The CODOH Revisionist Forum

Stubble wrote: ↑Mon Feb 24, 2025 4:22 am

bombsaway wrote: ↑Mon Feb 24, 2025 4:20 am

Stubble wrote: ↑Mon Feb 24, 2025 4:16 am

I mean, you unironically take this all seriously and you refuse to see any problem with it.

What problems do you see? Humor me, if you can, and be specific. If you think it's dangerous, say why. You haven't actually done that yet, from what I've seen.

What's dangerous about lethal concentrations of carbon monoxide?

/shrug

I'm done man.

I don't understand. If there wasn't lethal concentrations of CO they wouldn't be homicidal gas chambers.

Well fuck then man, let's just go get us some mud and slap it on a wall and we done got ourselves a full functioning gas chamber, I tell you what.

Ain't nothin' to it buddy, won't nobody else get hurt. We'll just run us a tube in there and pack that room full of carbon monoxide. Won't be nothin' to worry about when we go in there neither, and we won't have to undress anybody, totally worth it.

And to think, we used to just use a syringe, what a hassle....

You don't fucking understand the problem, and you refuse to.

I'm done.

Stubble wrote: ↑Mon Feb 24, 2025 4:28 am Well fuck then man, let's just go get us some mud and slap it on a wall and we done got ourselves a full functioning gas chamber, I tell you what.

Ain't nothin' to it buddy, won't nobody else get hurt. We'll just run us a tube in there and pack that room full of carbon monoxide. Won't be nothin' to worry about when we go in there neither, and we won't have to undress anybody, totally worth it.

And to think, we used to just use a syringe, what a hassle....

You don't fucking understand the problem, and you refuse to.

I'm done.

The "problems" you indicate, are all present with standard delousing rooms which were universal in labor camps.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernburg_ ... sia_Centre

The gas chamber here literally has just a window you can open to air it out. There's no risk of CO poisoning in an open air situation.

It seems like this is a possible end point between us, you think I'm being ridiculous, and I think you haven't presented any convincing arguments for this. Not even close. I genuinely don't understand where you're coming from.

bombsaway wrote: ↑Mon Feb 24, 2025 4:37 am

Stubble wrote: ↑Mon Feb 24, 2025 4:28 am Well fuck then man, let's just go get us some mud and slap it on a wall and we done got ourselves a full functioning gas chamber, I tell you what.

Ain't nothin' to it buddy, won't nobody else get hurt. We'll just run us a tube in there and pack that room full of carbon monoxide. Won't be nothin' to worry about when we go in there neither, and we won't have to undress anybody, totally worth it.

And to think, we used to just use a syringe, what a hassle....

You don't fucking understand the problem, and you refuse to.

I'm done.

The "problems" you indicate, are all present with standard delousing rooms which were universal in labor camps.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernburg_ ... sia_Centre

The gas chamber here literally has just a window you can open to air it out. There's no risk of CO poisoning in an open air situation.

It seems like this is a possible end point between us, you think I'm being ridiculous, and I think you haven't presented any convincing arguments for this. Not even close. I genuinely don't understand where you're coming from.

We were at an impasse days ago.

You are correct, you cannot see my point of view.

So far as a delousing chamber goes, the only place you see one inside an intake office is at majdanek, and it is quite obvious that they weren't using the office and the gas chamber at the same time.

Here though, it's totally cool man. No big deal.

That's not even the real issue though, the whole point of the gas chamber is to make the murderers more detached from the act of murder. You literally can't get more detached from the act than administering a lethal cocktail thinking it is a sedative and that the internee is being sedated for transport.

Then there is the ramshackle nature of it.

It still doesn't make any fucking sense...

You are absolutely right though, you see no problem with it.

And you won't.

Hell, you were perturbed that I saw an issue with someone laying face down in caustic soda waiting to be shot in the back of the head after packing themselves like a sardine in a mass grave man.

/shrug

Stubble wrote: ↑Mon Feb 24, 2025 4:46 am

bombsaway wrote: ↑Mon Feb 24, 2025 4:37 am

Stubble wrote: ↑Mon Feb 24, 2025 4:28 am Well fuck then man, let's just go get us some mud and slap it on a wall and we done got ourselves a full functioning gas chamber, I tell you what.

