Chronology of the Holocaust

[bombsaway]

Emphasis mine. Exactly. The guilt (or more accurately "the continuity of guilt" doesn't come in at all, because that continuity doesn't exist across all instances (camps). To bring it down from the abstract to the concrete: If you proved to me that one of the transferred staff was a rapist in location-X, that does nothing to indicate his continuity of committing rapes at his new location-Y. The continuity is severed unless it can be demonstrated, ie he employed the same methods in both locations.

It's not one person though, it's dozens at least, and they absolutely had leadership roles. Was this mere happenstance? (as your single rapist analogy would suggest)

[Nessie]

Finally something tangible. The elusive "link" that Nessie has promised us about 5 pages ago. To remind ourselves:

It is the people who worked on the actions who provide the strongest link as they moved between Actions and AR camps.

Please explain what is the "strongest link". To a man, the examples you've given us from wikipedia is the redepoyment of staff between two facilities. I was expecting the "strongest link" to be something like a continuity of process for a demonstrably complex operation. Something like, the designer of the gas chamber re-spec'ing his designs to best suit the needs of AR. Or the morgue staff who had experience dealing with corpses instructing on the best method to store / dispose of them. Is it something like that? Or is it people being redeployed from location to location?

The obvious universal link, is that people who could cope with the killing of disabled people including children, would also cope with the gassing of Jews including children. They could be trusted to follow orders and keep quiet.

Then there are more direct links, such as Fuchs, who was a mechanic, who worked as a driver on T4, so he presumably also looked after the vehicles, and then he looked after the engines used at the AR camps. Eberl was a commander in charge of a euthanasia hospital, who was then put in charge of an AR camp.

=

As an aside, one of the reasons I and possibly many others don't take your arguments seriously (no offense) is this:

...Quite where you get the Eastern Front from, only your imagination or ignorance can tell...

...In the winter of 1941/42, he was again deployed with other "clinic staff" with the Organisation Todt on the Eastern Front as part of the transport of the wounded...

You called me ignorant for acknowledging the movement of medical staff from the interior of the Reich to the Eastern Front, then brazenly offered me an accout of the very same thing.

I did not realise Gley went from T4 to Operation Todt to AR. You claimed that I had said that T4 staff being transferred to the Eastern Front is to be "regarded as suspicious (or proof of genocide) is ridiculous", but I have said not such thing. I do say that that almost every single German member of AR camp staff, having previously worked on T4, is significant chronology, that directly links the operations.

[HansHill]

The obvious universal link, is that people who could cope with the killing of disabled people including children, would also cope with the gassing of Jews including children. They could be trusted to follow orders and keep quiet.

Then there are more direct links, such as Fuchs, who was a mechanic, who worked as a driver on T4, so he presumably also looked after the vehicles, and then he looked after the engines used at the AR camps. Eberl was a commander in charge of a euthanasia hospital, who was then put in charge of an AR camp.

Emphasis mine.

This is not what you've demonstrated at all. To a man, you have demonstrated:

- A Leichenbrenner
- A personal driver
- A nurse

You have not demonstrated that these people were selected for their ice cold-blooded murdering traits. You've just shown people being shuffled around a theater of war for operational purposes.

Pathetic!

[Nessie]

The obvious universal link, is that people who could cope with the killing of disabled people including children, would also cope with the gassing of Jews including children. They could be trusted to follow orders and keep quiet.

Then there are more direct links, such as Fuchs, who was a mechanic, who worked as a driver on T4, so he presumably also looked after the vehicles, and then he looked after the engines used at the AR camps. Eberl was a commander in charge of a euthanasia hospital, who was then put in charge of an AR camp.

Emphasis mine.

This is not what you've demonstrated at all. To a man, you have demonstrated:

- A Leichenbrenner
- A personal driver
- A nurse

You have not demonstrated that these people were selected for their ice cold-blooded murdering traits. You've just shown people being shuffled around a theater of war for operational purposes.

Pathetic!

