My presentation

[Wahrheitssucher]

…of the 99% of people who dedicated their lives to studying the Third Reich and Hitler at many of the most prestigious universities in the Ivy League and the UK, not a single one reached the same conclusions as the revisionists. Not a single one.

Wow!
You are still applying the same logically fallacious reasoning.

Plus you are ignorantly reducing everything to some vague, unspecified dichotomy.

The reality is that many academics have accepted some of the revisionist research findings.
Do you need examples?
Or is your mind closed?

Focus now:
1.). any claim — whatever it is about — can not be decided to be true and correct simply because many people believe it.
That applies even if the majority say they believe it.
2.) people say they believe things in order to have careers. That is especially true if expressing disbelief in a majority-accepted belief-system is outlawed.

Example: Salem witch trials.
The majority view at that place at that time was that witches existed and they made blood pacts with ‘the Devil’ and cast spells and curses on people.

The Judges, the clergy, those who administered the courts, the prisons and the systems of governance all believed that to be incontrovertibly true. They executed people over it.

Were all of them stupid except for the [disbelievers in all that]?

If you want a simplistic answer: YES, THEY WERE!

The same applies to any consensus view that persists in spite of empirical evidence.

The ‘holocaust’ claim of their being a planned genocide of ALL jews — one supposedly partially carried out by mass-gassings in certain numbers claimed, at certain sites claimed, by certain methods claimed — is not proven or falsified by counting how many people previously believed the claims.
Do you understand?

[Gonzalo]

Wow!
You are still applying the same logically fallacious reasoning.

Plus you are ignorantly reducing everything to some vague, unspecified dichotomy.

The reality is that many academics have accepted some of the revisionist research findings.
Do you need examples?
Or is your mind closed?

Focus now:
1.). any claim — whatever it is about — can not be decided to be true and correct simply because many people believe it.
That applies even if the majority say they believe it.
2.) people say they believe things in order to have careers. That is especially true if expressing disbelief in a majority-accepted belief-system is outlawed.

Example: Salem witch trials.
The majority view at that place at that time was that witches existed and they made blood pacts with ‘the Devil’ and cast spells and curses on people.

The Judges, the clergy, those who administered the courts, the prisons and the systems of governance all believed that to be incontrovertibly true. They executed people over it.

Were all of them stupid except for the [disbelievers in all that]?

If you want a simplistic answer: YES, THEY WERE!

The same applies to any consensus view that persists in spite of empirical evidence.

The ‘holocaust’ claim of their being a planned genocide of ALL jews — one supposedly partially carried out by mass-gassings in certain numbers claimed, at certain sites claimed, by certain methods claimed — is not proven or falsified by counting how many people previously believed the claims.
Do you understand?

You twisted my comment. It wasn't an appeal ad populum; I was simply pointing out that the Holocaust is obvious to most intelligent people. Although, of course, this doesn't mean that all revisionists are idiots, many are motivated by hatred of Jews or admiration for Hitler/Nazi Germany, and ideologies lead to fanaticism, and fanaticism leads to bias.

Your comparison to the witch trials is absurd. The era of the witch trials and the era in which Nazi criminals were tried are entirely different. Educated Western society was overwhelmingly secular and based on the scientific method and the rule of law in the mid-20th century. The Enlightenment had been underway for a long time. The Nazis were given the opportunity to defend themselves and present their testimony, and in the subsequent trials in West Germany, the number of possible irregularities was virtually zero.

[Eye of Zyclone]

You're right. Appealing to the masses is never a good idea. I'm going to be more elitist: of the 99% of people who dedicated their lives to studying the Third Reich and Hitler at many of the most prestigious universities in the Ivy League and the UK, not a single one reached the same conclusions as the revisionists. Not a single one. Are all of them stupid except for the revisionists?

Stupid, no. Trapped in a false paradigm, yes. They are like ghost hunters who interpret the slightest creak of old stairs and the smallest squeak of a rusty door as a supernatural manifestation and paranormal activity, that is, in their eyes, as irrefutable proof of the presence of a poltergeist (their one and only explanation, their inescapable foregone conclusion, in accordance with their preconceived beliefs). Understandable. After being shown horrific pictures of typhus victims mislabelled as mass murder victims, the case seemed closed and unimpeachable. A dishonest but very efficient trick. That trick even turned most of the German defendants at postwar show trials into Holocaust believers who tried to make sense out of it by postulating that Himmler had perpetrated a top secret extermination program behind their backs.

[Wahrheitssucher]

Wow!
You are still applying the same logically fallacious reasoning.

Plus you are ignorantly reducing everything to some vague, unspecified dichotomy.

The reality is that many academics have accepted some of the revisionist research findings.
Do you need examples?
Or is your mind closed?
…[snip]…

The ‘holocaust’ claim of there being a planned genocide of ALL jews — one supposedly partially carried out by mass-gassings in certain numbers claimed, at certain sites claimed, by certain methods claimed — is not proven or falsified by counting how many people previously believed the claims.
Do you understand?

You twisted my comment.

No I didn’t. I accurately quoted it then refuted it using logic.

It wasn't an appeal ad populum; I was simply pointing out that the Holocaust is obvious to most intelligent people.

You are still applying the exact-same, common fallacy.
That suggests you are unable to understand why it is fallacious reasoning.

…many revisionists are motivated by hatred of Jews or admiration for Hitler/Nazi Germany.

1.) That is an unsupported claim. Plus I suspect it is another false belief you have accepted without testing. How many revisionists do you know? How many of the ones you know are anti-semites and admire AH/NSDAP Germany?
2.) Even if correct it makes no difference to whether the revisionist arguments are accurate. You are now applying the ad hominem logical fallacy.

