This thread is a 'change my mind' format.
Nazi Homicidal Gas Vans never existed, change my mind.
Homicidal Gas Vans
Homicidal Gas Vans
were to guess why no t4 personnel were chosen to perform gassing that had experience with gassing, it would be because THERE WERE NONE.
Online
Re: Homicidal Gas Vans
Read about sk lange https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... erman.html
Then read about how lange and his team were stationed at chelmno https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... man10.html
Read all the gas van documents and testimonies. Read Santiago Alvarez s critique of the documents and the unanswered hc blog rebuttals which only strengthen claims about the documents authenticity https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... s-why.html
Then read about the mass transports of unfit Jews to Chelmno, and the Gresier correspondence, which unequivocally speaks of the killing of 100,000 Jews in the district https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... erman.html
Read the reports of the grave site near chelmno, focusing on the crushed bones (an aspect you were skeptical about at Belzec) https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... elmno.html
Watch this video of a guy walking around chelmno picking up bone fragments (you can do the same if you go there probably) the graves are unsupervised
Then, since you believe that most of this evidence is fabricated, all the explicit documents and witnesses, think about what must have gone into successfully pulling off this conspiracy. The backstory about Lange with all that corroborating witness testimony. Then the actual activities at this camp. The gas van documents, fabricated so impeccably they confused revisionists*
Eg here https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... urner.html
Think about the witnesses, how none of them backtracked on any of their statements. How none of them contradicted what happened at the camp, despite this meaning they were impugning themselves criminally. Then think about testimonies like this https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... t-lie.html which means Germans not directly involved were impugning their country as well.
Finally think about how the other side views you. You view Holocaust affirmers as being ridiculous, you are viewed the same way. The major difference is that your belief comes from notions of incredulity about the described procedures, whereas for affirmers it comes from understanding of the vast corpus of positive evidence and the just as striking total absence of any evidence from the revisionist side about what really happened at Chelmno and afterwards.
Then read about how lange and his team were stationed at chelmno https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... man10.html
Read all the gas van documents and testimonies. Read Santiago Alvarez s critique of the documents and the unanswered hc blog rebuttals which only strengthen claims about the documents authenticity https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... s-why.html
Then read about the mass transports of unfit Jews to Chelmno, and the Gresier correspondence, which unequivocally speaks of the killing of 100,000 Jews in the district https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... erman.html
Read the reports of the grave site near chelmno, focusing on the crushed bones (an aspect you were skeptical about at Belzec) https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... elmno.html
Watch this video of a guy walking around chelmno picking up bone fragments (you can do the same if you go there probably) the graves are unsupervised
Then, since you believe that most of this evidence is fabricated, all the explicit documents and witnesses, think about what must have gone into successfully pulling off this conspiracy. The backstory about Lange with all that corroborating witness testimony. Then the actual activities at this camp. The gas van documents, fabricated so impeccably they confused revisionists*
Eg here https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... urner.html
Think about the large amount of crushed bones in the graves. Did the archeologists find the crushed bones, were they perhaps deposited at a later date? Were the crushed bones also purposefully scattered around the sites of the mass graves, which are exactly as witnesses describe them?
The fancy runic insignia of the SS - which Alvarez mocks as "toying around with his typewriter to compose some artistic rendering of the SS rune" (TGV, p. 92) - is characteristic for the letters he sent to the SS leaders Meyszner, Wolff and Himmler. He even used them in copies of Himmler's letters for his own files. Wolff remarked towards West-German investigators that this specially added SS-Runen "indicates his will to emphasise his belonging to the SS" (interrogation Wolff of 7 February 1962, BArch B 162 / 5025, p. 37; Wolff also confirmed the authenticity of the letter at this occasion).
Think about the witnesses, how none of them backtracked on any of their statements. How none of them contradicted what happened at the camp, despite this meaning they were impugning themselves criminally. Then think about testimonies like this https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... t-lie.html which means Germans not directly involved were impugning their country as well.
Finally think about how the other side views you. You view Holocaust affirmers as being ridiculous, you are viewed the same way. The major difference is that your belief comes from notions of incredulity about the described procedures, whereas for affirmers it comes from understanding of the vast corpus of positive evidence and the just as striking total absence of any evidence from the revisionist side about what really happened at Chelmno and afterwards.
