Operation Reinhardt staff and the T4 connection

[bombsaway]

On the first page, we talked past each other a bit as you said 'the connection is clear' and I said 'cooks are not murderers' basically.

Almost nobody is a murderer man. Even soldiers who have killed aren't. It would be absurd and counterproductive for the Nazis to make this the criteria they were looking for in recruiting for a mass killing operation. The Taubner case you should look at, because it shows this exact principle. You just have to find people who are willing to the job and do it well, for whatever reason. Within orthodoxy most believe that ideological commitment was the defining thing, I would agree with this.

I understand that, but, you are ignoring 'the consensus' and what is written about these men as well as the other camp personnel.

These are people who, if the narrative is to be believed, beat people to death with sticks and shovels as not to wake up the neighbors.

Child murderers who bayonetted babies, ripped babies in half, or played soccer with babies.

I think this is a totally unwarranted assumption, and you haven't quoted anything to establish "the consensus". https://x.com/i/grok/share/CXZeuuEYZyAIaoK9xqBnWexk1

It's well known that a certain percentage of men have psychopathic and sadistic tendencies. These don't surface normally but if you're engaged in certain activities you're going to see it come out. Nothing about this is surprising to me, but it's also not everyone at these camps.

Even according to the victims themselves some of the guards were not monsters, an example would be Suchomel

[Stubble]

I've just been through a series of videos from both Yad Vashim and the USHMM, and all of them paint the picture of the transfer of personnel being because they were 'experienced with killing using carbon monoxide' and highlighting testimony about the staff being barbaric murderers and sadists.

You can simply pick at random, it's going to be presented that way.

[bombsaway]

I've just been through a series of videos from both Yad Vashim and the USHMM, and all of them paint the picture of the transfer of personnel being because they were 'experienced with killing using carbon monoxide' and highlighting testimony about the staff being barbaric murderers and sadists.

You can simply pick at random, it's going to be presented that way.

You haven't shown me anything. I went to the ushmm site about the connection, found nothing like that
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... Wvacmk2sSO

The overwhelming majority of German camp personnel deployed at the Operation Reinhard camps came from Operation T4 (the Euthanasia Program). Operation T4 was the Nazis’ first secret program of mass murder in which institutionalized persons with disabilities were killed. This program used pure, bottled carbon monoxide gas as a killing method. Thus, the T4 staff brought to Operation Reinhard experience with the killing process. They had direct knowledge of gassing and cremation technology. Without exception, every commandant of an Operation Reinhard killing center came to German-occupied Poland via the T4 action. Christian Wirth also came from the program. Wirth became the Inspector General for Operation Reinhard. This was a role similar to the one he had served in Operation T4.

In March 1942, T4 functionaries arrived in the General Government. “Euthanasia” personnel dispatched to Lublin for the Reinhard action assumed SS membership and wore the field grey uniforms of the Waffen-SS. They stood under Globocnik’s direct orders. Formally, however, they remained employees of the T4 organization. The T4 headquarters was located in Berlin at the address Tiergartenstrasse 4. “Euthanasia” officials there managed all personnel issues for the new Reinhard recruits, including salary, leave, and benefits.

You might be right about some media, idk. But what's the point of this anyway? Its evidence of testimonies being fabricated or what?

[Stubble]

They had direct knowledge of gassing and cremation technology. Without exception, every commandant of an Operation Reinhard killing center came to German-occupied Poland via the T4 action. 

Dude...

So far as the cast of comic book villains, pick one. I suggest the agriculture detail officer, 'Frankenstein'. Look him up.

The whole cast, with rare exception, are absolute cartoons.

So far as the reason for this misrepresentation, it is obviously, very obviously, to further vilify these people.

It is a narrative. A fable, a story.

These men were not 'chosen because of their experience with carbon monoxide gassings'.

The fellows claimed to have designed and installed the homicidal gas chambers had literally nothing to do with homicidal gassings at t4.

To make a mountain out of their 'prior experience' is to ignore the factual record.

Wirth merits his own thread, and after I put something together, I will post it, assuming no one has done so by then. In the meantime, I've got quite a lot on my plate already, and this tangentially associated subject isn't going to move those other areas of study forward in a meaningful way.

That you refuse to see the representation of this particular facet of holocaust lore as it is virtually uniformly represented, and as you alluded to before I created this thread (as it is a response to a very similar assertion) is not my cross to bear.

Pick up a book and read it. Pick it at random. As I have done. Then, you will see, I am not 'mischaracterizing' the orthodox narrative.

[bombsaway]

Pick up a book and read it. Pick it at random. As I have done. Then, you will see, I am not 'mischaracterizing' the orthodox narrative.

Let's go through the foundational Holocaust text, Hilberg's 'Destruction'

https://dokumen.pub/qdownload/the-destr ... 95579.html

If you trust me here's my own link https://www.mediafire.com/file/ykp0fzdy ... s.pdf/file

Show me where you see what you're talking about.

[bombsaway]

That you refuse to see the representation of this particular facet of holocaust lore as it is virtually uniformly represented, and as you alluded to before I created this thread (as it is a response to a very similar assertion) is not my cross to bear.