Your comparison to the witch trials is absurd…. [snip]

Your argument for why you believe that shows:
a.) you haven’t yet understood the argument ad populum fallacy,
b.) is further illogicality and avoidance.

You didn’t accept my offer to provide examples of academics who have accepted some of the revisionist research findings.
That I suggest shows you are not genuinely interested in historical veracity, but are merely here to pontificate.

[Archie]

1) It is not “just another migration.” It was a massive resettlement program that DID take place and was carried out by the Nazis to Germanize Poland. In this case, we have documents, photographs, testimonies, inventories, and records. If Jews were resettled in a manner similar to the Volksdeutsches, why is there not a single piece of evidence, testimony, or account to support it? Did none of these Jews want to speak about their experiences in the Jewish colonies in the Russian East? It doesn’t make sense.

2) because the “Heim ins Reich” program demonstrates just how bureaucratic and meticulous the Nazi state was and how it constituted a genuine resettlement of the population. The question is simple: Why is there evidence of Germans resettled in Poland, yet not a single piece of evidence of Jews resettled in the East? Furthermore. There are other questions that remain unanswered: if the Jews were partisans [or potential partisans], Bolsheviks, usurers, subversives, and a host of other negative labels, what was the point of giving them their own settlement in the midst of a war with the USSR? Why take them to the Russian East and not use them as slave labor at a time when Germany desperately needed to increase its war production if it wanted to win the war? What was the opportunity cost of the resettlement from the Nazi perspective? Where were they going to resettle them? Were they going to expel Ukrainians and Belarusians from their homes to give them to the Jews?

If they didn't die and we were deceived by Allied/Soviet/Jewish propaganda, where are they? Can you explain their disappearance?

What do you mean, where are they? There's not much mystery there. Jews are where they are. (And some number have undoubtedly shed their Jewish identity and blended into Gentile society). The open questions are over the dynamic movement of Jews during and after the war, of providing an itinerary for all the Jews and tracking all their intermediate movements. Under the revisionist thesis, they ended up where they are. The difference is that whereas the official statistics claim a ~40% contraction in the world Jewish population which has gradually recovered, revisionists think this contraction was far more modest and that the "recovery" is largely a statistical artifact as more and more Jews have moved to Israel.

-There are over 7,000,000 Jews in Israel, a territory that had only a couple hundred thousand Jews in 1939. Where did all these Jews come from?
-Jews have also grown as a presence in the US
-There are significant populations in Canada, the UK, France. And there are non-trivial numbers even in fairly random places like Argentina.
-In terms of global power, Jews became more not less powerful after the war

Investigations have already been conducted, and everyone has concluded that the Jews who were sent there perished.

In that case it should be easy for you to present the proof that was uncovered at these investigations. So do it. So far all you've done is claim, without support, that it has been proved by others. And you've also argued, multiple times now, that the Holocaust must be true because everyone supposedly believes in it.

Nearly all of the extermination sites were investigated by the Extraordinary State Commission, a Stalinist propaganda organ whose reports are acknowledged to be unreliable even by the mainstream. The American and British investigations were not much better. Subsequent historians have effectively deferred to the facts that were supposedly established at Nuremberg and other trials.

Isn't the Höfle telegram enough proof of that?

Proof of murder? Absolutely not. It would need to be combined with additional evidence that, uh, establishes that they were actually killed.

Which gas chambers were fake, and why?

At Majdanek, there are up to 7-8 rooms that were claimed to be gas chambers. Most of these have been retracted. Below is a photograph of a ventilation shaft over a laundry room that the communists tried to pass off as a Zyklon B shaft for gassings.



But if you prefer we can talk about the famous "gas chamber" in Auschwitz I which is now admitted to be a "reconstruction." Or the Dachau "gas chamber" which the museum later claimed was never used.

Mass graves and skeletal remains were found. Not all of the dead, however, because the Nazis burned the vast majority of them.

"Remains were found" doesn't mean anything. It's a quantitative question. The remains that have been shown are not even close to the millions of bodies that would be expected. And cremations (most of which are said to have occurred with wood in open air) would still leave abundant physical evidence.

Can you please share some photos of these remains that you claim exist? Maybe start with the largest grave that has been found and excavated.

Impossible? According to whom? Roberto Muehlenkamp did an excellent job refuting Mattogno's claims regarding the plausibility of mass cremations.

Muehlenkamp's arguments are ridiculous. He needed the fuel requirements to be extremely low so he stacked up a bunch of silly assumptions to get the numbers as low as possible. (He does the same thing for space requirements for mass burials). He seriously claims that you can cremate a body completely with only 15 kg of wood. You can't. Certainly not with the procedure that has been described.

Straight from the HC "white paper"

And are the testimonies of Germans like Erwin Lambert also false?

If the most historically important witnesses like Hoess don't hold up, you can't just step over that problem. You need to address it. False Holocaust witnesses are not neutral evidence. If the testimonies upon which the Holocaust history was based are false, that at minimum raises a lot of doubt.

If Jankiel Wiernik is a false witness, then, yes, it is highly likely that Erwin Lambert's (very late) testimony about Treblinka is also false.

[Archie]

You're right. Appealing to the masses is never a good idea. I'm going to be more elitist: of the 99% of people who dedicated their lives to studying the Third Reich and Hitler at many of the most prestigious universities in the Ivy League and the UK, not a single one reached the same conclusions as the revisionists. Not a single one. Are all of them stupid except for the revisionists?

Academics in the US are not even really allowed to be Republicans much less "Nazis."

But don't professional historians and other experts accept the Holocaust?

