unambiguous statements and words of those jews who say things to support the 6m dead theory, but who then hate us hearing the words of those jews who say the opposite of things they like. Spielberg interviewed many jews who said they arrived at Treblinka and then left Treblinka on trains full of people, some several hundred per train load.

Witnesses on the transports arriving at TII, speaking about worker selections, is not the opposite of anything. That worker selections took place at TII is not widely known about. It was a process that is famously associated with A-B.

https://holocaustcentrenorth.org.uk/glossary/selection/

I have acknowledged the evidence selections happened at TII and linked to it. The same was true about those selected to work at A-B. Many remained to work at one of the various sub-camps, in particular Monwitz. Others left, as they did from TII, but that was also to labour camps. Like TII there is no evidence of mass transports to the east, into formerly Soviet territory, for resettlement.

Will you acknowledge the evidence Eric Hunt provided, that it was only a few thousand selected at TII, and that they all went to labour camps within the General Government and not to be resettled in the east?

Plus we know that Malkinia Junction station just up that little old train track from Treblinka was an exit route for trains removing them jews from Europe and going into the hinterlands of Russia for a new and hopefully happy and productive life, that is until they could go to Palestine to steal the land of the Palestinians. A pursuit I might add that they have been doing ever since...

Can you provide evidence from a witness, or document, of a transport from Malkinia that went to Russia?
Could you also provide the evidence you claimed you have, that proves TII was the opposite of a death camp?

A classic example of Nessie up to his tricks. Twisting what I said, weasel words and as slippery as an eel. Glad to see his life in the past 7 months hasn't changed him one jot. Gotta love the chap really.

Borjas, it seems like what you're missing is German documents like the Korherr report and Censuses taken in 1943 show a massive drop in Jewish population, from above 2 million to a few hundred thousand. This coincided with the mass liquidation of ghettos everywhere in Poland principally in 1942, lining up completely with the Reinhard timeline and Himmler's "resettlement" of all GG Jews order. So the explanation, they all were sent to labor camps isn't convincing. If those documents can be trusted, they were either killed, or moved out of Poland. But where?

Not all that knowledgeable about this one because I haven’t researched these camps very deeply. But the Holocaust Encyclopedia says these are transit camps. Yet Prudent Regret seems to imply these are property sorting centers…? Is there a consensus on this? Is Prudent Regret on to something new?

Diver Down wrote: ↑Tue Oct 01, 2024 12:16 am Not all that knowledgeable about this one because I haven’t researched these camps very deeply. But the Holocaust Encyclopedia says these are transit camps. Yet Prudent Regret seems to imply these are property sorting centers…? Is there a consensus on this? Is Prudent Regret on to something new?

Of the "hard revisionists" (those who believe there was no systematic mass killing program) most take the Korherr report at face value. Korherr reports speaks of 1.5 million Jews being "transported into the Russian East". The numbers match up with the figures from the Hoefle Telegram, which was a report on Action Reinhard.

If you're new to this subject, I would say wrapping your head around these two documents would be one of the best things you could do.

http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org ... rherr.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%B6fle_telegram

PR believes the Korherr report is a lie, essentially. I believe it is a lie as well, that the 1.5 million weren't transported to Russia, they were killed. This is corroborated in document form by a previous version of the Korherr report that said 1.5 million were given "special treatment", and also Himmler's quote here

“I hold this report, at best, as material for later times, to
be sure quite good for camouflage purposes. At the
moment, it may neither be published or circulated."

Maybe PR thinks Himmler was trying to hide things from Hitler. Maybe he thinks Korherr report and all these other documents were fabricated.

But as far as I know he doesn't believe in a mass resettlement of Polish Jews in Russia. It is a new theory, in my mind born out of the deep problem with the mass resettlement theory, that the evidence for this mass resettlement is scant bordering on non-existent.

The link to the "Skeptic" Forum thread is pretty indicative of the experience over there. Thin arguments buried under mounds of bluster and rudeness.

I can't claim to have studied this specific topic very deeply, but I'll offer a few select comments.

PrudentRegret wrote: ↑Sun Sep 29, 2024 4:27 pm ... mainstream historian Joseph Poprzeczny

Judging from one of the references StatMech linked, it seems there are additional mainstream historians who have taken this stance.

The well-known hypothesis of Robert L. Koehl, Uwe Dietrich Adam, Wolfgang Benz, the Institut fur Zeitgeschichte Munchen, et al that Einsatz or Aktion Reinhardt was named after State Secretary of Finance Fritz Reinhardt is highly questionable.

