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Re: The murder mill Treblinka II
Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2025 7:15 am
by Nessie
Stubble wrote: ↑Thu Mar 06, 2025 4:35 pm
Nessie wrote: ↑Thu Mar 06, 2025 11:45 am
Why are you thinking that 27, the approach to the gas chambers, would be visible from 15 and 17, the station square and platform where selections took place?
What are your thoughts on
this map?
KUDLIK, WIERNIK, TRAUTSOLT MAP
One of the first maps, drawn by survivors in 1945. One of the only survivor maps which - regarding the shape - corresponds with the site as it appears today as well as aerial photo evidence.
Source: Zdzislaw Lukaszkiewicz. Oboz stracen w Treblince. PIW, Warszawa 1946.
http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/maps.html
It just locates the main features. It does not evidence that the way to the gas chambers was clearly visible to people at the station.
Re: The murder mill Treblinka II
Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2025 8:16 am
by Nazgul
Nessie wrote: ↑Fri Mar 07, 2025 7:13 am
In 1945, there were extensive excavations at TII, uncovering cremated and identifiable human remains. The main area of remains, was an area of 2 hectares and one excavation went down 7m before undisturbed ground was found.
Of course there were cremains or whatever, there are reports of trainloads arriving dead.
Re: The murder mill Treblinka II
Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2025 11:06 am
by TlsMS93
Nessie wrote: ↑Fri Mar 07, 2025 7:13 am
In 1945, there were extensive excavations at TII, uncovering cremated and identifiable human remains. The main area of remains, was an area of 2 hectares and one excavation went down 7m before undisturbed ground was found.
Wait a minute. Do you mean that in 1945 they turned over the soil and then in 2010 an archaeologist appeared willing to document the location of the graves using LIDAR? Why didn't the equipment record this huge area, a defect? And if it had already been excavated and documented, there would be no reason for all this work by Caroline
According to Willenberg, the area that the Nazis used to bury the 800,000 bodies was 6 hectares
I would like you to make available the report of this 1945 excavation so that we can know what was really done. Post it here.
Re: The murder mill Treblinka II
Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2025 11:33 am
by Nessie
TlsMS93 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 07, 2025 11:06 am
Nessie wrote: ↑Fri Mar 07, 2025 7:13 am
In 1945, there were extensive excavations at TII, uncovering cremated and identifiable human remains. The main area of remains, was an area of 2 hectares and one excavation went down 7m before undisturbed ground was found.
Wait a minute. Do you mean that in 1945 they turned over the soil...
Yes.
... and then in 2010 an archaeologist appeared willing to document the location of the graves using LIDAR?
Staffs Uni got permission from the Poles to do a geophysical survey.
Why didn't the equipment record this huge area, a defect?
No, a huge memorial.
And if it had already been excavated and documented, there would be no reason for all this work by Caroline
As archaeological and geophysical equipment and methods improve, sites are often revisited, especially when the existing work was carried out some time ago, when there was little to no equipment available, as happened in 1945. That first survey was very basic, due to a lack of resources and equipment. The investigating Judge had some labourers with shovels.
According to Willenberg, the area that the Nazis used to bury the 800,000 bodies was 6 hectares
He was estimating. People are not very good at estimating size.
I would like you to make available the report of this 1945 excavation so that we can know what was really done. Post it here.
Page 82 to 89 here;
https://holocausthandbooks.com/book/treblinka/
Re: The murder mill Treblinka II
Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2025 11:44 am
by HansHill
???
Re: The murder mill Treblinka II
Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2025 1:19 pm
by Nessie
HansHill wrote: ↑Fri Mar 07, 2025 11:44 am
???
What do you find confusing about that? Lukaszkiewicz interviewed escaped prisoners, who told him that the mass graves and been exhumed, corpses cremated and the cremains mixed back into the ground, that was then planted over. His examination found no mass graves and instead, large areas of cremated and larger human remains, so corroborating the witnesses.
Re: The murder mill Treblinka II
Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2025 1:35 pm
by Numar Patru
TlsMS93 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 07, 2025 2:33 am
Numar Patru wrote: ↑Fri Mar 07, 2025 12:37 am
I have no idea how these two things are related
That your degree of law and how justice works may be distorted. Anyone accused of murder would demand the body and that the injuries were caused by him. But you don't need to. In fact, I don't even know what you're doing on this forum because you're not capable and you don't think you should satisfy our doubts, you just claim that it's all doubts from fanatical minds.
Because it is.
If just one of you weren’t absolutely demented when it comes to the topic of Jews, you might have a case.
Re: The murder mill Treblinka II
Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2025 3:09 pm
by TlsMS93
Nessie wrote: ↑Fri Mar 07, 2025 11:33 am
Page 82 to 89 here;
This work refuted the Holocaust more than it helped. Cremations occurred, but that's all. It doesn't say the cause of death or the magnitude, as Mattogno concluded.
If there are witnesses talking about 6 hectares, turn it all over, sift the ashes and determine how many bodies there were and be done with it. Anything less doesn't convince me.
Re: The murder mill Treblinka II
Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2025 3:31 pm
by Fred Ziffel
This may be of help to calculate the amount of wood needed
What amount of heat loss occurs in open air burns?