Ain't nothin' to it buddy, won't nobody else get hurt. We'll just run us a tube in there and pack that room full of carbon monoxide. Won't be nothin' to worry about when we go in there neither, and we won't have to undress anybody, totally worth it.

And to think, we used to just use a syringe, what a hassle....

You don't fucking understand the problem, and you refuse to.

I'm done.

The "problems" you indicate, are all present with standard delousing rooms which were universal in labor camps.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernburg_ ... sia_Centre

The gas chamber here literally has just a window you can open to air it out. There's no risk of CO poisoning in an open air situation.

It seems like this is a possible end point between us, you think I'm being ridiculous, and I think you haven't presented any convincing arguments for this. Not even close. I genuinely don't understand where you're coming from.

We were at an impasse days ago.

You are correct, you cannot see my point of view.

So far as a delousing chamber goes, the only place you see one inside an intake office is at majdanek, and it is quite obvious that they weren't using the office and the gas chamber at the same time.

Here though, it's totally cool man. No big deal.

That's not even the real issue though, the whole point of the gas chamber is to make the murderers more detached from the act of murder. You literally can't get more detached from the act than administering a lethal cocktail thinking it is a sedative and that the internee is being sedated for transport.

Then there is the ramshackle nature of it.

It still doesn't make any fucking sense...

You are absolutely right though, you see no problem with it.

And you won't.

Hell, you were perturbed that I saw an issue with someone laying face down in caustic soda waiting to be shot in the back of the head after packing themselves like a sardine in a mass grave man.

/shrug

I specifically called into question aspects of your interpretation, such as people laying down in caustic soda. This is a strawman, I'm not sure if it's significant but I would appreciate it if you didn't suggest I believe this.

Your preferred method, which is tell the T4 nurses that they're giving sedatatives and then quickly get the patients out before they

Typically 3 drugs are administered, a sedative, a paralytic and then the killing agent but if you want to use one, here's the timeline

Pentobarbital Single-Drug Protocol: General Timeline
Injection Begins (0 minutes)

The executioner typically administers a large dose of pentobarbital through an intravenous (IV) line.

Onset of Sedation (Within 30–60 seconds)

Pentobarbital quickly crosses the blood-brain barrier, leading to a rapid decrease in central nervous system (CNS) activity.
The person typically becomes drowsy and then progresses to unconsciousness.
Externally, observers might see:
Heavy eyelids or eyes rolling back.
Slurred speech (if they try to speak in the seconds before losing consciousness).
Slow or uncoordinated limb movements, then limpness.
Deep Unconsciousness (Within 1–2 minutes)

As the dose takes full effect, the person typically loses the ability to perceive or respond to stimuli.
Breathing becomes shallow and irregular; the respiratory drive is suppressed by the CNS depression.
Blood pressure and heart rate begin to drop due to the sedative effect on the cardiovascular system.
Respiratory Arrest (Usually 2–3 minutes after injection)

The high dose of pentobarbital can cause complete respiratory depression, meaning the individual stops breathing.
At this stage:
Externally, there may be little to no visible movement.
Cyanosis (a bluish tinge to skin) might appear if the individual is still observed closely, but it may not always be apparent depending on lighting and other factors.
Cardiac Depression Leading to Cardiac Arrest (Generally 3–10 minutes)

Oxygen deprivation (from stopped breathing) and direct cardiac depression from pentobarbital lead the heart to become increasingly bradycardic (slow) and hypotensive (low blood pressure).
Ultimately, this culminates in cardiac arrest (asystole—no heart activity).
Observers might see:
An absence of any chest movement.
No obvious physical signs of distress if the individual is deeply unconscious; any pain or discomfort would not typically be outwardly visible.
Confirmation of Death (Typically within 5–15 minutes total)

Officials or designated personnel confirm that the heart has stopped via stethoscope or electrocardiogram (ECG/EKG).
Time to confirmed death can vary but often is announced within a window of about 5–15 minutes after injection.

