The CODOH Revisionist Forum

Eye of Zyclone wrote: ↑Fri Nov 14, 2025 1:12 am

Nessie wrote: ↑Thu Nov 13, 2025 11:23 am

Eye of Zyclone wrote: ↑Thu Nov 13, 2025 9:46 am

And why did that witness, who was nothing less than "the preeminent [antirevisionist] scholar on the Holocaust," didn't bring those documents before that court in order to conclusively prove that "special" referred to gassings in the Kremas and didn't even dare to show up 3 years later, when Ernst Zündel was being tried again before that court?

You failed to answer my question.

It is not up to a witness to bring documents to a trial and lodge them as evidence, it is up to the lawyers on the prosecution or defence to do that. Was Hilberg cited as a witness for the second trial?

I had answered your question (which was based on a reversed burden of proof fallacy, as usually) with another question (which was based on the Holohoaxers' failure to prove their assertion that special treatment meant mass murder).

Raul Hilberg was not a witness per se. He was the world's best anti-revisionist expert on the Holocaust.

At the 1st Zündel trial, he claimed that special treatment meant mass murder (see the newspaper report above). The least he could do was prove his claims. That's what experts are for after all. If he could do that, he would have done it with joy (since that show trial aimed to show the general public that Holocaust deniers talk nonsense). But he couldn't. And so he did not do it.

Nessie wrote: ↑Thu Nov 13, 2025 11:23 am Was Hilberg cited as a witness for the second trial?

Yes. But I'd say that he rather ran away like an embarrassed kid very afraid to be caught again with his pants down while trying to defend an untenable lie...

Nessie wrote: ↑Fri Nov 14, 2025 7:20 am I asked you how is a trial in Canada evidence the use of the term special does not refer to gas chambers? That is not the reversal of the burden of proof. You do not want to answer, because you know the answer is that it is not. Typically for someone who does not know what they are doing, you introduce irrelevance, to try and evidence your claims, rather than contemporaneous, pertinent evidence that directly relates to the usage of the Kremas.

Nessie wrote: ↑Fri Nov 14, 2025 7:20 amHe does not get sight of the questions before the trial and the court did not order the seizure of documents as evidence. Hence, he did not have any documents. How do you not know that about trials?

Nessie wrote: ↑Thu Nov 13, 2025 11:23 am He wrote to the main prosecutor, to say he did not thinks his second appearance would do any good, he gave his reasons why, he suggested an alternative expert and as a result, he was clearly not cited as a witness for that trial. You clearly do not know much about how trials are run.

Eye of Zyclone wrote: ↑Fri Nov 14, 2025 4:59 pm

Nessie wrote: ↑Fri Nov 14, 2025 7:20 am I asked you how is a trial in Canada evidence the use of the term special does not refer to gas chambers? That is not the reversal of the burden of proof. You do not want to answer, because you know the answer is that it is not. Typically for someone who does not know what they are doing, you introduce irrelevance, to try and evidence your claims, rather than contemporaneous, pertinent evidence that directly relates to the usage of the Kremas.

Of course, that's a reversal of the burden of proof. You and Hilberg are the accusers in this matter. So the burden of proof is on you, but you never take it and never did. And never will. You just assert unproven things and claim that those who disagree with you are horrible people whose words mean nothing. You've been using the same technique non-stop since the 1940s.

Nessie wrote: ↑Fri Nov 14, 2025 7:20 amHe does not get sight of the questions before the trial and the court did not order the seizure of documents as evidence. Hence, he did not have any documents. How do you not know that about trials?

Like all Holohoaxers, he never did, neither before that court, nor in his books, nor anywhere else, from day one.

Nessie wrote: ↑Thu Nov 13, 2025 11:23 am He wrote to the main prosecutor, to say he did not thinks his second appearance would do any good, he gave his reasons why, he suggested an alternative expert and as a result, he was clearly not cited as a witness for that trial. You clearly do not know much about how trials are run.

Or in short, he evaded it in a grotesque way because he didn't want to get his ass kicked like the first time. Only too obvious...