To be clear you haven't even given me anything to look at. I see that Nazis are vilified in media (it makes for a better show), sure but you're asserting serious historians are doing it, misinterpreting, or misleading on purpose in order to vilify.

Show me, if it's so rampant.

[Stubble]

With the exception of Auschwitz, every extermination center in Poland was heavily staffed by people directly implicated in Involuntary Euthanasia, often by gas. So this is the quite obvious connection that orthodoxy sees that provides continuity between T4 and these other killing operations. It's not direct evidence of mass killing in and of itself, but it's compelling circumstantial documentary evidence.

These are your words, correct? And yet, I need to link you what you have already asserted?

Are you literally just wasting my fucking time?

Here;

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/ ... z-reinhard

Read this, specifically where you quoted from, again.

Also, I'd recommend looking at Arrad's work here more that Hilberg, not that it really matters.

From your own mouth the 'prior experience' is super important, and yet, it doesn't exist. Now, if I were to guess why no t4 personnel were chosen to perform gassing that had experience with gassing, it would be because THERE WERE NONE.

[bombsaway]

With the exception of Auschwitz, every extermination center in Poland was heavily staffed by people directly implicated in Involuntary Euthanasia, often by gas. So this is the quite obvious connection that orthodoxy sees that provides continuity between T4 and these other killing operations. It's not direct evidence of mass killing in and of itself, but it's compelling circumstantial documentary evidence.

These are your words, correct? And yet, I need to link you what you have already asserted?

Are you literally just wasting my fucking time?

Here;

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/ ... z-reinhard

Read this, specifically where you quoted from, again.

Also, I'd recommend looking at Arrad's work here more that Hilberg, not that it really matters.

From your own mouth the 'prior experience' is super important, and yet, it doesn't exist. Now, if I were to guess why no t4 personnel were chosen to perform gassing that had experience with gassing, it would be because THERE WERE NONE.

I think you're getting confused with your arguments, it seems like before you were talking about Germans being vilified, wild stories. Now you're saying the T4 staff didn't have experience. Ok let's look at the first 3 commandants of the camps

TREBLINKA
Irmfried Eberl (SS-Obersturmführer) - First Commandant of Treblinka II - T4 CONNECTION: Medical director in T4 killing centers

BELZEC
Christian Wirth (SS-Hauptsturmführer) - First Commandant (December 1941 - August 1942) - T4 CONNECTION: Inspector in T4 euthanasia centers, key figure in developing gassing procedures

SOBIBOR
Franz Stangl (SS-Obersturmführer) - First Operating Commandant (April 1942 - August 1942) - T4 CONNECTION: Deputy office manager at Hartheim T4 center

Which of these didn't have relevant experience? If that's your assertion, show it. Don't just tell me, I'm not going to believe you without evidence, just like I wouldn't believe the prosecutors at Nuremberg.

[Stubble]

With the exception of Auschwitz, every extermination center in Poland was heavily staffed by people directly implicated in Involuntary Euthanasia, often by gas. So this is the quite obvious connection that orthodoxy sees that provides continuity between T4 and these other killing operations. It's not direct evidence of mass killing in and of itself, but it's compelling circumstantial documentary evidence.

These are your words, correct? And yet, I need to link you what you have already asserted?

Are you literally just wasting my fucking time?

Here;

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/ ... z-reinhard

Read this, specifically where you quoted from, again.

Also, I'd recommend looking at Arrad's work here more that Hilberg, not that it really matters.

From your own mouth the 'prior experience' is super important, and yet, it doesn't exist. Now, if I were to guess why no t4 personnel were chosen to perform gassing that had experience with gassing, it would be because THERE WERE NONE.

I think you're getting confused with your arguments, it seems like before you were talking about Germans being vilified, wild stories. Now you're saying the T4 staff didn't have experience. Ok let's look at the first 3 commandants of the camps

TREBLINKA
Irmfried Eberl (SS-Obersturmführer) - First Commandant of Treblinka II - T4 CONNECTION: Medical director in T4 killing centers

BELZEC
Christian Wirth (SS-Hauptsturmführer) - First Commandant (December 1941 - August 1942) - T4 CONNECTION: Inspector in T4 euthanasia centers, key figure in developing gassing procedures

SOBIBOR
Franz Stangl (SS-Obersturmführer) - First Operating Commandant (April 1942 - August 1942) - T4 CONNECTION: Deputy office manager at Hartheim T4 center

Which of these didn't have relevant experience? If that's your assertion, show it. Don't just tell me, I'm not going to believe you without evidence, just like I wouldn't believe the prosecutors at Nuremberg.

I'm stating both things, because they are both true.

You fail to understand the argument despite complete clarity on my end. Then you use this apparent confusion to muddy the conversation. If you don't understand what I'm saying, I don't know what to tell you, I have been very clear.

So far as showing you, that should have been succinct in my first post in this thread. It covers both the lack of asserted prior experience and the vilification.

/shrug

[bombsaway]

So far as showing you, that should have been succinct in my first post in this thread. It covers both the lack of asserted prior experience and the vilification.