If they truly were shuffled around, then 100% of the AR German staff would not have come from T4. That is the opposite of being shuffled. That is a positive selection, based on past performance and suitability. The chronology of T4 to AR is too perfect to be a coincidence.

Nazi euthanasia of the disabled, and prisoners, then the Jews, Roma and Jehovah's Witnesses is a progression over time, whereby the genuinely believed they were doing a good thing, protecting and preserving German society. It is consistent with commonly held beliefs in eugenics and is evidence of motive and opportunity.

[Stubble]

If they truly were shuffled around, then 100% of the AR German staff would not have come from T4. That is the opposite of being shuffled. That is a positive selection, based on past performance and suitability. The chronology of T4 to AR is too perfect to be a coincidence.

Nazi euthanasia of the disabled, and prisoners, then the Jews, Roma and Jehovah's Witnesses is a progression over time, whereby the genuinely believed they were doing a good thing, protecting and preserving German society. It is consistent with commonly held beliefs in eugenics and is evidence of motive and opportunity.

Do you have any documentation to back up the 100% assertion you just made?

[Nessie]

If they truly were shuffled around, then 100% of the AR German staff would not have come from T4. That is the opposite of being shuffled. That is a positive selection, based on past performance and suitability. The chronology of T4 to AR is too perfect to be a coincidence.

Nazi euthanasia of the disabled, and prisoners, then the Jews, Roma and Jehovah's Witnesses is a progression over time, whereby the genuinely believed they were doing a good thing, protecting and preserving German society. It is consistent with commonly held beliefs in eugenics and is evidence of motive and opportunity.

Do you have any documentation to back up the 100% assertion you just made?

I cannot link you to documentation that evidences the staff who worked on T4 and then at the AR camps. My understanding is that identification and admission evidence, from witnesses and Nazis naming who worked on both, is used to prove the connection. I also cannot link you to documentation regarding Action T4 itself, save for the Hitler order allowing euthanising and Nazi policies regarding eugenics, as it is not a topic I have ever looked into.

I have repeatedly linked to documentary evidence for the use of gas chambers under AR and at A-B.

[Numar Patru]

The initial commandants at the three AR camps were all from T4. It would be unusual for them not to have brought their staffs. Globocnik recruited Wirth in particular because of his T4 background.

[Stubble]

If they truly were shuffled around, then 100% of the AR German staff would not have come from T4. That is the opposite of being shuffled. That is a positive selection, based on past performance and suitability. The chronology of T4 to AR is too perfect to be a coincidence.

Nazi euthanasia of the disabled, and prisoners, then the Jews, Roma and Jehovah's Witnesses is a progression over time, whereby the genuinely believed they were doing a good thing, protecting and preserving German society. It is consistent with commonly held beliefs in eugenics and is evidence of motive and opportunity.

Do you have any documentation to back up the 100% assertion you just made?

I cannot link you to documentation that evidences the staff who worked on T4 and then at the AR camps. My understanding is that identification and admission evidence, from witnesses and Nazis naming who worked on both, is used to prove the connection. I also cannot link you to documentation regarding Action T4 itself, save for the Hitler order allowing euthanising and Nazi policies regarding eugenics, as it is not a topic I have ever looked into.

I have repeatedly linked to documentary evidence for the use of gas chambers under AR and at A-B.

Well, that's fair.

I do however find the claim that 100% of Operation Reinhardt personnel from Germany were also from t4 dubious, especially without documentation.

I'll pop over to the US Holocaust Memorial Museum website and see if I can vet that claim.

I am not going to just take it as correct, especially given your admitted lapse in knowledge here specifically.

I believe your understanding may be incongruent with the truth in this instance.

Having looked at the USHMM website section on Operation Reinhardt, I am not even sure where to start...

I trust it as far as I could throw it.

Look at this tripe;

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/ ... z-reinhard

[Nessie]

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/ ... z-reinhard

"The overwhelming majority of German camp personnel deployed at the Operation Reinhard camps came from Operation T4 (the Euthanasia Program)."

The article mentions Globocnik, no connection, Hofle, no connection and Wirth, connected.