Wetzelrad wrote: ↑Fri Nov 14, 2025 6:28 pm For accuracy, Raul Hilberg was asked to appear in the second trial, but since he refused, the judge instead allowed his testimony from the first trial to be read to the jury. This was over the objection of Doug Christie who pointed out that, were Hilberg to take the stand again, he would be at risk of a charge of perjury since the new (1985) edition of his book contradicted that testimony.

You can read a transcript of Hilberg's testimony here. He basically said that in the many documents he had searched, "the word killing [...] was not used", but instead it was always euphemisms. Also his interpretation of euphemisms was at odds with Kaltenbrunner and Korherr.

In the last forty years, this debate has advanced to many new sources Hilberg was not apprised of, but it also hasn't moved at all. I think exterminationists are afraid to make any concessions on euphemisms because it has become a foundational claim for them. Perhaps the whole thing falls apart if they start to admit that resettlees were resettled or that special treatment involved delousing.

Nessie wrote: ↑Fri Nov 14, 2025 6:48 pm Hilberg determined what terms meant, by looking for evidence of usage. If it was used in relation to an action, that involved Jews, undressing rooms, gas chambers, mass corpse cremation ovens and delousing of clothing seized, then the evidence is the term is being used to include mass murder. If it was used in relation to resettlement, but there was no evidence of resettlement, then it is not about actual resettlement.

He [Browning] was not aware that German words like “Gaswagen,” “Spezialwagen,” “Entlausungswagen” (delousing van) could have perfectly innocent meanings.
[...]
Browning claimed to have found irrefutable proof of the existence of a policy of exterminating the Jews in the Frank diary. He had discovered one incriminating sentence. He did not know that Frank had given the Tribunal an explanation of that kind of sentence, chosen beforehand from the hundreds of thousands of sentences in a personnel and administrative journal of 11,560 pages.
[...]
Finally, his own personal explanation of a “policy of the extermination of the Jews” was the same as Hilberg’s. Everything was explained by the “nod” of Adolf Hitler. In other words, the Fuhrer of the German people did not need to give any written or even spoken order for the extermination of the Jews. It was enough for him to give a “nod” at the beginning of the operation and, for the rest, a series of “signals.” And that was understood!

https://ihr.org/journal/v08p417_faurisson-html

Wetzelrad wrote: ↑Fri Nov 14, 2025 6:59 pm

Nessie wrote: ↑Fri Nov 14, 2025 6:48 pm Hilberg determined what terms meant, by looking for evidence of usage. If it was used in relation to an action, that involved Jews, undressing rooms, gas chambers, mass corpse cremation ovens and delousing of clothing seized, then the evidence is the term is being used to include mass murder. If it was used in relation to resettlement, but there was no evidence of resettlement, then it is not about actual resettlement.

Did you just make this up, or can you show where this actually occurred? In his book, Hilberg concluded that words were euphemisms because he needed them to be to support his theory. He did not take any of the steps you claim.

Hilberg's replacement at the 1988 trial, Christopher Browning, seems to have been even worse on the matter of euphemisms.

He [Browning] was not aware that German words like “Gaswagen,” “Spezialwagen,” “Entlausungswagen” (delousing van) could have perfectly innocent meanings.
[...]
Browning claimed to have found irrefutable proof of the existence of a policy of exterminating the Jews in the Frank diary. He had discovered one incriminating sentence. He did not know that Frank had given the Tribunal an explanation of that kind of sentence, chosen beforehand from the hundreds of thousands of sentences in a personnel and administrative journal of 11,560 pages.
[...]
Finally, his own personal explanation of a “policy of the extermination of the Jews” was the same as Hilberg’s. Everything was explained by the “nod” of Adolf Hitler. In other words, the Fuhrer of the German people did not need to give any written or even spoken order for the extermination of the Jews. It was enough for him to give a “nod” at the beginning of the operation and, for the rest, a series of “signals.” And that was understood!

https://ihr.org/journal/v08p417_faurisson-html

In these examples Browning's ignorance led him to false conclusions. It really does appear as if Holocaust historians approach the topic with a preconceived outcome, such that they willfully misinterpret every piece of evidence they find to fit that outcome.