If there are multiple mainstream historians arguing for the Fritz thesis, it can't be as cut and dry as Sergey claims. Sergey says:

It was named after Heydrich, period.

Period! End of discussion! But where was the proof? In support he linked to a post of his at Axis history where his main argument is over the spelling of the name which even he admits is "not conclusive." The thread went for 68 (!) pages. I didn't read the whole thing of course but you'd think that if they had some slam dunk argument they've have made it on page ONE and called it a day.

I just checked NMT Vol 5 (Green Series) and this is what it says on page 254.

The extermination camps in the vicinity of Lublin, such as Treblinka and Majdanek, gave rise to special problems because of the magnitude of their operations. These camps were, until the latter part of 1943, under the jurisdiction of one Odilo Globocnik, the Higher SS and Police Leader, Lublin. In order to coordinate the undertaking, a special s"taff "G" was created within the frame work of the WVHA. The head of this staff was Globocnik while the administrative and accounting personnel was supplied by the WVHA. It was the task of special staff "G" to seize and account for all property in the Government General of occupied Poland derived from the extermination and enslavement of Jews. This ghoulish program was called "Action Reinhardt" presumably in honor of Reinhard Heydrich who was assassinated in the summer of 1942.

The prosecutor McHaney does connect AR with Heydrich here, but he says "presumably," i.e., it's an assumption.

If we think about the possibility of people getting the eponym confused, since Heydrich was quite well-known, particularly after his death, it seems very believable that people might assume it was named after Heydrich even if it wasn't originally. But the reverse seems less likely, i.e., people wrongly assuming it was named after Fritz.

NMT Vol 5 (the Pohl trial) discusses AR a fair bit and it is described repeatedly as being economic in nature which is why the WVHA was involved. The same volume (pgs 372-382) includes some interesting documents about efforts of the WVHA to REDUCE deaths in the concentration camps. Which makes sense given that the WVHA's interest was in making use of any and all potential sources of labor.

Archie wrote: ↑Tue Oct 01, 2024 6:46 am NMT Vol 5 (the Pohl trial) discusses AR a fair bit and it is described repeatedly as being economic in nature which is why the WVHA was involved.

Yes, the NMT Vol 5 concludes that the meaning of "Operation Reinhardt" is what I am suggesting it actually was, in contrast with both Revisionists and the mainstream:

The purpose of the action [Reinhardt] was to gather into the Reich all the Jewish manpower and wealth which could be reached.

The Pohl Trial includes witness testimony attesting to the fact this was named after State Secretary Reinhardt. The discussion surrounding the "Reinhardt Fund" also lends credence to this interpretation. Nobody called it the "Reinhard Fund", it was understood as funds made disposable by State Secretary Reinhardt.

I am saying the Pohl Trial reached the correct conclusion regarding the meaning of "Operation Reinhardt". And this has strong implications for the economic purpose of Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka. And Treblinka in particular. Sobibor was a broader nexus of camps, and of course Pohl and Himmler explicitly identified that there was a transit camp at Sobibor. But the only document which refers to the functionality of what we call T-II calls it "Arbeitslager Treblinka":



I am suggesting that the primary purpose of T-II was a workcamp as identified by Eberl here. The work would have pertained to Operation Reinhardt- acquiring, sorting, delousing, and transporting confiscated property throughout the course of deportations and ghetto liquidations. This is the only functionality of that camp which is proven in every way: documentary, testimonial, and archaeological. This purpose would also fit in with the interpretation of Operation Reinhardt I have proposed, which is the same interpretation reached by the Nuremberg Military Tribunal.

The Mainstream latched onto the "Operation Reinhard" mythos because they have no other policy framework to point to. But "Operation Reinhardt" was a GG-wide economic task delegated to Globocnik by Himmler and overseen by the WVHA and Pohl himself.

bombsaway wrote: ↑Mon Sep 30, 2024 8:54 pm Borjas, it seems like what you're missing is German documents like the Korherr report and Censuses taken in 1943 show a massive drop in Jewish population, from above 2 million to a few hundred thousand.

Bombsaway, Jews who were deported into Auschwitz were legally regarded as "deported" even though they were physically still present in the Reich. The Revisionist thesis that Jews were more widely dispersed across many work camps in East Poland and beyond would follow a similar logic. Jews "deported" from the Ghetto to, say, Majdanek, would still count as deported according to the census and deportation numbers. So the number of Jews "deported" according to Korherr or the Hoefle telegram tells us nothing about how many Jews set foot in the exact facility we call T-II and which Irmfried Eberl calls the "Work Camp Treblinka."