So basically these patients are showing serious symptoms within a few minutes so you have to get them out of there pronto, big rush. This is suspicious in and of itself likely, remember thousands were being killed. Then you have to enforce the silence of the orderlies or whatever. It's a fact that news of these killing programs got out into the general public, so you would expect the people actually working at these institutes to remain ignorant?

Your rationale here is deeply unconvincing to me, that's all I can say, I won't speculate about what's behind your reasoning but you have to substantiate your arguments.

bombsaway wrote: ↑Mon Feb 24, 2025 5:00 am

Stubble wrote: ↑Mon Feb 24, 2025 4:46 am

bombsaway wrote: ↑Mon Feb 24, 2025 4:37 am

The "problems" you indicate, are all present with standard delousing rooms which were universal in labor camps.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernburg_ ... sia_Centre

The gas chamber here literally has just a window you can open to air it out. There's no risk of CO poisoning in an open air situation.

It seems like this is a possible end point between us, you think I'm being ridiculous, and I think you haven't presented any convincing arguments for this. Not even close. I genuinely don't understand where you're coming from.

We were at an impasse days ago.

You are correct, you cannot see my point of view.

So far as a delousing chamber goes, the only place you see one inside an intake office is at majdanek, and it is quite obvious that they weren't using the office and the gas chamber at the same time.

Here though, it's totally cool man. No big deal.

That's not even the real issue though, the whole point of the gas chamber is to make the murderers more detached from the act of murder. You literally can't get more detached from the act than administering a lethal cocktail thinking it is a sedative and that the internee is being sedated for transport.

Then there is the ramshackle nature of it.

It still doesn't make any fucking sense...

You are absolutely right though, you see no problem with it.

And you won't.

Hell, you were perturbed that I saw an issue with someone laying face down in caustic soda waiting to be shot in the back of the head after packing themselves like a sardine in a mass grave man.

/shrug

I specifically called into question aspects of your interpretation, such as people laying down in caustic soda. This is a strawman, I'm not sure if it's significant but I would appreciate it if you didn't suggest I believe this.

Your preferred method, which is tell the T4 nurses that they're giving sedatatives and then quickly get the patients out before they

Typically 3 drugs are administered, a sedative, a paralytic and then the killing agent but if you want to use one, here's the timeline

Pentobarbital Single-Drug Protocol: General Timeline
Injection Begins (0 minutes)

The executioner typically administers a large dose of pentobarbital through an intravenous (IV) line.

Onset of Sedation (Within 30–60 seconds)

Pentobarbital quickly crosses the blood-brain barrier, leading to a rapid decrease in central nervous system (CNS) activity.
The person typically becomes drowsy and then progresses to unconsciousness.
Externally, observers might see:
Heavy eyelids or eyes rolling back.
Slurred speech (if they try to speak in the seconds before losing consciousness).
Slow or uncoordinated limb movements, then limpness.
Deep Unconsciousness (Within 1–2 minutes)

As the dose takes full effect, the person typically loses the ability to perceive or respond to stimuli.
Breathing becomes shallow and irregular; the respiratory drive is suppressed by the CNS depression.
Blood pressure and heart rate begin to drop due to the sedative effect on the cardiovascular system.
Respiratory Arrest (Usually 2–3 minutes after injection)

The high dose of pentobarbital can cause complete respiratory depression, meaning the individual stops breathing.
At this stage:
Externally, there may be little to no visible movement.
Cyanosis (a bluish tinge to skin) might appear if the individual is still observed closely, but it may not always be apparent depending on lighting and other factors.
Cardiac Depression Leading to Cardiac Arrest (Generally 3–10 minutes)

Oxygen deprivation (from stopped breathing) and direct cardiac depression from pentobarbital lead the heart to become increasingly bradycardic (slow) and hypotensive (low blood pressure).
Ultimately, this culminates in cardiac arrest (asystole—no heart activity).
Observers might see:
An absence of any chest movement.
No obvious physical signs of distress if the individual is deeply unconscious; any pain or discomfort would not typically be outwardly visible.
Confirmation of Death (Typically within 5–15 minutes total)

Officials or designated personnel confirm that the heart has stopped via stethoscope or electrocardiogram (ECG/EKG).
Time to confirmed death can vary but often is announced within a window of about 5–15 minutes after injection.