Spoiler

In most of Europe, it is now illegal to do research on the Holocaust unless you respect certain predetermined conclusions. In the United States, free thought on the Holocaust is still allowed to a degree because of the First Amendment tradition, but Holocaust revisionism is still suppressed via corporate censorship and other forms of harassment and economic threats. Because the Holocaust is sacralized history, to challenge it is treated not just as an intellectual folly but a moral outrage. Thus it carries with it an especially strong opprobrium and moral censure that is not present in ordinary intellectual debates. This moral dimension makes "Holocaust denial" akin to heresy in a religious context and this explains why the Holocaust is especially hard to challenge.

Unthinking deference to expert opinion is an unreliable heuristic on third rail topics like "the Holocaust" where people cannot share their true views without suffering retaliation. If institutional powers decree that "Holocaust denial" is inherently not respectable, then by definition no one "respectable" can support Holocaust denial. Such circularities mean little.

An additional, less appreciated point is that Holocaust revisionism actually fares much better from a credentialist perspective than one might assume. And this is especially true when we consider the first few decades after the war, before "The Holocaust" became socially and politically dominant. Many early Holocaust skeptics in America were surprisingly well-credentialed. Harry Elmer Barnes, had a PhD in history from Columbia and published prolifically for decades and was a long-time editor at Foreign Affairs. Another early revisionist, David Hoggan, had a PhD in history from Harvard. They were in fact better credentialed than many of the early Holocaust historians who generally were not professional historians at elite universities. The two authors of the most notable early comprehensive histories on the Holocaust, Gerald Reitlinger and Raul Hilberg, did not have PhDs in history (Hilberg's field was political science) and neither of their books were published by prestigious academic presses. It was not until the late 1970s that "the Holocaust" began acquiring the academic prestige it now enjoys.

Despite all the pressures to the contrary, we do see some hints of revisionism even within mainstream academics. In the early 1990s, Joel Hayward, a grad student in history at the University of Canterbury in New Zealand, submitted a master's thesis on Holocaust revisionism which in which Hayward largely endorsed the revisionist position. Not only was the thesis accepted, it was deemed the best thesis that year and Hayward was awarded special recognition for his efforts. The controversial thesis was submitted in 1993 but not made public until 1999, at which point Jewish activists predictably tried to get the degree revoked, prompting Hayward to begin the customary groveling. Such are the dynamics at play and such explains the artificial consensus on the Holocaust issue. Similarly, in France in 1985, Henri Roques submitted a doctoral dissertation which presented detailed and scholarly textual criticism of the statements of Kurt Gerstein, one of the most crucial and widely cited gas chamber witnesses. Roques's doctoral degree was cancelled in 1986 after intervention from a French government official.

Many major revisionists like Arthur Butz and Robert Faurisson have had PhDs in a variety of fields, and many such as Germar Rudolf and Fritz Berg have had technical backgrounds. What we find with revisionists is an eclectic group of individuals from a variety of nationalities, professional backgrounds, and political sensibilities who have all concluded, often at great personal cost and little personal benefit, that the Holocaust is not true.

There remain an unknown number of "closet" revisionists within academia and other fields. These are those who agree with us but who keep their heads down for professional and personal reasons. In recent decades, many revisionists have had to write under pseudonyms such as the late "Samuel Crowell" who had a master's degree in Eastern European history from Columbia and "Thomas Dalton" who has a PhD and "taught humanities at a prominent American university for several years." Carlo Mattogno, the most prolific revisionist researcher, has received anonymous assistance from sympathetic archival specialists in Europe.

From the FAQ in our Beginner's Guide.
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[Gonzalo]

What do you mean, where are they? There's not much mystery there. Jews are where they are. (And some number have undoubtedly shed their Jewish identity and blended into Gentile society). The open questions are over the dynamic movement of Jews during and after the war, of providing an itinerary for all the Jews and tracking all their intermediate movements. Under the revisionist thesis, they ended up where they are. The difference is that whereas the official statistics claim a ~40% contraction in the world Jewish population which has gradually recovered, revisionists think this contraction was far more modest and that the "recovery" is largely a statistical artifact as more and more Jews have moved to Israel.

-There are over 7,000,000 Jews in Israel, a territory that had only a couple hundred thousand Jews in 1939. Where did all these Jews come from?
-Jews have also grown as a presence in the US
-There are significant populations in Canada, the UK, France. And there are non-trivial numbers even in fairly random places like Argentina.
-In terms of global power, Jews became more not less powerful after the war

What's going on? Why aren't you talking about the “Heim ins Reich” program and its comparison to the Jewish resettlements in the Russian East? Why didn't you answer my questions that challenge revisionism using basic logic?

There are currently 16 million Jews in the world. If we’re extremely generous and apply the broad definition of Israel, there are 24–25 million Jews (counting even those with only one Jewish grandparent as Jewish). Before the war, there were more than 16 million Jews in the world, and their birth rates were generally high, especially in Poland and the Baltic states, where they remained faithful to their religion. The world population was 2,300,000,000 in 1939; today it is 8,300,000,000. This means that, thanks to advances in agriculture, medicine, and services, the world population has grown by 350% (or multiplied by 3.5) over the past 80 years. If nothing particularly serious had happened to the Jews, as the revisionist charlatans like to claim, there should be between a minimum of 28 million and a maximum of 56 million Jews in the world today. The maximum figure is 25 million. The numbers don’t add up. The revisionists are lying.

Israel was formed from Jews who had made aliyah between 1890 and 1938, survivors of the Holocaust and the KL system, and North African Jews expelled by the Arabs in 1948, and it owes much of its population to the ultra-Orthodox.