The only evidence that hundreds of thousands of Jews arrived at T-II is witness testimony. Which is a very weak body of evidence that is not corroborated by documents. The witnesses themselves seem thoroughly confused as to exactly what the "Treblinka Extermination Camp" was supposed to be, as indicated by the huge variation in the maps of "Treblinka". T-II became "the" extermination camp due to the material culture there found from Operation Reinhardt.

But, similar to Majdanek, a bunch of clothes and shoes being at a place is not evidence that a million people went to a place.

One other point I went to make, which became a big bone of contention in that Skeptic thread.

The mainstream says, and Revisionists seem to concede, that "Operation Reinhardt" denoted the deportation of the Jews from General Government (GG), and Himmler dedicated this GG-wide task to Globocnik. But Globocnik was only responsible for deportations in his own district of Lublin. Deportations in Warsaw were handled by the SSPF of that district, and Globocnik's office was even sidelined.

Likewise, deportations in Galicia were handled by the Police in that district but not Globocnik. THe Katzmann report of 30 June 1943 notes:

“Simultaneous with the resettlement operations, the seizure of Jewish property was carried out. Extraordinary assets were sequestered and placed at the disposal of the ‘Reinhard’ special staff. Besides the seized furniture and large amounts of textiles, etc. the following items were acquired and handed over to the ‘Reinhard’ special staff: […]”

Then a very specific and detailed description of the goods looted until 30 June 1943 follows, which ends with this sentence:

“During the fur operation carried out in December 1941, 35 freight cars of furs could be delivered.”

Therefore among the spoils of “Aktion Reinhardt” we find not only the Jewish goods looted from the Ghettos but also those seized even before “Aktion Reinhard” began.

So here, "Operation Reinhard" did not refer to the deportation of the Jews, which was handled by the SSPF Galicia and not Globocnik, but it did refer to the transfer of confiscated assets to Globocnik's special staff.

How did the SSPF in Galicia, Katzmann, hand over these dozens of cargo wagons of clothes, furs, and other items to Einsatz Reinhardt? The simplest explanation is that this property was loaded in cargo wagons and simply appended to the convoys to Belzec, those convoys which were arranged by Katzmann.

Belzec was an Einsatz Reinhardt camp and an outpost of the SS Clothing Works (SS- Bekleidungswerke) . Transporting this property in the convoys to Belzec would constitute Katzmann 'handing over' this property to Einsatz Reinhardt. Belzec had facilities and a labor force dedicated to sorting and storing this sort of property. Transports and deliveries from Belzec to the central Lublin Airfield camp were arranged by the SS-Sonderkommando.

There were also necessary pre-processing steps that were mandated by August Frank's WVHA decree: removing the Jewish Star from clothing, searching for hidden valuables, removing identifying information, etc. This task was delegated to the secret Pabianice camp in the Warthegau because these pre-processing steps were considered sensitive and confidential. We know that Belzec was also responsible for conducting these pre-processing steps for property it processed, steps which also would have been necessary for property salvaged from the liquidated ghettos. Here's a picture of this same operation being done in the Pabianice camp:



Finally, an important task in this entire initiative was the destruction of useless property. It is highly unlikely that ER wanted every single object transported from Katzmann's liquidated Ghettos to go straight to the Lublin repository. It is far more likely that this property mentioned by Katzmann would first be sorted, and useless articles destroyed, outside the Lublin camp itself. That would be another function of this property being funneled through Belzec.

We have real transport documents proving the transportation of sorted property from Sobibor and Treblinka.

Thus, Operation Reinhardt was an economic operation named after State Secretary Reinhardt and delegated to Globocnik in the General Government. Globocnik was not delegated the deportation of the Jews across all of GG, he was delegated the administration of confiscated Jewish property throughout the course of resettlement and liquidation- specifically clothing, jewelry, currency, mobile property.

The property sorting aspect of this operation became associated with extermination by witnesses and propagandists and investigators, which is precisely what happened at Majdanek.

PrudentRegret wrote: ↑Tue Oct 01, 2024 4:27 pm
Bombsaway, Jews who were deported into Auschwitz were legally regarded as "deported" even though they were physically still present in the Reich. The Revisionist thesis that Jews were more widely dispersed across many work camps in East Poland and beyond would follow a similar logic. Jews "deported" from the Ghetto to, say, Majdanek, would still count as deported according to the census and deportation numbers. So the number of Jews "deported" according to Korherr or the Hoefle telegram tells us nothing about how many Jews set foot in the exact facility we call T-II and which Irmfried Eberl calls the "Work Camp Treblinka."