Re: Homicidal Gas Vans
Excellent post Sir, well put together and with much relevant information.
Of course, it will take me some time to go over all of this, and to respond. There is quite a bit here.
Rest assured as a comically dressed unironic neo-nazi nazi apologist, I will be back like a 12' o'clock shadow.
For the record, yes, I am very aware of the caricature many will undoubtedly make of me. Of course, how you perceive me, and what I am are radically different, but, that's a completely different topic that is unnecessary for our discourse.
Of course, it will take me some time to go over all of this, and to respond. There is quite a bit here.
Rest assured as a comically dressed unironic neo-nazi nazi apologist, I will be back like a 12' o'clock shadow.
For the record, yes, I am very aware of the caricature many will undoubtedly make of me. Of course, how you perceive me, and what I am are radically different, but, that's a completely different topic that is unnecessary for our discourse.
were to guess why no t4 personnel were chosen to perform gassing that had experience with gassing, it would be because THERE WERE NONE.
Re: Homicidal Gas Vans
The camp had a crematory, which would have taken at least a decade to cremate the alleged number of dead, while at the same time suggesting open-air cremations, which challenges the need to have installed a crematory in the first place, those Germans 
. The problem of wood remains an insurmountable problem and in Belzec the bones that were not destroyed in the first cremation were thrown back into the fire in the next one, if there are remains of bones, which we cannot know from the time or the cause of death, it is evidence that they were not very interested in erasing any evidence and they had time.
As for the gas vans, there is no definitive image of this and the ones that exist look more like drawings than anything real. It has already been demonstrated how difficult it is to exterminate people with diesel, it would be easier to believe that they added carbon monoxide to them but that is not what is said.
Special treatment as a code word for extermination is the evidence they have,
. The problem of wood remains an insurmountable problem and in Belzec the bones that were not destroyed in the first cremation were thrown back into the fire in the next one, if there are remains of bones, which we cannot know from the time or the cause of death, it is evidence that they were not very interested in erasing any evidence and they had time.As for the gas vans, there is no definitive image of this and the ones that exist look more like drawings than anything real. It has already been demonstrated how difficult it is to exterminate people with diesel, it would be easier to believe that they added carbon monoxide to them but that is not what is said.
Special treatment as a code word for extermination is the evidence they have,
Re: Homicidal Gas Vans
To steelman the orthodoxy a bit, the apparent evidence at chelmno for pyres fits with the results of the kola study and is congruent with pyres of the type used to sanitize the remains at Dresden and other places before interment.
People obviously died there.
People obviously died there.
Last edited by Stubble on Sat Mar 01, 2025 6:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
were to guess why no t4 personnel were chosen to perform gassing that had experience with gassing, it would be because THERE WERE NONE.
Re: Homicidal Gas Vans
The clash in perspectives between revisionist and anti-revisionists is especially evident on the gas van topic.
There was a gas van document, PS-501, which was presented early on at the IMT. This document if taken at face value does indeed seem to be incriminating. This is one of the few fairly explicit gassing documents that they can claim. Nothing like this was presented for the Auschwitz gas chambers. Does this constitute good proof that there were gas vans? Anti-revisionists think it does. And they say we are being unreasonable in not only rejecting their eyewitnesses but now even documents. "You are just rejecting everything!" they cry.
I think these early comments from Paul Rassinier give some insight into this disagreement (this is from his Eichmann book).
-No gas van has ever been found
-No designs for gas vans have ever been found (only a few documents referring to them)
-No photographs have ever been found
And on top of this, we have the issue of the scale of killing. As Rassinier notes, we aren't talking about 300 victims. They are claiming the victims ran into the six figures. At that grand scale, all sorts of questions and doubts arise. How were all these vans manufactured or converted? Who designed them? What sort of capacity did they have? Etc.
For me, one of the major problems (aside from the ones already mentioned) is the issue of the earliest gas van stories. This is similar to the problem with the stationary gas chambers where the earliest versions have steam chambers, electric floors, trap doors, and other silliness which strongly suggests the stories are not based in fact. With the gas vans, we also find a major variations in the stories.