So basically these patients are showing serious symptoms within a few minutes so you have to get them out of there pronto, big rush. This is suspicious in and of itself likely, remember thousands were being killed. Then you have to enforce the silence of the orderlies or whatever. It's a fact that news of these killing programs got out into the general public, so you would expect the people actually working at these institutes to remain ignorant?

Your rationale here is deeply unconvincing to me, that's all I can say, I won't speculate about what's behind your reasoning but you have to substantiate your arguments.

When you present something as evidence, such as a testimony about the sardine method, without caveat, I'm going to assume that's what you believe buddy.

3 drugs, 3 nurses...

(After closer examination, it was 1 shot or pills)

T4 was propagandized to the hilt. I'll see if I can bring up some British intelligence memoranda for you. I'll do it in another thread.

So far as my motivations, strictly, absolutely, it is a quest for truth. I, personally, am doing nothing more than trying to separate the truth from the lie. Specifically. So far as my trust level is concerned, at this point, I feel it is well warranted. One can only be spoon fed lies for so long before they will look at someone with a hand full of truth with a side eye.

Again, stuff happened during ww2. Stuff.

When I am presented with the evidence for t4 gas chambers that I have personally reviewed, I find it unconvincing. You, are convinced there were homicidal gas chambers at Auschwitz that used zyclon beta to kill people and that 1 engine produced enough carbon monoxide to kill a warehouse full of people in treblinka in 15 minutes.

We have different plausibility structures. Obviously.

What I find satisfactory as evidence and what you find satisfactory as evidence are basically inverted. Any little detail or thing you can point at and say, this looks genocidal, it's proof of the holocaust. Anything I point out as inconsistent or ridiculous, is trivial and not worth noting, or, must be examined to a tighter tolerance than a machined part for a helicopter (that's a very stringent standard).

/shrug

I'm still looking at t4 and likely will be for decades, just like a whole series of other points in this history. There is just so much there.

This whole event, it is a lot to take in, and, there is much to study. It doesn't help that a lot of material presented for study is propagandized. A lot of books I can't even get through because it is dripping with so much bias that it disgusts me, on a visceral level. I just want truth, free from opinion, presented with sources that aren't circular and only reference the same 3 sources over and over again.

Any how, have a good one Bombsaway, I'm going to step out of this one, for real. For really real.

HansHill wrote: ↑Sun Feb 23, 2025 9:07 pm ...I'm the one who agrees T4 happened, and that CO (and for what it's worth, CO2) are plausible contenders for the murder weapon. I can also agree to some 5-digit number of patients terminated, although 70,000 personally feels a little high to me ...

When you describe your decision making process like that, clearly plausibility and your own gut feeling carries a lot of weight, rather than what is evidenced to have happened. Has the evidence for T4 played much part in why you agree T4 happened, or is your distrust of the evidence why you rely so much on your opinion and plausibility?

Archie wrote: ↑Mon Feb 24, 2025 12:24 am Just a heads up, this thread is probably going to get euthanized (locked) at some point since there's no clear scope or focus. The topic was obstensibly "chronology" which is really broad to begin with. But there wasn't much discussion of timeline related issues. It quickly turned into Einsatzgruppen. Then it pivoted to euthanasia. I fail to see the advantage in mixing all of this together or how the "chronology" theme adds anything to these discussions. It seems like separate threads would be better than a long meandering thread covering a bunch of different topics. Reminds me of the BA's case for orthodoxy thread (which in retrospect was also too disorganized).

I see this thread as a way for revisionists to get a better grip on the concept of chronology. Nazi euthanasia policies set the tone for what they were capable of doing. It is evidence of opportunity and motive, that given the opportunity, they will kill those they see as useless or a danger to society, which is their motive.