In that case it should be easy for you to present the proof that was uncovered at these investigations. So do it. So far all you've done is claim, without support, that it has been proved by others. And you've also argued, multiple times now, that the Holocaust must be true because everyone supposedly believes in it.

Nearly all of the extermination sites were investigated by the Extraordinary State Commission, a Stalinist propaganda organ whose reports are acknowledged to be unreliable even by the mainstream. The American and British investigations were not much better. Subsequent historians have effectively deferred to the facts that were supposedly established at Nuremberg and other trials.

Revisionist cope.

Proof of murder? Absolutely not. It would need to be combined with additional evidence that, uh, establishes that they were actually killed.

There is a great deal of evidence. The Höfle telegram is one example, but the reports from the Einsatzgruppen, the memos from the German resistance (Canaris, Oster, Gisevius, Goerdeler, Moltke, etc.), the documents from the perpetrators (blueprints, invoices, orders for Zyklon B, transport records), and the reports from the Polish resistance are further evidence. Let’s look at a memorandum by Moltke, a member of the resistance against Nazism:

Concerning the fighting that took place in the Ghetto of Warsaw last May, the following details are now available:

Approximately 30,000–35,000 Jews interned in the Warsaw Ghetto had for months been working tenaciously to transform their barracks and stone houses into a defensive system, and had dug subterranean passages connecting the Ghetto with the outer city, in preparation for the expected arrival of SS “annihilation squads” for the partial or total liquidation of the Ghetto. Through underground ducts and dugout connecting passages to the surrounding parts of the city, the Jews had succeeded with the help of Polish partisans and German soldiers in transporting food, building materials, and arms into the Ghetto. The most modern equipment, from light automatic weapons to the heaviest arms, had been secured—in some cases bought—out of army and SS stores and secretly accumulated in the Ghetto. Several hundred German deserters had also taken refuge in the Ghetto and worked on the makeshift fortifications together with the Jews.

Late in April, two platoons of the regular German garrison of Warsaw received orders to conduct a certain transport of Jews from the Ghetto to one of the nearby railway stations, where they were to be taken over by SS guards and consigned to one of the “annihilating institutes” which have been set up in Poland.

These two platoons did not return. Two further platoons which were sent out to find out what had become of them, and to execute the order, did not return either. It has been ascertained that both units met with armed resistance, that a large part of them went over to the defenders with all arms and equipment, while the rest were overcome and taken prisoners. These events, it is important to note, were preceded by a protest by officers of the regular army against their employment for tasks unconnected with the military service of warfare.

Early in May, motorized units were brought up to crush the resistance of the Ghetto. A regular battle began, during which the assault troops had occasion to convince themselves that the Jews were equipped with the most up-to-date weapons, automatic guns, field guns, even anti-tank and anti-aircraft guns, and were entrenched in veritable fortified bunkers. Up to the middle of May, many hundred officers and men from the companies charged with breaking the resistance of the Ghetto deserted or went over with their arms to help the defenders, until on May 16 the regular companies had to be retired to be replaced by mechanized SS [Waffen-SS]. Bitter fighting then went on between the defenders and large detachments of SS troops, during which several thousand German Officers and men were killed or wounded. The resistance of the Ghetto was almost entirely broken down by heavy tanks and dive-bombers, and the Ghetto itself all but razed to the ground. Only a few thousand of the 30,000-odd interned Jews are reported to have survived the battle; they have been transferred to new camps where they have probably been “liquidated” by now. Only a few Jews and a small number of the defending German soldiers are said to have succeeded in escaping to the city by way of the underground passages. The extensive investigations started by the Gestapo, SD (Sicherheitsdienst), and SS (Security Service) have brought to light the fact that in addition to several hundred German deserters about 1200–1500 German officers and men had gone over and helped in the defence of the Ghetto. The defence was conducted under the command of a German colonel, who is reported to have made this escape during the last days of the fighting.

The proceedings instituted in the matter have been kept a close secret, and the Gestapo has done everything in its power to keep the news from leaking through even to the OKW and the Party. Hundreds of arrests, deportations, and executions are said to have taken place in order to confine the circle of those informed of the occurrences to the most trusted members of the Gestapo, SD, and SS. According to a secret report of the German Sicherheitsdienst, the motive of the German officers and men in taking action against the “liquidation” of the internees of the Ghetto has been their refusal to take any further part in the perpetration of massacres and atrocities, from their conviction that the German soldier’s duty was to defend the German people against an external enemy, if the interest of the State demanded it, but not to assist in senseless and inhuman cruelties against innocent and helpless men and women by order of a party which professed to act in the name of the German people.

https://germanhistorydocs.org/en/nazi-g ... uly-9-1943

At Majdanek, there are up to 7-8 rooms that were claimed to be gas chambers. Most of these have been retracted. Below is a photograph of a ventilation shaft over a laundry room that the communists tried to pass off as a Zyklon B shaft for gassings.

But if you prefer we can talk about the famous "gas chamber" in Auschwitz I which is now admitted to be a "reconstruction." Or the Dachau "gas chamber" which the museum later claimed was never used.

Yawn

The accepted death toll for Majdanek is 78,000. The majority were Jews who were gassed. The fake gas chamber at Auschwitz is a reconstruction of a real one, and Dachau was never an extermination camp (Broszat said so decades ago). The KL system, in which people were forced to work to death under inhumane conditions, had little to nothing to do with the system of extermination camps implemented between 1942 and 1945. Nikolas Waschmann’s recent research on the subject makes this clear. The fact that there were no gas chambers at Dachau changes absolutely nothing

"Remains were found" doesn't mean anything. It's a quantitative question. The remains that have been shown are not even close to the millions of bodies that would be expected. And cremations (most of which are said to have occurred with wood in open air) would still leave abundant physical evidence.