This is the account given in the earliest Chelmno gassing story, the so-called Szlamek report (author also sometimes identified as Jakub Grojnowski or Shloyme Ber Winer). The report was recorded in the Warsaw ghetto. It is early because versions of it appeared in print in 1943. Here is one bit from it.
There are some mentions of bottled CO used in gas vans in the euthanasia program, but this is said to have happened much earlier. The 1985 version of Hilberg (Vol I, 333) says for example: "Vehicles equipped with bottled, chemically pure carbon monoxide had already been used in 1940 for gassing East Prussian mental patients in Soldau, a camp located in the former Polish corridor." But he makes no mention of this for Chelmno.
There is a newer book by academic Patrick Montague on Chelmno that was first published in 2011. This is the state-of-the-art from the mainstream. Prior to this Chelmno got only scant treatment in the general histories. From the promotional blurb for it:
I don't buy it. I would need to re-read but as I recall Szlamek describes two vans and he describes them as being the same. He knows nothing about an exhaust-based gas van. And there's no indication at all of the vans having utterly different gassing mechanisms. My working hypothesis right now (open to revision) is that the exhaust-based gas vans were popularized by the Soviets around 1943 and this story was applied to Chelmno around 1945. And only recently was there an attempt to harmonize this with the earliest version of the story.
There was a gas van document, PS-501, which was presented early on at the IMT. This document if taken at face value does indeed seem to be incriminating. This is one of the few fairly explicit gassing documents that they can claim. Nothing like this was presented for the Auschwitz gas chambers. Does this constitute good proof that there were gas vans? Anti-revisionists think it does. And they say we are being unreasonable in not only rejecting their eyewitnesses but now even documents. "You are just rejecting everything!" they cry.
I think these early comments from Paul Rassinier give some insight into this disagreement (this is from his Eichmann book).
Rassinier's remarks here are very early (the 1960s) and are by no means conclusive, but he is touching on important general points that are still relevant. I think what Rassinier is getting at here is the issue of robustness of evidence. The evidence for something needs to be commensurate with what is alleged. He does not dismiss the PS-501 document. He does not try to "explain" or "debunk" it. Rather he is simply wary of being asked to accept that 100,000 Jews were gas-vanned based largely on a piece of paper. Ok, we have piece of paper. However,I will say nothing of the celebrated "death buses" whose existence and utilisation are attested by Document P.S. 501 [99] (Volume XXVI, p. 1-2-10), which is an account by a sublieutenant from Marioupol with the date May 15th, 1942. The whole text will be found in the fourth part of this work, taken from David Rousset, who reproduced it in Le Pitre ne rit pas (The Clown does not laugh) (Paris, 1948).
These "buses", which the indictment refers to as "trucks", were supposedly equipped for asphyxiation by using the motor exhaust. 100,000 Jews are said to have been gassed in this way. Even at the rate of 50, or even 100 per "bus" or "truck", take your choice, one can see what a task it was. This idea, which poses the problem of whether there was time to asphyxiate 100,000 people in this way, or whether a considerable number of these "vehicles" - of which not one has been recovered - existed, in itself reveals the imbecility of the contention that this was part of a vast plan, perfected by the authorities of the Third Reich, to exterminate the Jews. If in truth vehicles of this kind did exist, they can only have been produced by private initiative and only the smallest number could have been produced. The cases reported are considered to have happened in the region of Chelmno, under the authority of one Globochnik. When one knows Globochnik (cp. 5th part), one can obviously not swear that he would not be an initiator of such a scheme. But extermination in numbers of 100,000 is manifestly just as false. If it were a few hundred, it would be possible to accept the figure; but 100,000, no, absolutely not.
-No gas van has ever been found
-No designs for gas vans have ever been found (only a few documents referring to them)
-No photographs have ever been found
And on top of this, we have the issue of the scale of killing. As Rassinier notes, we aren't talking about 300 victims. They are claiming the victims ran into the six figures. At that grand scale, all sorts of questions and doubts arise. How were all these vans manufactured or converted? Who designed them? What sort of capacity did they have? Etc.
