The CODOH Revisionist Forum

“During the first week of the ‘deportation Aktion’ Warsaw was flooded with greetings from the deported Jews. The greetings arrived from Białystok, Brest-Litovsk, Kosov, Malkinia, Pinsk, Smolensk.”

Greeting cards from Malkinia. These cards weren't written in "T-II" that's for sure.

Listen PR, I'll give you a reason why the workers might not have testified about shipments of fuel once I see you honestly reckon with the fact theres zero direct evidence (this would include witness, documentary, physical evidence) for the resettlement of roughly 2 million people, according to Mattogno et al, or the additional hundreds of thousands of Jews who were native to the USSR. I don't know if you're capable of doing this, so this conversation is sadly drawing to an end. I find this line of argumentation on your part to be comical given the fact that there weren't even any rumors of mass resettlement with the exception of Kruk's diary, in which he states the rumor to be false.

You can begin by discussing whether this lack of positive evidence is a major or minor problem for revisionism, or more broadly for any historical hypothesis.

Kruk's Diary also repeatedly identified Malkinia as the rumored killing site.

The earliest trials also pertained to a Malkinia camp:

“On 12 July 1948 the ‘Frankfurter Neue Presse’ carried a short news notice stating that a court in the Darmstadt internment camp had added Hirtreiter to the group of chief perpetrators and sentenced him to ten years in a labor camp, having convicted him because ‘as an SS guard in the former Malkinia concentration camp near Warsaw he had, during the gassing of at least 4,000 to 5,000 Jews, forced victims to undress and confiscated their valuables

If he confiscated the valuables of the Jewish deportees he must have been in "T-II" right? Nope:

The public prosecutor’s office of Frankfurt am Main opened up an investigation into crimes committed in the Małkinia camp, but it soon turned out that it was the Treblinka camp.2532

On Hirtreiter there exists a document dated 13 July 1946 which informs us:2533

“In 1942 Subject was drafted into the Waffen SS and was sent to Lublin,
where he received his SS uniform and the rank of an SS Unterschaführer.
After basic training Subject was transferred to an SS Sonderkommando at
Balkinia [sic], Poland.

PrudentRegret wrote: ↑Wed Oct 09, 2024 1:48 am Kruk's Diary also repeatedly identified Malkinia as the rumored killing site.

From Kues:

In his previous entries Kruk repeatedly recounts claims that the Warsaw Jews were killed near the Polish town of Malkinia. On 5 September 1942 Kruk wrote that “The Jews are taken toward Malkinia, and there, there… they are poisoned with gas”.[138] On 30 September 1942 he noted that the mass killings “are supposed to have taken place somewhere near Malkinia. People are forced to leave their clothes in the trains. From there, they are driven to underground trenches, and they don’t come back. How it is done is still a secret.”[139] By 27 October the rumors had become more specific: “The Jews from there [Warsaw] were taken, as has been mentioned, to Bełz (near Lwów) and to a forest around Malkinia. There the Jews are put into special underground entrances, poisoned, and burned.”[140] On 30 October Kruk again wrote of the rumors, this time giving a source, issue no. 6 of the Polish underground newspaper Niepodległość. Kruk summarizes: “Some were taken on trains to Treblinka near Malkinia, many were conveyed as far as Bełz (in the Lwów district), where they were poisoned en masse with gas or killed with electrical current in the former soap factory there.”[141]

Kruk says "near Malkinia" and specifically a "forest around Malkinia". Then he identifies Treblinka as the site. Anyway, he's not talking about the place that you refer to. Nice try, but no cigar.

bombsaway wrote: ↑Wed Oct 09, 2024 2:03 am Kruk says "near Malkinia" and specifically a "forest around Malkinia". Then he identifies Treblinka as the site. Anyway, he's not talking about the place that you refer to. Nice try, but no cigar.

He repeatedly identifies Malkinia, i.e. April 1943:

Jews of Warsaw are being taken to be killed in Malkinia

The first "Treblinka" defendant Hirtreiter confessed to being stationed at Malkinia, and the trial first focused on a Malkinia Camp until it settled on "Treblinka."

