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Re: Chronology of the Holocaust
Posted: Tue Feb 18, 2025 11:29 pm
by Stubble
TlsMS93 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 18, 2025 11:13 pm
Outside the ravine, the Jews had to hand over their valuables, strip completely naked and then go to the upper edge of the ravine in groups of 10.
This is what the Holocaust Encyclopedia says about Babi Yar
Groups of 10 would mean 3,377 groups. Even allowing only 5 minutes per group, this would still take 281 hours, or 24 days of working 12 hours a day.
Seriously, all these allegations of atrocities without evidence or coherence in my view were from partisans spreading rumors among the population and the Jews among the partisans targeting their side, distorting and dramatizing the event and this got back to the Allies and the Jewish organizations made good use of it for propaganda purposes. Of course after the war they got their witnesses that the Germans let live to tell.
As for post-war trials, it is clear that they will find a way to systematize the event, but precise testimony at the time of the event is almost nothing detailed, only that so many people were killed in one place. So basing events on a trial years after the event is less accurate than the accounts at the time.
I'm even willing to grant the orthodoxy that these tales are embellishment of real events, it looks like it is an all or nothing deal though. Either I digest the ludicrous or I am a 'denier'.
I just want to know what the hell actually happened.
/shrug
Now we are on to talking about people 'being shot for refusing to go into the gas chamber'.
Why would you have to shoot someone to for not taking a shower (assuming a ruse). That's going to freak the other 9,000 people you compressed into the phone booth out and let them know something other than a warm shower is about to happen.
Re: Chronology of the Holocaust
Posted: Tue Feb 18, 2025 11:30 pm
by bombsaway
Stubble wrote: ↑Tue Feb 18, 2025 11:23 pm
Have you ever been within a mile of a pistol range?
One time I remember being in plain sight of a some people shooting guns outside and couldn't hear them until less than a mile a way, in mostly silence. What if there were an obstacle like a ridge and trees in the way? That distance might be less than 1 km.
TlsMS93 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 18, 2025 11:13 pm
Outside the ravine, the Jews had to hand over their valuables, strip completely naked and then go to the upper edge of the ravine in groups of 10.
This is what the Holocaust Encyclopedia says about Babi Yar
Groups of 10 would mean 3,377 groups. Even allowing only 5 minutes per group, this would still take 281 hours, or 24 days of working 12 hours a day.
Seriously, all these allegations of atrocities without evidence or coherence in my view were from partisans spreading rumors among the population and the Jews among the partisans targeting their side, distorting and dramatizing the event and this got back to the Allies and the Jewish organizations made good use of it for propaganda purposes. Of course after the war they got their witnesses that the Germans let live to tell.
As for post-war trials, it is clear that they will find a way to systematize the event, but precise testimony at the time of the event is almost nothing detailed, only that so many people were killed in one place.
So basing events on a trial years after the event is less accurate than the accounts at the time.
This hasn't stopped you from assuming things about an event you have immense skepticism about, which I find kind of funny.
The idea that there couldn't be multiple collection points - one outside of audible range of the shooting, another right in the vicinity of the shooting. We don't have details about it, there's no testimony that contradicts this, yet you seem to assume the Nazis couldn't have done it this way.
Re: Chronology of the Holocaust
Posted: Tue Feb 18, 2025 11:34 pm
by Stubble
Numar Patru wrote: ↑Tue Feb 18, 2025 11:01 pm
I’d recommend reading the Wiki article on the Rumbula massacre for details on how crowd control was accomplished.
I was being more general in my remark. There was
some specificity to the mile long line, but that was another event all together. It was described in a testimony further up in the thread ever briefly.
So far as that wiki goes, I trust it about as far as I could throw it.
Re: Chronology of the Holocaust
Posted: Tue Feb 18, 2025 11:40 pm
by Stubble
Bombs, I can tell you the caliber being fired from a mile or less...
I can also assure you, had I been in that line and somebody told me that was champagne and fireworks, I could have informed them of the facts...
Re: Chronology of the Holocaust
Posted: Tue Feb 18, 2025 11:45 pm
by TlsMS93
The incoherent story alone, full of internal and external contradictions, of the poster calling for the Jews of Kiev to regroup in a city that has just fallen makes me doubt the whole thing.
Seriously, 33,000 Jews on a street corner?
Re: Chronology of the Holocaust
Posted: Tue Feb 18, 2025 11:46 pm
by bombsaway
Stubble wrote: ↑Tue Feb 18, 2025 11:40 pm
Bombs, I can tell you the caliber being fired from a mile or less...
I can also assure you, had I been in that line and somebody told me that was champagne and fireworks, I could have informed them of the facts...
https://www.quora.com/How-far-away-can- ... heard-from
Mile or so in the woods , according to this source
Re: Chronology of the Holocaust
Posted: Tue Feb 18, 2025 11:47 pm
by Stubble
TlsMS93 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 18, 2025 11:45 pm
The incoherent story alone, full of internal and external contradictions, of the poster calling for the Jews of Kiev to regroup in a city that has just fallen makes me doubt the whole thing.