For me, one of the major problems (aside from the ones already mentioned) is the issue of the earliest gas van stories. This is similar to the problem with the stationary gas chambers where the earliest versions have steam chambers, electric floors, trap doors, and other silliness which strongly suggests the stories are not based in fact. With the gas vans, we also find a major variations in the stories.
This is the account given in the earliest Chelmno gassing story, the so-called Szlamek report (author also sometimes identified as Jakub Grojnowski or Shloyme Ber Winer). The report was recorded in the Warsaw ghetto. It is early because versions of it appeared in print in 1943. Here is one bit from it.
This story says they used gas that was stored in some sort of gas apparatus, i.e., they used some other gas, not the engine exhaust. In 1943, the Soviets at the Krasnodar and Kharkov trials said the gas vans used diesel exhaust and that seems to be the version of the story that won out. By 1945, the story was engine exhaust. From what I have seen, the post-war testimonies all say they used exhaust (or they are too vague to tell). And for decades after the war, standard secondary sources likewise said the Chelmno vans used exhaust.The truck was constructed in a special way and looked roughly like a regular grey van, hermetically sealed with two doors at the back. On the inside, the van was covered with sheet metal. There was no places to sit in the van. The floor was lined with wooden slats, like in a bathroom, and covered with a doormat. Between the interior of the van and the place where the driver was sitting were two little windows through which, using an electric lamp, he checked whether the victims were dead. Underneath the wooden slats were two 15-centimeters pipes coming from the driver's cabin. At the end, they had openings through which the gas could enter. The gas apparatus was located inside the driver's cabin, where only the driver sat.
There are some mentions of bottled CO used in gas vans in the euthanasia program, but this is said to have happened much earlier. The 1985 version of Hilberg (Vol I, 333) says for example: "Vehicles equipped with bottled, chemically pure carbon monoxide had already been used in 1940 for gassing East Prussian mental patients in Soldau, a camp located in the former Polish corridor." But he makes no mention of this for Chelmno.
There is a newer book by academic Patrick Montague on Chelmno that was first published in 2011. This is the state-of-the-art from the mainstream. Prior to this Chelmno got only scant treatment in the general histories. From the promotional blurb for it:
What is curious about the Montague book (and I should say I checked this one thing but I have not read the whole thing yet) is that he seems to have noticed the problem with the Szlamek report and he does make some attempt to square the circle. Montague's theory is as follows (pg. 204): "The original gas van was not the only van used in the camp. RSHA sent two of its smaller vans to Chelmno in early January at the latest, presumably the Opel-Blitz vans. " That is, he thinks there was one van that used bottled CO or something (which would be more consistent with the Szlamek report) but that two exhaust-based gas vans arrived around January 1942 and this earlier design was then seemingly forgotten.As the first extermination camp established by the Nazi regime and the prototype of the single-purpose death camps of Treblinka, Sobibor and Belzec, the Chelmno death camp stands as a crucial but largely unexplored element of the Holocaust. This book is the first comprehensive work in any language to detail all aspects of the camp's history, organisation and operations and to remedy the dearth of information in the Holocaust literature about Chelmno, which served as a template for the Nazis' 'Final Solution'.
I don't buy it. I would need to re-read but as I recall Szlamek describes two vans and he describes them as being the same. He knows nothing about an exhaust-based gas van. And there's no indication at all of the vans having utterly different gassing mechanisms. My working hypothesis right now (open to revision) is that the exhaust-based gas vans were popularized by the Soviets around 1943 and this story was applied to Chelmno around 1945. And only recently was there an attempt to harmonize this with the earliest version of the story.
Re: Homicidal Gas Vans
The gas van was invented in the Soviet Union in 1936 by Isay Berg, the head of the administrative and economic department of the NKVD of Moscow Oblast, who suffocated batches of prisoners with engine fumes in a camouflaged bread van while on the drive out to the mass graves at Butovo.
It stands to reason that there would be propaganda about 'nazi gas vans' in the east. Even before barbarossa or the blitzkrieg against Poland there was propaganda about nazi gas vans in Germany. These were disguised not as bread vans, but as coffee vans.