[Stubble]

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/ ... z-reinhard

"The overwhelming majority of German camp personnel deployed at the Operation Reinhard camps came from Operation T4 (the Euthanasia Program)."

The article mentions Globocnik, no connection, Hofle, no connection and Wirth, connected.

Did I just rope myself into posting in this thread again?

/sigh

Look, that's still not congruent with your assertion 100%.

I'll let you get back to it. I had forgotten I was out. I'm out.

[bombsaway]

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/ ... z-reinhard

"The overwhelming majority of German camp personnel deployed at the Operation Reinhard camps came from Operation T4 (the Euthanasia Program)."

The article mentions Globocnik, no connection, Hofle, no connection and Wirth, connected.

I have no inclination to continue in this thread, but you might be served by showing the hc blog documents on sk lange, and then showing sk lange in its entirety was at chelmno
Chelmno I think is the strongest case of all extermination camps. Of course this won't work because I don't think anything can convince them the witnesses aren't mass lying.

Speaking to stubble, I guess as a concluding remark between you and I, I can say that you have deferred with presenting a better hypothesis for what happened. It's unlikely you would tread new ground and revolutionize the field, so there are a few to pick from. The no gassing claims always come back to mass resettlement. These I find deeply implausible, as implausible as you think the gassing claims are. So implausibility goes both ways, and there's no evidence for that hypothesis. Offering up a question mark doesn't do it for me either. Given the evidence at hand , we should be able to formulate a reasonable hypothesis

[Stubble]

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/ ... z-reinhard

"The overwhelming majority of German camp personnel deployed at the Operation Reinhard camps came from Operation T4 (the Euthanasia Program)."

The article mentions Globocnik, no connection, Hofle, no connection and Wirth, connected.

I have no inclination to continue in this thread, but you might be served by showing the hc blog documents on sk lange, and then showing sk lange in its entirety was at chelmno
Chelmno I think is the strongest case of all extermination camps. Of course this won't work because I don't think anything can convince them the witnesses aren't mass lying.

Speaking to stubble, I guess as a concluding remark between you and I, I can say that you have deferred with presenting a better hypothesis for what happened. It's unlikely you would tread new ground and revolutionize the field, so there are a few to pick from. The no gassing claims always come back to mass resettlement. These I find deeply implausible, as implausible as you think the gassing claims are. So implausibility goes both ways, and there's no evidence for that hypothesis. Offering up a question mark doesn't do it for me either. Given the evidence at hand , we should be able to formulate a reasonable hypothesis

I seem to recall mentioning that our plausibly structures are inverted. I stand by that.

Finding these missing persons is proving to be more difficult than I had anticipated, I had always assumed they had names, or at least individualized serial numbers. Unfortunately, many of these missing persons (feared dead) are alloted to single group numbers. This makes tracking them literally impossible.

Perhaps if I dig far enough, at some point, I might find a name. Even if I did, and they turned up having been put in a hole in the ground some 20 or 30 years after the event, I'm sure that would be a 1 off or some such.

Of course, this burden has nothing to do with chronology, but, that's not really the point, as apparently we are doing closing remarks, so, I feel your query should be addressed.

I am curious why you chose to pack up from your thread, but, that's something I suppose I can always ask you later.

Chelmno, specifically, used the unicorn homicidal gas vans if the canon is to be believed. This leaves me asking, can you find one? And I remind you, if you do, I have promised to cut it up with a right angle grinder and eat it on camera.

As a parting gift, I will leave you with the 'museum of tolerance caper' from Mr David Cole;

https://odysee.com/@RizoliTV:d/David-Co ... %2C-2024:5

[bombsaway]

I am curious why you chose to pack up from your thread, but, that's something I suppose I can always ask you later.

Well I was going through this evidence for your sake, but I've come to the conclusion there's noamount of documentation, testimony, and physical evidence that can convince you that orthodox claims are in any way tenable. It's probably not worth your time to study the orthodox narrative. Instead you might concentrate on the "missing" Jews, I could help you with this if you want.