Action T4 predates the EG which predates AR. They are also interlinked, with gassings of the disabled not initially being transferred to the killing of Jews, who were shot. But, once gassing of the disabled had to be cancelled, and senior Nazis had seen the effect shootings had on the EG, the T4 staff were then used to gas Jews. For a time, mass shooting and gassings ran in parallel, they were separate chronologies. But then the chronologies merged as gassings took over from shootings. Killing the disabled has a separate but connected chronology with killing Jews. Then, to add to the mix, Action 13f14, the euthanising of concentration camp prisoners using the T4 hospitals, adds another, interlinked chronology.

Nazi policy was often not that organised. It flowed and changed, diverging and departing. It is complicated, since the various actions for killing people also competed with the various actions to use people for labour; Operation Todt, the concentration camps, forced labour and Jewish slave labour.

A better understanding of complexity, would make revisionists less confused and bewildered by all the evidence.

Nessie wrote: ↑Mon Feb 24, 2025 7:30 am
When you describe your decision making process like that, clearly plausibility and your own gut feeling carries a lot of weight, rather than what is evidenced to have happened. Has the evidence for T4 played much part in why you agree T4 happened, or is your distrust of the evidence why you rely so much on your opinion and plausibility?

What sort of question is this? The inputs to arriving at an informed opinion include considering:

- Evidence
- Plausibility
- Motive
- Opportunity
- Context
- Method

With the T4 killings we can point to at least some of these as being sound, however some less so than others - for example, and it is utterly baffling how we are on page 21 of this thread and this has still not been answered (or even attempted yet): method. How does the suggested method of T4 (gas chamber) get transposed to AR? Be specific. Which medical staff were deployed to AR and in what capacities? Did they shift from working as nurses under T4 to engine operators under AR? Did they oversee the safe operation of the haircutting facilities so nobody was hurt with scissors? What aspect of the T4 method is more sound than, as i suggested, euthanasia by breathing apparatus? (hard mode, if you address this question by simply saying it's not evidenced, then you are not addressing this specific question and I cannot make it any more simple for you unfortunately).

All things considered, I welcome the mods locking this thread, and putting us all out of our misery as the Exterminationists here have been acting thoroughly in bad-faith, specifically BA and to a slightly lesser extent Nessie, infuriating both the good natured Stubble and I.

HansHill wrote: ↑Mon Feb 24, 2025 12:10 pm

Nessie wrote: ↑Mon Feb 24, 2025 7:30 am
When you describe your decision making process like that, clearly plausibility and your own gut feeling carries a lot of weight, rather than what is evidenced to have happened. Has the evidence for T4 played much part in why you agree T4 happened, or is your distrust of the evidence why you rely so much on your opinion and plausibility?

What sort of question is this? The inputs to arriving at an informed opinion include considering:

- Evidence
- Plausibility
- Motive
- Opportunity
- Context
- Method

I say that revisionists are far too reliant on plausibility and far too guilty on ignoring evidence.

With the T4 killings we can point to at least some of these as being sound, however some less so than others - for example, and it is utterly baffling how we are on page 21 of this thread and this has still not been answered (or even attempted yet): method. How does the suggested method of T4 (gas chamber) get transposed to AR? Be specific. Which medical staff were deployed to AR and in what capacities? Did they shift from working as nurses under T4 to engine operators under AR? Did they oversee the safe operation of the haircutting facilities so nobody was hurt with scissors? What aspect of the T4 method is more sound than, as i suggested, euthanasia by breathing apparatus? (hard mode, if you address this question by simply saying it's not evidenced, then you are not addressing this specific question and I cannot make it any more simple for you unfortunately).

All things considered, I welcome the mods locking this thread, and putting us all out of our misery as the Exterminationists here have been acting thoroughly in bad-faith, specifically BA and to a slightly lesser extent Nessie, infuriating both the good natured Stubble and I.