So it's rich you feel so certain about matters when the earliest witness reports are thoroughly confused about "Malkinia" vs "Treblinka."

You still reject the likelihood that the clandestine reports about the "Extermination Camp Treblinka" before "T-II" even opened referred also to the Malkinia camp which has apparently caused so much confusion even among defendants who were accused of working there.

PrudentRegret wrote: ↑Wed Oct 09, 2024 2:10 am

bombsaway wrote: ↑Wed Oct 09, 2024 2:03 am Kruk says "near Malkinia" and specifically a "forest around Malkinia". Then he identifies Treblinka as the site. Anyway, he's not talking about the place that you refer to. Nice try, but no cigar.

He repeatedly identifies Malkinia, i.e. April 1943:

Jews of Warsaw are being taken to be killed in Malkinia

The first "Treblinka" defendant Hirtreiter confessed to being stationed at Malkinia, and the trial first focused on a Malkinia Camp until it settled on "Treblinka."

So it's rich you feel so certain about matters when the earliest witness reports are thoroughly confused about "Malkinia" vs "Treblinka."

You still reject the likelihood that the clandestine reports about the "Extermination Camp Treblinka" before "T-II" even opened referred also to the Malkinia camp which has apparently caused so much confusion even among defendants who were accused of working there.

Kruk said a forest around Malkinia. This invalidates your proposed location.

earliest witness reports are thoroughly confused about "Malkinia" vs "Treblinka."

If you want me to believe this, you should find all the early witness reports about Treblinka, and lay them out so we can assess how "thoroughly" confused they are. Hirtreiter's confession was 1946, which doesn't seem early btw, but if you are making this contention, show your work.

bombsaway wrote: ↑Wed Oct 09, 2024 2:24 am Hirtreiter in his confession didn't actually mention Malkinia as the camp where people were killed but said that's where the SK were. This doesn't really help your case because you think the SK were stationed at Treblinka, so much so that that's what the camp was referred to in documents.

Wrong, it was claimed to be the camp where people were killed:

Receiving the Jews after their arrival at Balkinia and separating them
into ‘Arbeitskommandos.’
b) Before Jews were to be sent to the gas-chambers Subject had them undress completely in special ‘dressing rooms’ and than led them through
barracks into the gas chambers

In the original document there's a handwritten correction of Balkinia to *Malkinia*. The claim is that they were killed in the Malkinia camp.

The VERY FIRST trial for the Treblinka defendant, according to you, mistook Malkinia Camp for the Treblinka extermination camp 7km away and you are trying to tell me there was no confusion here? Delusional.

Combine that with Kruk's diary. And the earliest map that places it on the Warsaw-Bialystok line. And the anachronistic reports of the "Treblinka Extermination Camp" before "T-II" was even open but the Malkinia Camp was open. It all points to camps being mixed up in various accounts.

Also, I think the SK were stationed in Malkinia due to the photographs of the Kurt Franz album which contains a lot of photographs from Malkinia. Why they were called "SK Treblinka" is anyone's guess. But the name of their unit would have been the reason for the name of their camps, not wherever their quarters happened to be.

PrudentRegret wrote: ↑Wed Oct 09, 2024 2:30 am

In the original document there's a handwritten correction of Balkinia to *Malkinia*. The claim is that they were killed in the Malkinia camp.

Yeah I caught this mistake, but wasn't able to edit in time

Also, I think the SK were stationed in Malkinia due to the photographs of the Kurt Franz album which contains a lot of photographs from Malkinia. Why they were called "SK Treblinka" is anyone's guess.

Indeed.

Here's an assignment for you PR that I think will be instructive

You stated: the earliest witness reports are thoroughly confused about "Malkinia" vs "Treblinka."

https://www.zapisyterroru.pl/dlibra/res ... r=_all&p=0

Here's a bunch of testimonies which I think are from 1945 so all are "earlier" than the statement you point to from 1946. You can also search for Malkinia, eg to check testimonies which speak of extermination in Malkinia but don't mention Treblinka. How many of these are confused about Malkinia vs Trebklinka?