The only evidence that hundreds of thousands of Jews arrived at T-II is witness testimony. Which is a very weak body of evidence that is not corroborated by documents. The witnesses themselves seem thoroughly confused as to exactly what the "Treblinka Extermination Camp" was supposed to be, as indicated by the huge variation in the maps of "Treblinka". T-II became "the" extermination camp due to the material culture there found from Operation Reinhardt.

But, similar to Majdanek, a bunch of clothes and shoes being at a place is not evidence that a million people went to a place.

What's your explanation of the Korherr report stating these Jews left Poland? It's by far the most authoritative document on the whereabouts of the Jews (and literally a report on the "final solution") and it says they're not in Poland anymore.

As for documentary evidence of them getting to the camps, this is a nice article https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-his ... -treblinka

Beginning with Lublin, the Jews in the General Government are now being evacuated eastward. The procedure is a pretty barbaric one and not to be described here more definitely. Not much will remain of the Jews. On the whole it can be said that about 60 per cent of them will have to be liquidated whereas only about 40 per cent can be used for forced labor.
The former Gauleiter of Vienna, who is to carry this measure through, is doing it with considerable circumspection and according to a method that does not attract too much attention. A judgment is being visited upon the Jews that, while barbaric, is fully deserved by them.

The Gauleiter is Globocnik, who managed Reinhardt

More Globocnik, this from Brack who was responsible for the T4 euthanasia program, not anything to do with property

Viktor Brack
SS-Oberführer Berlin, IV 8, Voss-Strasse 4, 23 June 1942
[Initial] HH Top Secret To the Reich Leader SS and
Chief of the German Police
Heinrich Himmler,
Berlin SW 11, Prinz Albrecht Str. 8
Dear Reich Leader,

On the instructions of Reich Leader [Reichsleiter] Bouhler I placed some of my men - already some time ago - at the disposal of Brigadeführer Globocnik to execute his special mission. On his renewed request I have now transferred additional personnel. On this occasion Brigadeführer Globocnik stated his opinion that the whole Jewish action should be completed as quickly as possible so that one would not get caught in the middle of it one day if some difficulties should make a stoppage of the action necessary. You, yourself, Reich Leader, have already expressed your view, that work should progress quickly for reasons of camouflage alone. Both points which in principle arrive at the same result are more than justified as far as my own experience goes;

Among 10 millions of Jews in Europe there are, I figure, at least 2-3 millions of men and women who are fit enough to work. Considering the extraordinary difficulties the labour problem presents us with, I hold the view that those 3 millions should be specially selected and preserved. [...]21

July 18, 1942
concerning the obligation of [name of person]......... as a person with special duties in the execution of tasks in the evacuation of Jews within the framework of "Einsatz Reinhard," [Operation Reinhard] under the SS Police Leader (SS- und Polizeiführer) in the District of Lublin.

......... [Name] declares:

I have been thoroughly informed and instructed by SS Hauptsturmführer Höfle, as Commander of the main division of "Einsatz Reinhard" of the SS and Police Leader in the District of Lublin:

1. that I may not under any circumstances pass on any form of information, verbally or in writing, on the progress, procedure or incidents in the evacuation of Jews to any person outside the circle of the "Einsatz Reinhard" staff;

2. that the process of the evacuation of Jews is a subject that comes under "Secret Reich Document," in accordance with censorship regulation Verschl. V. a;

3. concerning the special regulations made by the SS and Police Leader in the District of Lublin in this case, with explicit reference to the fact that these regulations are "Orders concerning Duties," and/or "Orders and Prohibitions" in accordance with Para. 92b of R.St.G.B.;

4. that there is an absolute prohibition on photography in the camps of "Einsatz Reinhard";

5. concerning Para. 88 through 93 of R.St.G.B., of the formulation of April 24, 1934, and the Regulation on Bribery and Revealing of Secrets on the part of Persons who are not in Official Employ, of May 3, 1917, and February 12, 1920;

6. concerning the paragraphs of R.St.G.B. 139 (Duty to Lay Information) and 353c (Breach of the Official Secrets Act).

I am familiar with the above Regulations and Laws and am aware of the responsibilities imposed upon me by the task with which I have been entrusted. I promise to observe them to the best of my knowledge and conscience. I am aware that the obligation to maintain secrecy continues even after I have left the Service."33

Secret
Dear Party Comrade Wolff!