Regarding the chronology of staff moving from T4 to AR, you can easily find lists of staff for the AR camps if you got to Wikipedia pages on each camps trial. Then look at the history of each person. For example

The Belzec trial

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belzec_trial

The introduction notes the link "These trials are directly related to the mass murder of 100,000 people in the official Nazi Euthanasia programme known after the war as Action T4, as many of the security guards worked in the euthanasia centres before transferring to the extermination camps"

Then the staff entries;

"Josef Kaspar Oberhauser (20 September 1915 – 22 November 1979) was a low-ranking German SS commander during the Nazi era. He participated in Action T4 and Operation Reinhard...At the killing centers of Grafeneck, Brandenburg and Bernburg, where these people were murdered en masse by gas (carbon monoxide poisoning), Oberhauser was a Brenner (burner), or Leichenbrenner (corpse burner): he was responsible for the burning of the bodies in the specially installed crematory ovens....From November 1941 until 1 August 1942, Oberhauser was posted to Bełżec extermination camp as the leader of a guard platoon."

"Erich Fuchs (9 April 1902 – 25 July 1980) was an SS functionary who worked for the Action T4 mass-murder program, and for the Operation Reinhard phase of the Holocaust....He began his career as a motor mechanic. He joined the Nazi Party and the SA in May 1933. Following the outbreak of World War II, in 1940 Fuchs was assigned to the clandestine Action T4 euthanasia program. He served as Dr. Irmfried Eberl's driver while Eberl was medical director of the T-4 killing centers at Brandenburg and Bernburg....After the successful installation of the gassing motor at Belzec, in April 1942 Fuchs was moved to the next secret construction site at the Sobibor extermination camp."

"Heinrich Gley (* 16 February 1901 Rödlin in Mecklenburg; † 10 June 1985 in Münster [ 1 ] ) was a German officer. As an SS-Oberscharführer he was involved in the “ Operation T4 ” and the “ Operation Reinhardt ....At the beginning of January 1940, Gley was transferred to "Action T4" and initially worked in the Grafeneck euthanasia facility . He was then transferred to the Schloss Sonnenstein euthanasia facility , where he held the position of senior nurse until January 1942. In the winter of 1941/42, he was again deployed with other "clinic staff" with the Organisation Todt on the Eastern Front as part of the transport of the wounded. During this time, he was promoted to SS-Oberscharführer...After being transferred transferred to “Action Reinhardt,” Gley was sent to the Belzec extermination camp in August 1942. There he supervised the arriving transports of Jews at the ramp, the undressing barracks and the gassing process , and he led work details. Gley is said to have personally shot at least three disabled or sick Jews in Belzec. After the gassings in Belzec ended in December 1942, camp commandant Gottlieb Hering and Gley supervised the cremation of the corpses from the mass graves ."

Keep going and you will see the connections. We know about the details of their roles, because of the statements they provided and they corroborated each other and were named by surviving prisoners. I have yet to find someone who is not connected from AR to T4, except for the AR Ukrainian staff.

Finally something tangible. The elusive "link" that Nessie has promised us about 5 pages ago. To remind ourselves:

Nessie wrote: ↑Sat Feb 22, 2025 8:08 am
It is the people who worked on the actions who provide the strongest link as they moved between Actions and AR camps.

Please explain what is the "strongest link". To a man, the examples you've given us from wikipedia is the redepoyment of staff between two facilities. I was expecting the "strongest link" to be something like a continuity of process for a demonstrably complex operation. Something like, the designer of the gas chamber re-spec'ing his designs to best suit the needs of AR. Or the morgue staff who had experience dealing with corpses instructing on the best method to store / dispose of them. Is it something like that? Or is it people being redeployed from location to location?


=

As an aside, one of the reasons I and possibly many others don't take your arguments seriously (no offense) is this:

Nessie wrote: ↑Sat Feb 22, 2025 4:29 pm ...Quite where you get the Eastern Front from, only your imagination or ignorance can tell...

Nessie wrote: ↑Mon Feb 24, 2025 1:09 pm
...In the winter of 1941/42, he was again deployed with other "clinic staff" with the Organisation Todt on the Eastern Front as part of the transport of the wounded...

You called me ignorant for acknowledging the movement of medical staff from the interior of the Reich to the Eastern Front, then brazenly offered me an accout of the very same thing.