Can you please share some photos of these remains that you claim exist? Maybe start with the largest grave that has been found and excavated.

Can you send me a photo of the bodies of the 6–7 million Red Army soldiers who died in direct combat with the Wehrmacht (Krivosheev)? No? Then how do you know that the Wehrmacht actually inflicted casualties on the Red Army? Eyewitness accounts? No. They aren’t reliable. German soldiers lied for personal gain. I propose a new revisionist theory: the Red Army never lost a battle, and all Soviet defeats were propaganda fabrications by Goebbels. Can I consider myself a revisionist now?

Muehlenkamp's arguments are ridiculous. He needed the fuel requirements to be extremely low so he stacked up a bunch of silly assumptions to get the numbers as low as possible. (He does the same thing for space requirements for mass burials). He seriously claims that you can cremate a body completely with only 15 kg of wood. You can't. Certainly not with the procedure that has been described.

Straight from the HC "white paper"

Burning bodies on pyres reduces the amount of wood needed. Fire produces more fire, and besides, the murdered Jews were generally malnourished and weakened.

If the most historically important witnesses like Hoess don't hold up, you can't just step over that problem. You need to address it. False Holocaust witnesses are not neutral evidence. If the testimonies upon which the Holocaust history was based are false, that at minimum raises a lot of doubt.

If Jankiel Wiernik is a false witness, then, yes, it is highly likely that Erwin Lambert's (very late) testimony about Treblinka is also false.

Hoess only lied at first. Later, he recanted, and his estimate matches the figures currently being accepted now. Similarly, Eichmann confessed to everything he did, and Eichmann held a higher rank than Hoess. Oh wait, was Eichmann tortured too?

[Archie]

What's going on? Why aren't you talking about the “Heim ins Reich” program and its comparison to the Jewish resettlements in the Russian East? Why didn't you answer my questions that challenge revisionism using basic logic?

There are currently 16 million Jews in the world. If we’re extremely generous and apply the broad definition of Israel, there are 24–25 million Jews (counting even those with only one Jewish grandparent as Jewish). Before the war, there were more than 16 million Jews in the world, and their birth rates were generally high, especially in Poland and the Baltic states, where they remained faithful to their religion. The world population was 2,300,000,000 in 1939; today it is 8,300,000,000. This means that, thanks to advances in agriculture, medicine, and services, the world population has grown by 350% (or multiplied by 3.5) over the past 80 years. If nothing particularly serious had happened to the Jews, as the revisionist charlatans like to claim, there should be between a minimum of 28 million and a maximum of 56 million Jews in the world today. The maximum figure is 25 million. The numbers don’t add up. The revisionists are lying.

Israel was formed from Jews who had made aliyah between 1890 and 1938, survivors of the Holocaust and the KL system, and North African Jews expelled by the Arabs in 1948, and it owes much of its population to the ultra-Orthodox.

You can't take global population growth which has been concentrated in Asia and Africa (and mostly due to basic health and sanitation improvements) and apply the average to wealthy First World populations. You are effectively trying to pretend like Jews have the same demographic characteristics as Nigerians or Bangladeshis which is just goofy. Population growth is flat or negative among wealthier populations. Wealthy white countries show some overall population growth but it's almost all due to immigration.

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[Archie]

Yawn

The accepted death toll for Majdanek is 78,000. The majority were Jews who were gassed. The fake gas chamber at Auschwitz is a reconstruction of a real one, and Dachau was never an extermination camp (Broszat said so decades ago). The KL system, in which people were forced to work to death under inhumane conditions, had little to nothing to do with the system of extermination camps implemented between 1942 and 1945. Nikolas Waschmann’s recent research on the subject makes this clear. The fact that there were no gas chambers at Dachau changes absolutely nothing

Dismissing my point with "yawn" is unsupported disagreement. Please review the forum rules again: "Refrain from unsupported disagreement. This means that if you disagree with something or think it is incorrect, you must explain why you disagree or show why it's incorrect. A mere expression of disapproval is not sufficient."

If you think this sort of discussion is "boring" then I have to wonder why you joined here and why you've been spamming the board with so many posts. Seems like you are here to flood the board with nonsense and are not interested in engaging in anything substantive.

The laundry room hoax is the most laughable thing at Majdanek but all of the "gas chambers" at that camp are dubious. The shower room at the Bath and Disinfection station is a real shower room and it's full of windows. Very early on, it was claimed people were gassed in the shower room (see clip below) but because it's obviously unsuitable for gassings the Soviets soon modified the story to say that the victims were gassed after being given a real bath. The logic of that escapes me. The small brick building is also claimed for gassings. The one side has blue stains indicating that Zyklon B was certainly used there. But there are no Zyklon holes and hence no way to introduce Zyklon B into a room full of people. So now they claim the room did double duty: they fumigated clothes with Zyklon B they but ALSO occasionally gassed people - with carbon monoxide! The story is totally incoherent. They cling to it only because if they admit Majdanek was a hoax it would cast doubt on all the other "gas chambers" at Auschwitz and elsewhere.



The Auschwitz I gas chamber is an obvious fake. The Zyklon B holes were added by the Poles after the war. There are photos of the roof in 1945 and there's nothing there. We know there were no holes and that the reconstruction was a fraudulent because they "restored" the holes in the wrong places. They measured from the ends of the room as it was after the war without realizing that a wall had been knocked out. If there had really been any holes, it would have been clear where they had been filled in.



You claim that the Dachau gas chamber being fake means "absolutely nothing." I disagree because quite obviously it destroys the credibility of the "investigations" you were just touting. See for yourself what the Americans were claiming about this in 1945.