Now, these documents referring to homicidal gas vans, they are fewer than I have digits on one hand. To think that the Oh So Social intelligence branch couldn't have facilitated 'finding' one document among a trove of others is naive.
That said, the bones at chelmno, are at chelmno. This reminds me of the gas van in Berlin to drive people to the gas chamber. So they could be gassed before they got gassed to get gassed. What is the point? It is a bit of an exercise in masturbation.
Now, I get that you are going to tell me that it was for the mental health of the ruthless cold blooded murderous nazis, but, I feel the need to remind you that the narrative talks out of both sides of its mouth. At the same time and in the same breath this is said, there is a guy named Frankenstein that shot people in the neck and pushed them into a 50 foot flaming pit by the thousands. You have nazis ripping babies in half, lining children up to see how many they could shoot with 1 bullet, beating men to death with clubs and sticks to avoid waking the neighbors.
Now you have a van to take people from a concentration camp, murder them, then bring them back to the camp? Color me confused.
There is still much more for me to cover, and this is just my first bit of a rebuttal. Personally, I think the people who died at chelmno died from something other than carbon monoxide poisoning, and I don't think the fumigation and shower vans were used to murder the internees.
Of course, I'm still looking for the equipment allocation for chelmno, so I can't prove the 'gas vans' were not homicidal. That said, I don't believe in nazi homicidal gas vans.
You can call this pig headed, you can say I'm ignoring a document, you can say all kinds of things. It still doesn't make any sense.
Were nazis evil cold blooded murdering devils, bent on global conquest and the genocide of 'lesser races'? Or were they fragile timid creatures that couldn't deal with hurting anyone? The narrative can't be both, the ideas are mutually exclusive.
It stands to reason that there would be propaganda about 'nazi gas vans' in the east. Even before barbarossa or the blitzkrieg against Poland there was propaganda about nazi gas vans in Germany. These were disguised not as bread vans, but as coffee vans.
Now, these documents referring to homicidal gas vans, they are fewer than I have digits on one hand. To think that the Oh So Social intelligence branch couldn't have facilitated 'finding' one document among a trove of others is naive.
That said, the bones at chelmno, are at chelmno. This reminds me of the gas van in Berlin to drive people to the gas chamber. So they could be gassed before they got gassed to get gassed. What is the point? It is a bit of an exercise in masturbation.
Now, I get that you are going to tell me that it was for the mental health of the ruthless cold blooded murderous nazis, but, I feel the need to remind you that the narrative talks out of both sides of its mouth. At the same time and in the same breath this is said, there is a guy named Frankenstein that shot people in the neck and pushed them into a 50 foot flaming pit by the thousands. You have nazis ripping babies in half, lining children up to see how many they could shoot with 1 bullet, beating men to death with clubs and sticks to avoid waking the neighbors.
Now you have a van to take people from a concentration camp, murder them, then bring them back to the camp? Color me confused.
There is still much more for me to cover, and this is just my first bit of a rebuttal. Personally, I think the people who died at chelmno died from something other than carbon monoxide poisoning, and I don't think the fumigation and shower vans were used to murder the internees.
Of course, I'm still looking for the equipment allocation for chelmno, so I can't prove the 'gas vans' were not homicidal. That said, I don't believe in nazi homicidal gas vans.
You can call this pig headed, you can say I'm ignoring a document, you can say all kinds of things. It still doesn't make any sense.
Were nazis evil cold blooded murdering devils, bent on global conquest and the genocide of 'lesser races'? Or were they fragile timid creatures that couldn't deal with hurting anyone? The narrative can't be both, the ideas are mutually exclusive.
Re: Homicidal Gas Vans
Also, whoever was investigating that site and left it like that long enough for the anti erosion fabric to rot like that should be put to pillory. The remains at that site should be reinterred with dignity and respect, and any future investigation should not border on desecration in such a way. That is absolutely unconscionable.
were to guess why no t4 personnel were chosen to perform gassing that had experience with gassing, it would be because THERE WERE NONE.
Online
I see no reason to spend much more time on this when the arguments are thoroughly addressed in the Chelmno section in HC blog.