With the exception of Auschwitz, every extermination center in Poland was heavily staffed by people directly implicated in Involuntary Euthanasia, often by gas. So this is the quite obvious connection that orthodoxy sees that provides continuity between T4 and these other killing operations. It's not direct evidence of mass killing in and of itself, but it's compelling circumstantial documentary evidence.

I see no great need to continue here because I think I'm not really viewed as legitimate or understandable, so if this is the narrative most of the things I'm saying are going to be undermined by that.

bombsaway wrote: ↑Mon Feb 24, 2025 4:24 pm With the exception of Auschwitz, every extermination center in Poland was heavily staffed by people directly implicated in Involuntary Euthanasia, often by gas. So this is the quite obvious connection that orthodoxy sees that provides continuity between T4 and these other killing operations. It's not direct evidence of mass killing in and of itself, but it's compelling circumstantial documentary evidence.

I see no great need to continue here because I think I'm not really viewed as legitimate or understandable, so if this is the narrative most of the things I'm saying are going to be undermined by that.

I understand the argument. However this is yet another fallacy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homunculus_argument . In this case, the recursive "homunculus" is the medical staff, who are recursively guilty on each step in the continuum (recursion, or presence in a given location) without being able to define that continuity satisfactorily in terms of guilt, which you admirably admit - incidentally this is exactly why i was so pedantic about "method" earlier, which i assume you appreciated and could anticipate because you were so hesitant to commit to it. Nessie however, beat you to the punch, and therefore this fallacy was played out.

Agreed, we don't need to continue this thread. I might start a new thread about the redeployment of staff between T4 and AR if Nessie can muster up something satisfactory, but on the other hand Im not optimistic.

HansHill wrote: ↑Mon Feb 24, 2025 4:38 pm

bombsaway wrote: ↑Mon Feb 24, 2025 4:24 pm With the exception of Auschwitz, every extermination center in Poland was heavily staffed by people directly implicated in Involuntary Euthanasia, often by gas. So this is the quite obvious connection that orthodoxy sees that provides continuity between T4 and these other killing operations. It's not direct evidence of mass killing in and of itself, but it's compelling circumstantial documentary evidence.

I see no great need to continue here because I think I'm not really viewed as legitimate or understandable, so if this is the narrative most of the things I'm saying are going to be undermined by that.

I understand the argument. However this is yet another fallacy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homunculus_argument . In this case, the recursive "homunculus" is the medical staff, who are recursively guilty on each step in the continuum (recursion, or presence in a given location) without being able to define that continuity satisfactorily in terms of guilt, which you admirably admit - incidentally this is exactly why i was so pedantic about "method" earlier, which i assume you appreciated and could anticipate because you were so hesitant to commit to it. Nessie however, beat you to the punch, and therefore this fallacy was played out.

Agreed, we don't need to continue this thread. I might start a new thread about the redeployment of staff between T4 and AR if Nessie can muster up something satisfactory, but on the other hand Im not optimistic.

I don't know where "guilt" comes in. T4 was about involuntary euthanasia, the connection to killing activities is right there. There's a lot more details here, in terms of staff transfer time, location, but it's probably not worth getting into.

bombsaway wrote: ↑Mon Feb 24, 2025 4:51 pm
I don't know where "guilt" comes in. T4 was about involuntary euthanasia, the connection to killing activities is right there. There's a lot more details here, in terms of staff transfer time, location, but it's probably not worth getting into.

Emphasis mine. Exactly. The guilt (or more accurately "the continuity of guilt" doesn't come in at all, because that continuity doesn't exist across all instances (camps). To bring it down from the abstract to the concrete: If you proved to me that one of the transferred staff was a rapist in location-X, that does nothing to indicate his continuity of committing rapes at his new location-Y. The continuity is severed unless it can be demonstrated, ie he employed the same methods in both locations.

Because we don't have that, we don't have continuity. To be fair, the closest that Nessie could show me is that someone who worked with cremation ovens in T4 (Leichenbrenner, or corpse burner) and then was redeployed to Belzec, seemingly forgot all about how to burn bodies and decided it was to all be done on pyres. So that does more to discredit the story than support it.