Seriously, 33,000 Jews on a street corner?
I'll give you this, there is a lack of physical evidence.
As we have established earlier, the purported body disposal method of the alleged aktion 1005 is less than complete.
Re: Chronology of the Holocaust
Posted: Tue Feb 18, 2025 11:49 pm
by Stubble
bombsaway wrote: ↑Tue Feb 18, 2025 11:46 pm
Stubble wrote: ↑Tue Feb 18, 2025 11:40 pm
Bombs, I can tell you the caliber being fired from a mile or less...
I can also assure you, had I been in that line and somebody told me that was champagne and fireworks, I could have informed them of the facts...
https://www.quora.com/How-far-away-can- ... heard-from
Mile or so in the woods , according to his source
So, about the distance of the line....
/shrug
Also, that says rifle, not pistol. Not a huge bone to pick here, but, a rifle? 3-5 miles....
Based off personal experience.
Re: Chronology of the Holocaust
Posted: Tue Feb 18, 2025 11:51 pm
by bombsaway
Stubble wrote: ↑Tue Feb 18, 2025 11:49 pm
bombsaway wrote: ↑Tue Feb 18, 2025 11:46 pm
Stubble wrote: ↑Tue Feb 18, 2025 11:40 pm
Bombs, I can tell you the caliber being fired from a mile or less...
I can also assure you, had I been in that line and somebody told me that was champagne and fireworks, I could have informed them of the facts...
https://www.quora.com/How-far-away-can- ... heard-from
Mile or so in the woods , according to his source
So, about the distance of the line....
/shrug
Also, that says rifle, not pistol. Not a huge bone to pick here, but, a rifle? 3-5 miles....
Based off personal experience.
All that said, if you’re talking about a typical rifle round in the woods I’d say a mile or so
I quote. Btw I'm not calling you a denier, just objecting to your contention of impossibility or near impossibility when examining these events that we lack full information about.
Re: Chronology of the Holocaust
Posted: Tue Feb 18, 2025 11:55 pm
by Stubble
bombsaway wrote: ↑Tue Feb 18, 2025 11:51 pm
Stubble wrote: ↑Tue Feb 18, 2025 11:49 pm
So, about the distance of the line....
/shrug
Also, that says rifle, not pistol. Not a huge bone to pick here, but, a rifle? 3-5 miles....
Based off personal experience.
All that said, if you’re talking about a typical rifle round in the woods I’d say a mile or so
I quote. Btw I'm not calling you a denier, just objecting to your contention of impossibility or near impossibility when examining these events that we lack full information about.
And I'm not saying it is impossible that
something happened, just asking for information that's not absolutely insane to be presented.
I agree we lack information. Buckets of it. Tons.
Re: Chronology of the Holocaust
Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2025 12:00 am
by Numar Patru
TlsMS93 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 18, 2025 11:45 pm
The incoherent story alone, full of internal and external contradictions, of the poster calling for the Jews of Kiev to regroup in a city that has just fallen makes me doubt the whole thing.
Seriously, 33,000 Jews on a street corner?
It’s a rather large plaza.
Not sure what else you’re arguing here.
Re: Chronology of the Holocaust
Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2025 12:15 am
by Stubble
Off hand, trite and mildly off topic remark;
Anybody ever seen a picture of a German homicidal gas van?
Re: Chronology of the Holocaust
Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2025 12:19 am
by Archie
Stubble wrote: ↑Wed Feb 19, 2025 12:15 am
Off hand, trite and mildly off topic remark;
Anybody ever seen a picture of a German homicidal gas van?
There are a small number of purported photos, none of which are compelling. See Klaus Schwensen's article.
https://codoh.com/library/document/the- ... d-gas-van/
Re: Chronology of the Holocaust
Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2025 12:19 am
by TlsMS93
Numar Patru wrote: ↑Wed Feb 19, 2025 12:00 am
It’s a rather large plaza.
Not sure what else you’re arguing here.
That's it? Is it big to you? Is a street corner big? Well, the order was to be there and not in the surrounding area, taking into account the call to take everything you could find.
Just as for Gerstein 40 people in a telephone booth was perfectly possible, for you 33 thousand Jews on a street corner is also
Show how big it is.
Re: Chronology of the Holocaust
Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2025 12:20 am
by Stubble
Archie wrote: ↑Wed Feb 19, 2025 12:19 am
Stubble wrote: ↑Wed Feb 19, 2025 12:15 am
Off hand, trite and mildly off topic remark;
Anybody ever seen a picture of a German homicidal gas van?
There are a small number of purported photos, none of which are compelling. See Klaus Schwensen's article.
https://codoh.com/library/document/the- ... d-gas-van/
Dude, you spoiled the punchline.
/hangs_head