With reference to our phone conversation on 16.7.1942 I hereby transcribe the following report of our Gerneral Direction of Eastern Railways (Gedob) in Cracow for your information:

"Since 22.7. a train with 5 000 Jews goes daily from Warsaw via Malkinia to Treblinka. Furthermore there is a train with 5 000 Jews going from Przemysl to Belzec twice a week. Gedob is constantly in touch with the security service in Cracow, who agrees that the transports from Warsaw via Lublin to Sobibor (near Lublin) rest as long as the conversion works on this line make transports impossible (until October 1942)" The trains are agreed with the commander of the Security Police in the General Government. The Head of SS and Police for the Lublin district, SS-Brigadeführer Globocnik, has been informed.

Heil Hitler!
Your truly
signed Ganzenmüller36

A glimpse of their fates can be gleaned from a posterior document, the Stroop Report of 1943. It is relevant insofar as its references to "T-II" (Treblinka death camp) tell us that Jews were sent there to be "destroyed," i.e. killed.

24 May 1943
Of the overall total of 56,065 captured Jews, about 7,000 have been destroyed in the course of the large-scale action in the former Jewish living quarter. 6,929 Jews were destroyed by transport to T. II, so that overall, 13,929 Jews were destroyed. It is estimated that, in addition to the number of 56,065, 5 - 6,000 Jews were destroyed by explosions and fire.37

Work Report
12 April 1943
Subject: Escorting the Jewish Transports
On the basis of a telephoned command from SS Haupsturmführer Danker, the train left Skopje on March 23, 1943, at 12:00, escorted by platoon No. 1, which comprised thirty men and was commanded by Police Sergeant Buchner. The train arrived at 23:00. On March 29, at 06:00, the loading of 2,404 Jews onto freight cars commenced at the former tobacco sheds. Loading was completed at 12:00, and at 12:30 the train departed. The train passed through Albanian territory. The final destination, Treblinka (the camp), was reached on April 5, 1943, at 07:00, via Czestochowa, Piotrkow, Warsaw. The train was unloaded that same day between the hours 09:00 and 11:00. Incidents: Five Jews died en route. On the night of March 31 - an elderly man, aged eighty-five; on April 3 - an elderly woman, aged ninety-four and a six-month-old child. On April 4 an elderly woman aged ninety-nine died.

Transport Roster: received 2,404
less 5
total delivered at Treblinka
2,399

[signed] Karl, Military Police Lieutenant and Company Commander.

An ancillary document intercepted by the British decoding service at Bletchley Park, the so-called Höfle memorandum, corroborates the increased death tolls.

13/15. OLQ de OMQ 1005 83 234 250
State Secret!

To the Senior Commander of the Security Police [and the Security Service], for the attention of SS Obersturmbannfuhrer HEIM, CRACOW.

Subject: fortnightly report Einsatz REINHART.

Reference: radio telegram therefrom.

recorded arrivals until December 31, 42,

L [Lublin] 12,761,
B [Belzec] 0,
S [Sobibor] 515,
T [Treblinka] 10 335 [,]
together 23 611

sum total…[as per] December 31, 42,

L 24 733,
B 434 508,
S 101 370,
T 71 355, read: 713 555]
together 1 274 166

SS and Police Leader Lublin, HOFLE, Sturmbannführer45

In reply, Wolff wrote Ganzenmüller on 13 August 1942: "I should like to thank you personally and on behalf of the Reichsfuhrer very much indeed for your memorandum of 28 July 1942. I was particularly gratified to learn from your communication that for the past two weeks a train containing 5,000 members of the chosen people is travelling to Treblinka every day and [as a result] we are thus now in the position to carry out this population transfer at an accelerated pace." Quoted in Klee, p. 233. Available online at: http://www.deathcamps.org/reinhard/pic/ ... eller3.jpg; http://www.deathcamps.org/reinhard/pic/ ... eller4.jpg

Moreover, the Oberfeldkommandant of the Lwow ghetto made it clear in spring of 1942 that Jews were being transported westward from Galicia to the Lublin district and not the other way around.

Within the Jewish population of Lemberg a noticeable unrest has spread in regard to a deportation action that has begun, through which some 30,000 elderly and other unemployed Jews shall be seized and allegedly transferred to a territory near Lublin. To what extent this evacuation can be equated with a decimation remains to be seen.41

A final document, though it gives no exact indications of numbers, is illustrative when it comes to giving an idea of just how many Jews were being killed. It is the remark of the Wehrmacht commander of Ostrow recorded in the first war diary of the General Quartermaster of the Military Commander in the Generalgouvernement on 24 October 1942.

It reads: "OK Ostrow reports that the Jews in Treblinka are not sufficiently buried and therefore an unbearable smell of corpses befouls the air."51

Maybe you think they were talking about another camp called Treblinka?