/shrug

The asserted prior experience is obviously there for the first commandants. With lower level individuals there is a lack of clarity about their duties. Was Franz merely a cook? Why would a cook be promoted to commandant of a transit camp (assuming the revisionists are right) that processed 700,000 people? The revisionist framing has these problems too.

When it comes to vilification, are historians partaking in vilification if they're quoting and relaying witness testimony accurately? Wouldn't the witness testimony be the original vilification? That's why you have to go back to the sources here. The historians are irrelevant, unless you have examples of them distorting testimony etc

[Stubble]

Being a head chef teaches a lot about management. Many aspects of 'business management' are necessary for a head chef. Ordering, staging, managing personnel etc. There is also the bookkeeping and accounting angle. When managing a kitchen for hundreds of people, like at an institution, these aspects are amplified because the responsibilities are larger.

Historians have a responsibility to tell events as accurately as possible and to be impartial presenters of facts. Can you say 'well, they are just saying what the witnesses said'? Sure. They shouldn't be relying on people like yankel warnick and Philip Muler though, or eli wiesel for that matter. those selling pulp novels of atrocity porn are not 'historians'.

I get what you are saying, surely you can appreciate my point of view.

Ultimately history is written by the victor and Germany lost.

[bombsaway]

Being a head chef teaches a lot about management. Many aspects of 'business management' are necessary for a head chef. Ordering, staging, managing personnel etc. There is also the bookkeeping and accounting angle. When managing a kitchen for hundreds of people, like at an institution, these aspects are amplified because the responsibilities are larger.

Historians have a responsibility to tell events as accurately as possible and to be impartial presenters of facts. Can you say 'well, they are just saying what the witnesses said'? Sure. They shouldn't be relying on people like yankel warnick and Philip Muler though, or eli wiesel for that matter. those selling pulp novels of atrocity porn are not 'historians'.

I get what you are saying, surely you can appreciate my point of view.

Ultimately history is written by the victor and Germany lost.

Then this right here distinguished Franz as a good leader in the eyes of Wirth, who was very familiar with him through their shared work, and recommended him for a deputy commandant position at Treblinka. What strikes as you suspect about this?

I appreciate that you have a point of view but I don't understand what it is completely. So you think historians know that Weirnik was lying and go with it anyway because they are interested in vilifying Germans?

I'm not trying to muddy the waters. Do you think I'm being dishonest? Do you think Holocaust affirmers like myself have a high degree of confidence about our positions? There's no need to use dishonest tactics if you think you're overwhelmingly correct.

[Nessie]

Who were the not evil nazis at the Reinhardt camps?

It is not clear who were the murderous psychopaths and who were normal people who were prepared to do evil, because of Nazi indoctrination and coercion. Most of the staff at Belzec were acquitted at their trial in West Germany, because the court accepted they had been coerced to work there. The AR camp staff matter of fact testimony is because they were convinced that they were doing good, they were killing an enemy and their actions were lawful. That is how to get a good person to do an evil thing.

But, still, only a certain type of person can be persuaded to believe that mass killing of civilians, including children, is for the good. It made sense to take those who had proved themselves to be capable of that, by working on T4, to then work on AR.

[Nessie]

Being a head chef teaches a lot about management. Many aspects of 'business management' are necessary for a head chef. Ordering, staging, managing personnel etc. There is also the bookkeeping and accounting angle. When managing a kitchen for hundreds of people, like at an institution, these aspects are amplified because the responsibilities are larger.

Historians have a responsibility to tell events as accurately as possible and to be impartial presenters of facts. Can you say 'well, they are just saying what the witnesses said'? Sure. They shouldn't be relying on people like yankel warnick and Philip Muler though, or eli wiesel for that matter. those selling pulp novels of atrocity porn are not 'historians'.

I get what you are saying, surely you can appreciate my point of view.

Ultimately history is written by the victor and Germany lost.

The history of T4 and AR primarily comes from Germany. Germans have written the history of both operations. Historians rely more on German testimony, documents and other evidence, to get an accurate description of events, than the more emotive, often exaggerated Jewish evidence for AR. The entirety of the evidence for T4 and 13f14, comes from German sources.

Revisionists constantly make the mistake of cherry-picking the worst, lowest quality of evidence and obsess about that, causing them to mistakenly believe all the evidence is low quality. Revisionists love hearsay, rumour and the most emotive, exaggerated witness descriptions.

[HansHill]

The history of T4 and AR primarily comes from Germany. Germans have written the history of both operations. Historians rely more on German testimony, documents and other evidence, to get an accurate description of events, than the more emotive, often exaggerated Jewish evidence for AR. The entirety of the evidence for T4 and 13f14, comes from German sources.

Revisionists constantly make the mistake of cherry-picking the worst, lowest quality of evidence and obsess about that, causing them to mistakenly believe all the evidence is low quality. Revisionists love hearsay, rumour and the most emotive, exaggerated witness descriptions.

>Please don't focus on our low quality evidence

Mate it's all low quality.

The entirety of the evidence for T4 and 13f14, comes from German sources.

Except that, that's very high quality.