[Stubble]

I am curious why you chose to pack up from your thread, but, that's something I suppose I can always ask you later.

Well I was going through this evidence for your sake, but I've come to the conclusion there's noamount of documentation, testimony, and physical evidence that can convince you that orthodox claims are in any way tenable. It's probably not worth your time to study the orthodox narrative. Instead you might concentrate on the "missing" Jews, I could help you with this if you want.

Good lord bombs, I do go through the orthodox stuff. You think I went to the USHMM to get a source everybody could approve of for my health? Then there's the reading, which while painful, I do do.

Now, with the USHMM link in particular, that level of dishonesty (and it isn't just there) it is painful. I mean, it would be one thing to simply misspell 'Reinhardt', but that isn't what they do, is it? No, instead, they ask me to believe that the documents and memoranda, the various stamps and everything else is wrong and that that is right. Then they spin a genocidal narrative around the name. It is dishonest and ridiculous.

It is the underhanded lies, the falsities and the miscarriages that keep me very firmly rooted on the other side of the fence.

Of course, absolutely none of that has anything to do with chronology, and furthermore, none of that could not have been said in a dm. Of course, if you ask, I will answer because such is my nature.

To watch, to look, to see, and to know, as people are willfully misinformed about history, and not say anything, it is absolutely despicable, and the people that do such have a special place waiting for them when they leave this earth.

So far as the t4 documents go, basically, if you believe that is supportive of mass murders with carbon monoxide gas, I'm glad you are not on a jury, because if I had a receipt for gasoline, I'd obviously be guilty of murder by arson, committed by someone else, in some other place, because why else would I have purchased gasoline.

So far as lie witnesses go, I guess there is just no getting through to you bombs, it happened. People lied. Lots of people lied. In specific places, everybody lied. I don't know what to say man.

[Nessie]

.....

Finding these missing persons is proving to be more difficult than I had anticipated, I had always assumed they had names, or at least individualized serial numbers. Unfortunately, many of these missing persons (feared dead) are alloted to single group numbers. This makes tracking them literally impossible.

Perhaps if I dig far enough, at some point, I might find a name. Even if I did, and they turned up having been put in a hole in the ground some 20 or 30 years after the event, I'm sure that would be a 1 off or some such.

Of course, this burden has nothing to do with chronology, but, that's not really the point, as apparently we are doing closing remarks, so, I feel your query should be addressed.

....

It is easier to track western Jews, whom the Dutch, French, Belgians etc kept records for. Tracing agencies, using national and Nazi records, created as each nation registered and arrested its Jewish citizens and the Nazis transported and imprisoned them, have been finding relatives since the end of the war. Those countries also know how many of their Jewish citizens returned home. A good example is the 34,000 Dutch Jews transported to Sobibor in 1943, of whom either 18 or 19 returned home in 1945. The postwar displaced persons agencies also kept records.

Tracking people is nowhere near as difficult as you want to pretend. There are all sorts of ancestry companies, cashing in on helping people to track or prove relatives, as they settle compensation and property claims, or people want to know what happened.

In 1945, it was blindingly obvious to all the occupied countries that the Jews arrested by or for the Nazis had plummeted in number. There were no millions of Jews, including nearly a million Western Jews, now living in the east. The Jewish population had collapsed, the exceptions being Denmark and Finland and that was because they were the least cooperative, most successfully protective of their Jewish citizens. They knew where they were in 1945. Every occupied or aligned country admits to its role in the Holocaust and how many of its citizens died as a result. Latvia accepts its citizens assisted the Nazis in shooting its Jewish population. The Dutch recognise that their cooperation in identifying and registering Jews, led to one of the highest death rates.

Chronologically, the records show that millions of Jews disappeared from the document trail inside only 5 camps and millions more had been in ghettos in the east in 1941-2 and by 1944 all of them had closed down. By 1945, the Allies liberating the camps and displaced persons tracing agencies reported only a few hundred thousand Jews.

You do not want to dig into the chronology, because you know that you will find evidence you really do not want to find.