One concern that I will address is that no gas vans were found. According to orthodoxy, about 20-30 were built in total. Is it a strong argument for revisionists that none were found? It firstly doesn't make sense for Nazis to have kept the vans function intact once they were done, modifying for normal function (transport) would have been trivial. I think this criticism of "lack of evidence" is rich coming from people who don't blink at the thought of millions of people disappearing without leaving any sort of paper trail behind, or witness testimony. The conspiracy required to cover up something like this is probably 10,000 x greater magnitude.
Rather I think it might be productive, if revisionist are unwilling to properly digest the source material, for us to discuss the grave sites. I think Archie will find that they are large enough to accommodate the estimate of 150-200k bodies there.
Stubble will find explicit mention of "crushed bones" meaning there wasn't just incineration going on there, the bodies were broken and smashed https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... elmno.html
The final question, the one revisionists will never answer (just watch as an experiment) and the reason their theories have been rejected by historians, and will continue to be rejected:
Can you provide a comprehensive answer about what happened at Chelmno?
Re: Homicidal Gas Vans
A lot of the issues you guys have is due to insufficient familiarity with the source material. The graves are not located at the camp but in a forest a few miles away. Archie too says things like
But if he looked at the first link I provided he would have seen that the T4 killings with bottled gas in vans were conducted by Lange, who guess what, was the commandant of Chelmno upon its foundation.Archie wrote: ↑Sat Mar 01, 2025 3:00 am There are some mentions of bottled CO used in gas vans in the euthanasia program, but this is said to have happened much earlier. The 1985 version of Hilberg (Vol I, 333) says for example: "Vehicles equipped with bottled, chemically pure carbon monoxide had already been used in 1940 for gassing East Prussian mental patients in Soldau, a camp located in the former Polish corridor." But he makes no mention of this for Chelmno.
I see no reason to spend much more time on this when the arguments are thoroughly addressed in the Chelmno section in HC blog.
One concern that I will address is that no gas vans were found. According to orthodoxy, about 20-30 were built in total. Is it a strong argument for revisionists that none were found? It firstly doesn't make sense for Nazis to have kept the vans function intact once they were done, modifying for normal function (transport) would have been trivial. I think this criticism of "lack of evidence" is rich coming from people who don't blink at the thought of millions of people disappearing without leaving any sort of paper trail behind, or witness testimony. The conspiracy required to cover up something like this is probably 10,000 x greater magnitude.
Rather I think it might be productive, if revisionist are unwilling to properly digest the source material, for us to discuss the grave sites. I think Archie will find that they are large enough to accommodate the estimate of 150-200k bodies there.
Stubble will find explicit mention of "crushed bones" meaning there wasn't just incineration going on there, the bodies were broken and smashed https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... elmno.html
The final question, the one revisionists will never answer (just watch as an experiment) and the reason their theories have been rejected by historians, and will continue to be rejected:
Can you provide a comprehensive answer about what happened at Chelmno?
Re: Homicidal Gas Vans
Start a thread on this interment site. I assume this is the same for riga/Rumbula then?bombsaway wrote: ↑Sat Mar 01, 2025 5:02 amA lot of the issues you guys have is due to insufficient familiarity with the source material. The graves are not located at the camp but in a forest a few miles away. Archie too says things like
But if he looked at the first link I provided he would have seen that the T4 killings with bottled gas in vans were conducted by Lange, who guess what, was the commandant of Chelmno upon its foundation.Archie wrote: ↑Sat Mar 01, 2025 3:00 am There are some mentions of bottled CO used in gas vans in the euthanasia program, but this is said to have happened much earlier. The 1985 version of Hilberg (Vol I, 333) says for example: "Vehicles equipped with bottled, chemically pure carbon monoxide had already been used in 1940 for gassing East Prussian mental patients in Soldau, a camp located in the former Polish corridor." But he makes no mention of this for Chelmno.
I see no reason to spend much more time on this when the arguments are thoroughly addressed in the Chelmno section in HC blog.