[Gonzalo]

You can't take global population growth which has been concentrated in Asia and Africa due to health improvements and apply the average to wealthy First World populations. You are effectively trying to pretend like Jews have the same demographic characteristics as Nigerians or Bangladeshis which is just goofy. Population growth is flat or negative among wealthier populations. Wealthy white countries show some overall population growth but it's almost all due to immigration.

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You are ignoring several key facts:

1) The developed Western world experienced an unprecedented population boom between 1946 and 1965. The population continued to grow at a steady rate until the late 1970s in most of the West. The Eastern Bloc continued to grow demographically until 1989, and that would include the so-called “resettled” Jews.



2) There were 3.5 million Polish Jews, according to Hans Frank’s broad estimate, and the vast majority lived a highly traditional lifestyle in which having children was almost a sacred duty. It has been proven that culture influences birth rates. If those Jews migrated en masse to Israel, Israel should have a much larger population than the mere 7 million it currently has, because it is impossible for a highly religious population not to have doubled in size over 80 years.

3) Where are the records documenting the arrival of resettled Jews in Israel? Why didn’t any of them speak about their new lives after being resettled? Why didn’t they seek to bring their stories as victims of Nazism to light? Israeli statistics make no mention of 4–5 million European Jews arriving by ship in Tel Aviv. If you have other data, I would appreciate it if you could share it with me.

[Gonzalo]

Dismissing my point with "yawn" is unsupported disagreement. Please review the forum rules again: "Refrain from unsupported disagreement. This means that if you disagree with something or think it is incorrect, you must explain why you disagree or show why it's incorrect. A mere expression of disapproval is not sufficient."

If you think this sort of discussion is "boring" then I have to wonder why you joined here and why you've been spamming the board with so many posts. Seems like you are here to flood the board with nonsense and are not interested in engaging in anything substantive.

Are you a little nervous about my presence? My interests revolve around the Holocaust and refuting revisionist rhetoric, but I’m also interested in refuting all the other common neo-Nazi claims (Judeo-Bolshevism, Hitler didn’t start the war, Germany was the victim, etc.). That’s perfectly compatible with the forum’s goal, which is to debate everything related to the period from 1933 to 1945. If that’s not possible, just change the rules and say, “We only discuss the Holocaust here,” and problem solved.

The laundry room hoax is the most laughable thing at Majdanek but all of the "gas chambers" at that camp are dubious. The shower room at the Bath and Disinfection station is a real shower room and it's full of windows. Very early on, it was claimed people were gassed in the shower room (see clip below) but because it's obviously unsuitable for gassings the Soviets soon modified the story to say that the victims were gassed after being given a real bath. The logic of that escapes me. The small brick building is also claimed for gassings. The one side has blue stains indicating that Zyklon B was certainly used there. But there are no Zyklon holes and hence no way to introduce Zyklon B into a room full of people. So now they claim the room did double duty: they fumigated clothes with Zyklon B they but ALSO occasionally gassed people - with carbon monoxide! The story is totally incoherent. They cling to it only because if they admit Majdanek was a hoax it would cast doubt on all the other "gas chambers" at Auschwitz and elsewhere.

[...]

The Auschwitz I gas chamber is an obvious fake. The Zyklon B holes were added by the Poles after the war. There are photos of the roof in 1945 and there's nothing there. We know there were no holes and that the reconstruction was a fraudulent because they "restored" the holes in the wrong places. They measured from the ends of the room as it was after the war without realizing that a wall had been knocked out. If there had really been any holes, it would have been clear where they had been filled in.

[...]

The shower room in the building they called “Bath and Disinfection” (Barrack 41) was exactly that—a real shower room with big windows. When the Soviets liberated the camp in July 1944, some of their early reports and footage mixed things up and made it sound like people were gassed right there. That was a mistake. The State Museum at Majdanek corrected it years ago. Today the museum is clear: that room was for bathing and disinfection. People went in, showered, and in some cases their clothes were handled separately. There’s no mysterious “logic that doesn’t make sense.” The first Soviet reports just got some details wrong, and later research with the original plans and witness statements cleared it up.

The brick building behind it—the gas-chamber bunker—is a different story. That one was used for killing. The walls and ceiling still show heavy blue staining. Those stains are ferrocyanide, what’s called Prussian blue, and they only form after prolonged exposure to hydrogen cyanide—the gas released by Zyklon B. That’s been chemically confirmed. Several of the chambers also have perforated metal pipes running about a foot off the floor, connected to a small annex where gas cylinders were kept. Those pipes aren’t for killing lice. Carbon monoxide doesn’t kill insects; it only kills warm-blooded creatures. So the only reason to install those pipes was to murder people.

There’s a specific document: the sworn statement of Friedrich Wilhelm Ruppert, the head of Majdanek’s technical department, dated August 6, 1945 (Nuremberg document NO-1903). Ruppert describes “a solid stone building about 6 by 6 meters and roughly 2 meters high, with two doors… Outside the building was a little annex where the gas cylinder was stored.” That matches the bunker that still stands today.

Hundreds of Zyklon B cans were also found in the camp—more than 500 according to the joint Soviet-Polish inventory from August 1944—along with several gas cylinders. Contemporary chemical tests confirmed the cans contained hydrogen cyanide and that at least some of the cylinders held carbon monoxide. There are statements from prisoners who worked in the clothing-disinfection area and saw the same spaces, or rooms right next to them, used both for clothes and for people. The museum still states that Jews and other prisoners were murdered in that brick building between 1942 and 1943, using both Zyklon B and carbon monoxide.