Literally the very first Treblinka perpetrator on trial confessed to being at Malkinia. The first one. The Treblinka Sorting camp would have more witnesses because it housed a large workforce for an extended period of time. It was a workcamp unlike the transit camp, not surprised at all it's the subject of more witness testimony which contributes to the confusion.

I do recall though there is testimony of Treblinka workers who commuted to Malkinia station for work related to the loading ramp. That would fit with the Malkinia == Transit & Confiscate, Treblinka Work Camp == Sort for Operation Reinhardt.

But you can't be so daft as to deny there was confusion given literally the very first Treblinka perpetrator described the gassings as happening IN Malkinia which is not a mistake he would have made.

He was also charged specifically with conducting confiscations, so his confession would also suggest the confiscations happened in Malkinia and then the property was sent to the Judenlager of the Treblinka Work Camp to be deloused, sorted, etc. as part of Operation Reinhardt. The secret Jewish camp Pabianice had the same function and arrangement.

Witnesses mistook trains of clothing as being exterminated or about-to-be exterminated Jews. The interpretation of clothing as gassed jews by witnesses is a motif in Holocaust literature. Even now you go to a museum and they will show you a pile of shoes as evidence for mass murder. So witnesses misinterpreting trainloads of personal property to be actual jews getting murdered would be par for the course of the exact same substitute of interpretation that has happened everywhere, foremost at Majdanek.

PrudentRegret wrote: ↑Wed Oct 09, 2024 5:52 am Literally the very first Treblinka perpetrator on trial confessed to being at Malkinia. The first one. The Treblinka Sorting camp would have more witnesses because it housed a large workforce for an extended period of time. It was a workcamp unlike the transit camp, not surprised at all it's the subject of more witness testimony which contributes to the confusion.

I do recall though there is testimony of Treblinka workers who commuted to Malkinia station for work related to the loading ramp. That would fit with the Malkinia == Transit & Confiscate, Treblinka Work Camp == Sort for Operation Reinhardt.

But you can't be so daft as to deny there was confusion given literally the very first Treblinka perpetrator described the gassings as happening IN Malkinia which is not a mistake he would have made.

He was also charged specifically with conducting confiscations, so his confession would also suggest the confiscations happened in Malkinia and then the property was sent to the Judenlager of the Treblinka Work Camp to be deloused, sorted, etc. as part of Operation Reinhardt. The secret Jewish camp Pabianice had the same function and arrangement.

Witnesses mistook trains of clothing as being exterminated or about-to-be exterminated Jews. The interpretation of clothing as gassed jews by witnesses is a motif in Holocaust literature. Even now you go to a museum and they will show you a pile of shoes as evidence for mass murder. So witnesses misinterpreting trainloads of personal property to be actual jews getting murdered would be par for the course of the exact same substitute of interpretation that has happened everywhere, foremast at Majdanek.

What's the significance, if with 150 other earlier witnesses or whatever there was no confusion?

First of all, none of the witnesses actually describe what the operation would have looked like if it had actually happened. So there are 0 witnesses who attest to a realistic interpretation of the operation. You know this.

So really the number of reliable witness accounts is 0.

I have suggested a systematic misunderstanding of the economic use action Operation Reinhardt as an extermination operation. This misunderstanding percolated through a huge number of witnesses in all the controversial camps, with Majdanek being case-in-point for how this happened: it's proven precedent for what I am saying. I am just saying what happened in Majdanek also happened in the Treblinka Work Camp for Jews. The delousing chambers under the administration of the SS Fur and Clothing Works to carry out Operation Reinhardt became interpreted as mass extermination facilities with many witnesses and courts, including Judge L himself, attesting to that fact.

Even historians today say "Operation Reinhardt was the codename for the extermination of the Jews." It really does mostly come back to the misinterpretation and dishonest interpretation of what this policy actually was. Witnesses see piles of clothing and shoes and tell tall tales of gassed jews, influenced by chaotic wartime conditions, rumors, and no small amount of outright lying. It happened at Majdanek, it happened at the other camps too.