One concern that I will address is that no gas vans were found. According to orthodoxy, about 20-30 were built in total. Is it a strong argument for revisionists that none were found? It firstly doesn't make sense for Nazis to have kept the vans function intact once they were done, modifying for normal function (transport) would have been trivial. I think this criticism of "lack of evidence" is rich coming from people who don't blink at the thought of millions of people disappearing without leaving any sort of paper trail behind, or witness testimony. The conspiracy required to cover up something like this is probably 10,000 x greater magnitude.
Rather I think it might be productive, if revisionist are unwilling to properly digest the source material, for us to discuss the grave sites. I think Archie will find that they are large enough to accommodate the estimate of 150-200k bodies there.
Stubble will explicit mention of "crushed bones" meaning there wasn't just incineration going on there, the bodies were broken and smashed https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... elmno.html
The final question, the one revisionists will never answer (just watch as an experiment) and the reason their theories have been rejected by historians, and will continue to be rejected:
Can you provide a comprehensive answer about what happened at Chelmno?
So this would be a central burial location for at least 1 concentration camp, and a series of ghettos and some antiterrorism operations then, correct?
Given the video you posted said chelmno, I had assumed those graves were located, at chelmno.
Also, no, I have not yet compiled a report on chelmno. It's on this list. It isn't at the top yet though, there is other stuff ahead of it on the pile.
Online
The major ghetto in this area was Lodz. There were no ghettos near Chelmno
https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Che%C5% ... FQAw%3D%3D
I'm sure you can come up with some speculations about Jews being interred in this place from far off destinations, but again, read the source material. The documents are explicit that many tens of thousands of "sick" non employable Jews were evacuated 200 km north-west (not even east) to the train station nearest to Chelmno . There the paper trail disappears, forever.
Re: Homicidal Gas Vans
It's evidence of use of homicidal gas vans but you can start a thread if you want. I'm not going to be engaging much here so this is research you guys can mostly do on your own if you're interested.Stubble wrote: ↑Sat Mar 01, 2025 5:08 am
Start a thread on this internment site. I assume this is the same for riga/Rumbula then?
So this would be a central burial location for at least 1 concentration camp, and a series of ghettos and some antiterrorism operations then, correct?
Given the video you posted said chelmno, I had assumed those graves were located, at chelmno.
The major ghetto in this area was Lodz. There were no ghettos near Chelmno
https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Che%C5% ... FQAw%3D%3D
I'm sure you can come up with some speculations about Jews being interred in this place from far off destinations, but again, read the source material. The documents are explicit that many tens of thousands of "sick" non employable Jews were evacuated 200 km north-west (not even east) to the train station nearest to Chelmno . There the paper trail disappears, forever.
Re: Homicidal Gas Vans
Believe it or not, I'm trying to resolve an image here, not speculate. There is a different but distinctly similar monument in Latvia. Not being that familiar with the precise location of chelmno, and knowing you said a few miles I made a poor assumption. We all forget about Lithuania from time to time, right? (I ain't from around there)bombsaway wrote: ↑Sat Mar 01, 2025 5:18 amIt's evidence of use of homicidal gas vans but you can start a thread if you want. I'm not going to be engaging much here so this is research you guys can mostly do on your own if you're interested.Stubble wrote: ↑Sat Mar 01, 2025 5:08 am
Start a thread on this internment site. I assume this is the same for riga/Rumbula then?
So this would be a central burial location for at least 1 concentration camp, and a series of ghettos and some antiterrorism operations then, correct?
Given the video you posted said chelmno, I had assumed those graves were located, at chelmno.
The major ghetto in this area was Lodz. There were no ghettos near Chelmno
https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Che%C5% ... FQAw%3D%3D
I'm sure you can come up with some speculations about Jews being interred in this place from far off destinations, but again, read the source material. The documents are explicit that many tens of thousands of "sick" non employable Jews were evacuated 200 km north-west (not even east) to the train station nearest to Chelmno . There the paper trail disappears, forever.
After checking the geography and cracking this open a little bit, no, these are different locations. I can respect your frustration.
You seem dejected Bombs, and I hate to hear it.
Chin up. Everything is going to be alright.
So far as the remains go, this site does seem to be consistent with what Kola found at Belzec, right? Bone fragments, sand, likely soft tissue and wax further down. It looks like pyres. Almost 'textbook' one might say.