As for the “laundry”: nearby there were drying and clothing-disinfection facilities. Some of those rooms also show blue stains because Zyklon B was used to delouse clothing. That doesn’t turn everything into a hoax. The Nazis used the same product for two different purposes. It’s not incoherent; it’s practical and brutal.

Now Auschwitz I, Crematorium I.

The large morgue in that building was turned into a provisional gas chamber at the end of 1941. Holes were punched in the flat roof, short wooden chimneys with lids were added, and ventilation was installed. The first gassings took place there, including the one on February 15, 1942 with Jews from Upper Silesia. Once the big installations at Birkenau came online, this site stopped being used for mass killings. In 1944 it was converted into an air-raid shelter: the introduction holes were sealed, partition walls were put in, and the doors were altered.

After the war, between 1946 and 1947, the Polish authorities partially restored its original appearance as a gas chamber. They removed the air-raid shelter partitions and reopened several of the holes. The key witness is Adam Złobnicki, a Pole who was present during that reconstruction. In a 1981 statement he said, word for word: “I remember perfectly well that the openings for the introduction of Zyklon B which were located on the flat roof of this crematorium were also remade. The reconstruction was made easier by the fact that at the locations of the former insertion openings there remained clear traces after the sealing of the former openings with cement. At these very points the openings were re-established and the little chimneys were raised. This work, too, was done in 1946–1947.”

That lines up with what’s visible today. Forensic examinations by Daniel Keren, Jamie McCarthy, and Harry Mazal (published in 2000 and used in the David Irving trial) looked at the roof. They found sealing marks in the concrete that match the positions of the restored holes. They also saw that the reinforcing bars (rebar) had been deliberately cut in a square pattern exactly where the original holes had been. Photographs of the roof taken in 1945, before the restoration, show stains and sealed areas that, once you adjust for the wall that was knocked out after the war, line up with the current positions.

The Auschwitz Museum itself explains it on their website: “The furnaces and the chimney were dismantled, and the holes in the roof used for introducing Zyklon B were closed. Two of the three furnaces and the chimney were reconstructed (from the original parts), and several of the holes in the roof of the gas chamber were reopened.”

You claim that the Dachau gas chamber being fake means "absolutely nothing." I disagree because quite obviously it destroys the credibility of the "investigations" you were just touting. See for yourself what the Americans were claiming about this in 1945.

[...]

No. I didn’t say that. Dachau was a slave labor camp designed primarily to repress political opponents. Its main purpose was not to kill, although there were undoubtedly shootings of prisoners almost from the very beginning [see Waschmann]. In other concentration camps within the KL system, such as Mauthausen, gassings did occur, but on a small scale. It is most likely that the Nazis attempted to build a functional gas chamber at Dachau to take revenge by murdering the last remaining prisoners and opponents, but they never actually used it.

Dachau is irrelevant to the Holocaust, and the alleged forgery does not invalidate the overwhelming evidence of mass murders outside of Dachau. Just as the discovery that a specific Stalin-era gulag was actually a children's amusement park does not refute the existence of the gulag system or the NKVD's mass executions

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... l#dachaugc

[Archie]

Spoiler

Dismissing my point with "yawn" is unsupported disagreement. Please review the forum rules again: "Refrain from unsupported disagreement. This means that if you disagree with something or think it is incorrect, you must explain why you disagree or show why it's incorrect. A mere expression of disapproval is not sufficient."

If you think this sort of discussion is "boring" then I have to wonder why you joined here and why you've been spamming the board with so many posts. Seems like you are here to flood the board with nonsense and are not interested in engaging in anything substantive.

Are you a little nervous about my presence? My interests revolve around the Holocaust and refuting revisionist rhetoric, but I’m also interested in refuting all the other common neo-Nazi claims (Judeo-Bolshevism, Hitler didn’t start the war, Germany was the victim, etc.). That’s perfectly compatible with the forum’s goal, which is to debate everything related to the period from 1933 to 1945. If that’s not possible, just change the rules and say, “We only discuss the Holocaust here,” and problem solved.

The laundry room hoax is the most laughable thing at Majdanek but all of the "gas chambers" at that camp are dubious. The shower room at the Bath and Disinfection station is a real shower room and it's full of windows. Very early on, it was claimed people were gassed in the shower room (see clip below) but because it's obviously unsuitable for gassings the Soviets soon modified the story to say that the victims were gassed after being given a real bath. The logic of that escapes me. The small brick building is also claimed for gassings. The one side has blue stains indicating that Zyklon B was certainly used there. But there are no Zyklon holes and hence no way to introduce Zyklon B into a room full of people. So now they claim the room did double duty: they fumigated clothes with Zyklon B they but ALSO occasionally gassed people - with carbon monoxide! The story is totally incoherent. They cling to it only because if they admit Majdanek was a hoax it would cast doubt on all the other "gas chambers" at Auschwitz and elsewhere.

[...]

The Auschwitz I gas chamber is an obvious fake. The Zyklon B holes were added by the Poles after the war. There are photos of the roof in 1945 and there's nothing there. We know there were no holes and that the reconstruction was a fraudulent because they "restored" the holes in the wrong places. They measured from the ends of the room as it was after the war without realizing that a wall had been knocked out. If there had really been any holes, it would have been clear where they had been filled in.

[...]

The shower room in the building they called “Bath and Disinfection” (Barrack 41) was exactly that—a real shower room with big windows. When the Soviets liberated the camp in July 1944, some of their early reports and footage mixed things up and made it sound like people were gassed right there. That was a mistake. The State Museum at Majdanek corrected it years ago. Today the museum is clear: that room was for bathing and disinfection. People went in, showered, and in some cases their clothes were handled separately. There’s no mysterious “logic that doesn’t make sense.” The first Soviet reports just got some details wrong, and later research with the original plans and witness statements cleared it up.