But really the fact the debut case, the perpetrator put the operation in Malkinia and was charged with conducting confiscations puts to bed your fantasy that nobody was confused.

You also continue to sidestep the anachronistic reporting that suggests transit activity at Malkinia was mistaken for an extermination operation.

PrudentRegret wrote: ↑Tue Oct 08, 2024 8:09 pm I said CONTEMPORARY REPORTING. There was CONTEMPORARY REPORTING of an extermination camp at Treblinka before "T-II" even opened....

Those reports were before it had started to receive mass transports, but after it had started construction, during which there were reports huge pits were being dug and Jews were being shot there. One report links TII to Belzec, which had started to receive mass transports. The Poles realised that TII was another camp like Belzec.

... there was small reporting of the largest cremation operation in human history years AFTER the operation, but what is missing are any actual reports of this happening while it was allegedly happening. None of the testimony you linked mentioned it, that's not to say nobody claimed to witness cremations years after the fact.

And the testimony that's there is no even close to the magnitude of the operation. It wouldn't be a "smell of smoke" it would be a clearly visible 24/7 forest fire that nobody reported on while it was happening and nobody describes in detail in the testimony you provided either.

You are saying that T-II was under such scrutiny that it was pegged as an extermination camp while it was under construction, but there are 0 reports of the largest cremation operation in history while it was happening, and all of the witness testimony you linked which you found so convincing does not even breath a word about would have been the most conspicuous thing about the operation.

I like the way you call the local reports of months of burning and the stench coming from the camp as "small reporting". You do that to try and fit the evidence that is contrary to desired beliefs, into what you want to believe.

Gathering evidence in 1942-3, was a dangerous process for local Poles. They could hardly, safely, produce published witness statements at that time. It is not surprising that the bulk of their testimony is from 1945 onwards.

PrudentRegret wrote: ↑Wed Oct 09, 2024 6:10 am First of all, none of the witnesses actually describe what the operation would have looked like if it had actually happened. So there are 0 witnesses who attest to a realistic interpretation of the operation. You know this.

There are dozens of witnesses who describe mass arrivals of people, the theft and sorting of their property and gassings. That universal agreement comes from local Poles, German and Ukrainian Nazis who worked inside the camp, and surviving Jewish prisoners. That such a disparate group, who would not normally cooperate, who spoke different languages, all agree, is strong corroborating evidence.

So really the number of reliable witness accounts is 0.

That is the figure for the number of witnesses you have, to evidence your theory the camp was only used to sort property.

I have suggested a systematic misunderstanding of the economic use action Operation Reinhardt as an extermination operation. This misunderstanding percolated through a huge number of witnesses in all the controversial camps, with Majdanek being case-in-point for how this happened: it's proven precedent for what I am saying. I am just saying what happened in Majdanek also happened in the Treblinka Work Camp for Jews. The delousing chambers under the administration of the SS Fur and Clothing Works to carry out Operation Reinhardt became interpreted as mass extermination facilities with many witnesses and courts, including Judge L himself, attesting to that fact.

Your suggestion, is not backed by any evidence from within TII.

Even historians today say "Operation Reinhardt was the codename for the extermination of the Jews." It really does mostly come back to the misinterpretation and dishonest interpretation of what this policy actually was. Witnesses see piles of clothing and shoes and tell tall tales of gassed jews, influenced by chaotic wartime conditions, rumors, and no small amount of outright lying. It happened at Majdanek, it happened at the other camps too.

But really the fact the debut case, the perpetrator put the operation in Malkinia and was charged with conducting confiscations puts to bed your fantasy that nobody was confused.

You also continue to sidestep the anachronistic reporting that suggests transit activity at Malkinia was mistaken for an extermination operation.

You make great play of some minimal confusion about Malkinia, to deflect from your total lack of evidence, compared to the dozens of witnesses, physical, archaeological, forensic and circumstantial evidence that TII was an AR camp where hundreds of thousands were gassed and their property stolen.

You cannot answer questions I have previously put to you, about what happened to the people, once all their possessions had been stolen from them.