Personally I think chelmno merits it's own thread, and I'd hate to see it keyholed in the 'gas van' thread.
I'm sure at some point, I will get around to penning a thread for it if no one else does, but that's no reason for anyone to think they shouldn't or couldn't start the thread.
Your first post in this thread is really good man. I mean that. I don't like your sources, and I vet them like I vet MSNBC or Fox News, which I personally find burdensome, but, that's not a strike against you man. I just don't trust them. Hell, I barely trust my dog to be honest, I think he stole one of my beers last week, but, he refuses to tell me.
Going back to gas vans, man, I just don't buy it. I never have. When I'm hearing about the lampshades and shrunken heads being trotted out as 'totally real guys, honest', I'm probably not in a conducive mindset to just roll over and say 'yea, gas vans were totally real, here's why that's a good thing'.
Re: Homicidal Gas Vans
I don't think that really addresses my comment (which was not a reply to yours).bombsaway wrote: ↑Sat Mar 01, 2025 5:02 am Archie too says things like
But if he looked at the first link I provided he would have seen that the T4 killings with bottled gas in vans were conducted by Lange, who guess what, was the commandant of Chelmno upon its foundation.Archie wrote: ↑Sat Mar 01, 2025 3:00 am There are some mentions of bottled CO used in gas vans in the euthanasia program, but this is said to have happened much earlier. The 1985 version of Hilberg (Vol I, 333) says for example: "Vehicles equipped with bottled, chemically pure carbon monoxide had already been used in 1940 for gassing East Prussian mental patients in Soldau, a camp located in the former Polish corridor." But he makes no mention of this for Chelmno.
There was a sentence right before which gives the context for what you quoted.
And then I gave Hilberg as an example. And keep in mind that's the massive three-volume Hilberg. Or take another example.And for decades after the war, standard secondary sources likewise said the Chelmno vans used exhaust.
Nazi Mass Murder: A Documentary History of the Use of Poison Gas, edited by Kogon, Langbein, and Rückerl
This was the authoritative orthodox reference on gas chambers when it was first published in 1983. I checked it and for Chelmno it describes exhaust-based gassings. The point is that bottled CO gassings at Chelmno (not earlier euthanasia claims) is a fairly obscure claim that from what I can tell was not advanced until Montague. If you are aware of an earlier reference from the literature to the contrary, why don't you just share it instead of doing your usual passive-aggressive thing?
Online
Re: Homicidal Gas Vans
I don't care about the literature. I care about primary sources and am capable of interpreting them without the need for "experts" to tell me what they mean. This is a whole other aspect that I think is causing you a lot of undue confusion. If you take the testimonies and the the documents at their word, SK Lange was conducting mass killings of mental patients with gas vans hooked up to bottled CO. Then SK Lange took up residence at Chelmno where vans were used with the modification of engine exhaust being used. There being a transition period here between both kinds of vans is not something that strikes me as improbable.
Re: Homicidal Gas Vans
This is a perfect example of why Holocaust Inc is so insidious. We've just recently had an entire other thread where you and your friends were making the exact opposite case for your arguments. Watch this:bombsaway wrote: ↑Sat Mar 01, 2025 5:47 pm I don't care about the literature. I care about primary sources and am capable of interpreting them without the need for "experts" to tell me what they mean. This is a whole other aspect that I think is causing you a lot of undue confusion. If you take the testimonies and the the documents at their word, SK Lange was conducting mass killings of mental patients with gas vans hooked up to bottled CO. Then SK Lange took up residence at Chelmno where vans were used with the modification of engine exhaust being used. There being a transition period here between both kinds of vans is not something that strikes me as improbable.
"I don't care about the literature. I care about primary sources and am capable of interpreting them without the need for "experts" to tell me what they mean. If you take the testimonies and the the documents at their word, John Henry Witton was producing jew soap at his facility in Danzig"
Sound familiar? However, in that situation you care very deeply about the literature and the opinions of experts because the primary sources are bunk, and to complete my entire point: The holocaust itself is constructed via narrative and indeed not by primary source at all.
That is, the narrative is established due to the ebb and flow of prevailing opinions, and "evidence" is retroactively sought and applied to artificially support it.