The brick building behind it—the gas-chamber bunker—is a different story. That one was used for killing. The walls and ceiling still show heavy blue staining. Those stains are ferrocyanide, what’s called Prussian blue, and they only form after prolonged exposure to hydrogen cyanide—the gas released by Zyklon B. That’s been chemically confirmed. Several of the chambers also have perforated metal pipes running about a foot off the floor, connected to a small annex where gas cylinders were kept. Those pipes aren’t for killing lice. Carbon monoxide doesn’t kill insects; it only kills warm-blooded creatures. So the only reason to install those pipes was to murder people.

There’s a specific document: the sworn statement of Friedrich Wilhelm Ruppert, the head of Majdanek’s technical department, dated August 6, 1945 (Nuremberg document NO-1903). Ruppert describes “a solid stone building about 6 by 6 meters and roughly 2 meters high, with two doors… Outside the building was a little annex where the gas cylinder was stored.” That matches the bunker that still stands today.

Hundreds of Zyklon B cans were also found in the camp—more than 500 according to the joint Soviet-Polish inventory from August 1944—along with several gas cylinders. Contemporary chemical tests confirmed the cans contained hydrogen cyanide and that at least some of the cylinders held carbon monoxide. There are statements from prisoners who worked in the clothing-disinfection area and saw the same spaces, or rooms right next to them, used both for clothes and for people. The museum still states that Jews and other prisoners were murdered in that brick building between 1942 and 1943, using both Zyklon B and carbon monoxide.

As for the “laundry”: nearby there were drying and clothing-disinfection facilities. Some of those rooms also show blue stains because Zyklon B was used to delouse clothing. That doesn’t turn everything into a hoax. The Nazis used the same product for two different purposes. It’s not incoherent; it’s practical and brutal.

Now Auschwitz I, Crematorium I.

The large morgue in that building was turned into a provisional gas chamber at the end of 1941. Holes were punched in the flat roof, short wooden chimneys with lids were added, and ventilation was installed. The first gassings took place there, including the one on February 15, 1942 with Jews from Upper Silesia. Once the big installations at Birkenau came online, this site stopped being used for mass killings. In 1944 it was converted into an air-raid shelter: the introduction holes were sealed, partition walls were put in, and the doors were altered.

After the war, between 1946 and 1947, the Polish authorities partially restored its original appearance as a gas chamber. They removed the air-raid shelter partitions and reopened several of the holes. The key witness is Adam Złobnicki, a Pole who was present during that reconstruction. In a 1981 statement he said, word for word: “I remember perfectly well that the openings for the introduction of Zyklon B which were located on the flat roof of this crematorium were also remade. The reconstruction was made easier by the fact that at the locations of the former insertion openings there remained clear traces after the sealing of the former openings with cement. At these very points the openings were re-established and the little chimneys were raised. This work, too, was done in 1946–1947.”

That lines up with what’s visible today. Forensic examinations by Daniel Keren, Jamie McCarthy, and Harry Mazal (published in 2000 and used in the David Irving trial) looked at the roof. They found sealing marks in the concrete that match the positions of the restored holes. They also saw that the reinforcing bars (rebar) had been deliberately cut in a square pattern exactly where the original holes had been. Photographs of the roof taken in 1945, before the restoration, show stains and sealed areas that, once you adjust for the wall that was knocked out after the war, line up with the current positions.

The Auschwitz Museum itself explains it on their website: “The furnaces and the chimney were dismantled, and the holes in the roof used for introducing Zyklon B were closed. Two of the three furnaces and the chimney were reconstructed (from the original parts), and several of the holes in the roof of the gas chamber were reopened.”

You claim that the Dachau gas chamber being fake means "absolutely nothing." I disagree because quite obviously it destroys the credibility of the "investigations" you were just touting. See for yourself what the Americans were claiming about this in 1945.

[...]

No. I didn’t say that. Dachau was a slave labor camp designed primarily to repress political opponents. Its main purpose was not to kill, although there were undoubtedly shootings of prisoners almost from the very beginning [see Waschmann]. In other concentration camps within the KL system, such as Mauthausen, gassings did occur, but on a small scale. It is most likely that the Nazis attempted to build a functional gas chamber at Dachau to take revenge by murdering the last remaining prisoners and opponents, but they never actually used it.

Dachau is irrelevant to the Holocaust, and the alleged forgery does not invalidate the overwhelming evidence of mass murders outside of Dachau. Just as the discovery that a specific Stalin-era gulag was actually a children's amusement park does not refute the existence of the gulag system or the NKVD's mass executions

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... l#dachaugc

All right, Gonzalo. I'm sick of having to approve your posts, so I am placing you in Quarantine. This last post where you posted blatant AI was the last straw. You can continue to post in Quarantine but you will not be allowed to post on the main boards. If you can show some improvement then you may be allowed back on the main boards.

I would again encourage you to read the forum rules.

Maintain a high signal to noise ratio, i.e., make sure your posts are informative and that they make a meaningful addition to the discussion. High noise posting is especially unwelcome on the Debate board.

Authorship: Your posts should represent your own thoughts and words. Copied text should always be attributed and quoted. Any AI/LLM generated text must be quoted and disclosed as AI. Never try to pass off AI-generated text as your own work. Be selective in sharing AI output. Do not use AI to comment on sources and materials you are not familiar with.

[HansHill]

Are you a little nervous about my presence?

No offence Gonzalo, but there have been more impressive orthodox posters to frequent the board, whose input has been welcomed and actively encouraged (Dr Terry is one, who is always welcome).

Please… don’t break your arm jerking yourself off.