See attached
Re: The murder mill Treblinka II
Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2025 3:47 pm
by Nessie
TlsMS93 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 07, 2025 3:09 pm
Nessie wrote: ↑Fri Mar 07, 2025 11:33 am
Page 82 to 89 here;
This work refuted the Holocaust more than it helped. Cremations occurred, but that's all. It doesn't say the cause of death or the magnitude, as Mattogno concluded.
If there are witnesses talking about 6 hectares, turn it all over, sift the ashes and determine how many bodies there were and be done with it. Anything less doesn't convince me.
I do not believe you would accept the results of such an undertaking.
Re: The murder mill Treblinka II
Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2025 3:48 pm
by Nessie
Fred Ziffel wrote: ↑Fri Mar 07, 2025 3:31 pm
This may be of help to calculate the amount of wood needed
What amount of heat loss occurs in open air burns?
See attached
Just because a denier cannot work out to their satisfaction how the cremations could have occurred as described, does not therefore mean no cremations.
Re: The murder mill Treblinka II
Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2025 3:58 pm
by TlsMS93
Nessie wrote: ↑Fri Mar 07, 2025 3:47 pm
I do not believe you would accept the results of such an undertaking.
It would be hard to deny if they found tons and tons of human ashes gathered from one area. Now, what was found does not allow us to say that millions died and this is a criminal investigation. We cannot extrapolate from there that more are there and we will not change it because a religious group has its own laws against desecration and with that we have to base ourselves on witnesses who can only claim that there was cremation but not the cause of death or the quantity.
Re: The murder mill Treblinka II
Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2025 4:53 pm
by Stubble
Nessie wrote: ↑Fri Mar 07, 2025 7:15 am
Stubble wrote: ↑Thu Mar 06, 2025 4:35 pm
Nessie wrote: ↑Thu Mar 06, 2025 11:45 am
Why are you thinking that 27, the approach to the gas chambers, would be visible from 15 and 17, the station square and platform where selections took place?
What are your thoughts on
this map?
KUDLIK, WIERNIK, TRAUTSOLT MAP
One of the first maps, drawn by survivors in 1945. One of the only survivor maps which - regarding the shape - corresponds with the site as it appears today as well as aerial photo evidence.
Source: Zdzislaw Lukaszkiewicz. Oboz stracen w Treblince. PIW, Warszawa 1946.
http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/maps.html
It just locates the main features. It does not evidence that the way to the gas chambers was clearly visible to people at the station.
The map is early, the map is a collaboration between 3 eyewitnesses, and the map shows the tube as straight.
Re: The murder mill Treblinka II
Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2025 5:33 pm
by Nessie
TlsMS93 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 07, 2025 3:58 pm
Nessie wrote: ↑Fri Mar 07, 2025 3:47 pm
I do not believe you would accept the results of such an undertaking.
It would be hard to deny if they found tons and tons of human ashes gathered from one area. Now, what was found does not allow us to say that millions died and this is a criminal investigation.
An area of 2 hectares, up to 7m deep, is 140,000m3, or the equivalent to 56 Olympic sized swimming pools. That is of an order that is way larger than any other mass grave site. Geophysical surveys around the memorial have found 11 large pits, 5 of which are in the area where witnesses located the mass graves. That allows everyone, except deniers, to say there are many corpses buried there.
We cannot extrapolate from there that more are there and we will not change it because a religious group has its own laws against desecration and with that we have to base ourselves on witnesses who can only claim that there was cremation but not the cause of death or the quantity.
No religion, or country, allows graves to be disturbed, without good reason and permissions.
There is a ton of physical, archaeological, witness, documentary and circumstantial evidence for mass killings and burials at TII, but you refuse to accept it and demand a mass desecration of the site. You will never convince any rational person that is needed.
Re: The murder mill Treblinka II
Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2025 7:07 pm
by Stubble
Nessie wrote: ↑Fri Mar 07, 2025 5:33 pm
TlsMS93 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 07, 2025 3:58 pm
Nessie wrote: ↑Fri Mar 07, 2025 3:47 pm
I do not believe you would accept the results of such an undertaking.
It would be hard to deny if they found tons and tons of human ashes gathered from one area. Now, what was found does not allow us to say that millions died and this is a criminal investigation.
An area of 2 hectares, up to 7m deep, is 140,000m3, or the equivalent to 56 Olympic sized swimming pools. That is of an order that is way larger than any other mass grave site. Geophysical surveys around the memorial have found 11 large pits, 5 of which are in the area where witnesses located the mass graves. That allows everyone, except deniers, to say there are many corpses buried there.
We cannot extrapolate from there that more are there and we will not change it because a religious group has its own laws against desecration and with that we have to base ourselves on witnesses who can only claim that there was cremation but not the cause of death or the quantity.
No religion, or country, allows graves to be disturbed, without good reason and permissions.
There is a ton of physical, archaeological, witness, documentary and circumstantial evidence for mass killings and burials at TII, but you refuse to accept it and demand a mass desecration of the site. You will never convince any rational person that is needed.
You don't by chance have links to the study showing and describing these pits, do you?